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Guild strengths and weaknesses?


Rakthen
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1 minute ago, admiralvorkraft said:

I've had lots of success with an all-keyword Family crew (Dita, Neph, Abuela, Franc, Santiago, Nino, and tech to taste). I've got a couple low model count Lucius crews that work very well - 2x Guardians, Doppel+LLC, 46+LLC for example. Augmented I don't have any particular takes on other than rating the Guardian much higher than the general meta did even before the Gage nerf (I don't play much Augmented).

 

My biggest issue with the Guardian is its Mv, but other than that its great.  Scatter and the Electroshock Trigger on the sword can really screw with people.  And min 3 damage is always nice.  Its just getting it into position thats the issue.

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I think a lot of the negativity around guild stems from GG0 and gg1. GG2, plus an errata that nerfed a lot of other factions without really harming us (yes, yes I know, Phiona) made life as a guild player a lot easier. 

As I see it the biggest problem guild has is a lack of inbuilt suits. We have a lot of actions that rely on having the right card in hand in order to get the full effect of the action. 

The other problem is a lack of a good cheap schemer, although false witness is quite solid. 

As for movement, I disagree that guild is behind here. Frontier is insanely mobile, family and augmented will often surprise people with their mobility and models like rider, grimwell and Lone marshal are really good at getting where they want to be. 

At least that is how I see it. 

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I will say, I didn't expect this to be such a hot button issue when I made this topic. I'm glad to see so many diffrent opinions though! I agree that other factions (particularly TT which I play) seem easier but I also feel like I'm not getting 100% of the game. Guild seems like I'll have a lot rougher time then when I use misaki or Yan Lo but I think I'm going to enjoy it. 

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6 hours ago, Angelshard said:

I think a lot of the negativity around guild stems from GG0 and gg1. GG2, plus an errata that nerfed a lot of other factions without really harming us (yes, yes I know, Phiona) made life as a guild player a lot easier. 

As I see it the biggest problem guild has is a lack of inbuilt suits. We have a lot of actions that rely on having the right card in hand in order to get the full effect of the action. 

The other problem is a lack of a good cheap schemer, although false witness is quite solid. 

As for movement, I disagree that guild is behind here. Frontier is insanely mobile, family and augmented will often surprise people with their mobility and models like rider, grimwell and Lone marshal are really good at getting where they want to be. 

At least that is how I see it. 

Crossing distances isn't that bad in Guild. Crossing terrain and models is hard. And while we can kill a model, it usually eats a turn :(

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@trikk crossing severe isn't that bad for us. Destructible Terrain we can remove. That leaves impassable, non-destructible terrain. If that terrain is say, a house, that is  5" wide it's only really leaping models that can cross it. That leaves some terrain, but not a lot. At least not where I come from. So I wouldn't say we're far behind in crossing terrain.

Moving through models isn't something most crews can do. We're probably the bottom of the barrel here though. 

As for killing models, I don't think I agree. We have some solid beaters in the faction. Mostly I think the problem is that our minions rely on triggers to really deal damage, Crit strike seems like a negative rather than a buff, keeping attack actions at worse Stats than they would be if the possibility of an additional damage wasn't there. 

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8 hours ago, Angelshard said:

I think a lot of the negativity around guild stems from GG0 and gg1. GG2, plus an errata that nerfed a lot of other factions without really harming us (yes, yes I know, Phiona) made life as a guild player a lot easier. 

Agreed - Seems to be a bit of a meme, more than anything else.

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1 hour ago, Angelshard said:

@trikk crossing severe isn't that bad for us. Destructible Terrain we can remove. That leaves impassable, non-destructible terrain. If that terrain is say, a house, that is  5" wide it's only really leaping models that can cross it. That leaves some terrain, but not a lot. At least not where I come from. So I wouldn't say we're far behind in crossing terrain.

Moving through models isn't something most crews can do. We're probably the bottom of the barrel here though. 

We have very little place effects and when you have a 5" wide house and incorp, you can still cut the corner and get 2-3" of push. Same goes for charging through walls etc.

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1 hour ago, trikk said:

We have very little place effects and when you have a 5" wide house and incorp, you can still cut the corner and get 2-3" of push. Same goes for charging through walls etc.

True, we have very little place. But we do have a lot of small pushes. Yes it's harder to use and requires more hoops than simply walking through the wall, but it can give several other advantages. I feel people focus too much on part of the terrain and forget that a lot of the board is still available and that a 2" Pathfinder push can do a lot. 

As for the charge through. It's not something most keywords can do. 

Yes I would love to have access to an insidious nightmare or a silurid, but I'd rather have models like pistolero or Santiago fixed so they work. 

But then again I have been focusing on frontier since March, so I have been playing the most mobile keyword (and in my opinion one of the strongest in faction) we have. 

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12 hours ago, trikk said:

Diving Charges, Incorp charges etc. are all something that make playing the game a lot easier.

I agree that it would be nice to have something like diving charge or mobile warrior or trample or any of the others. I also one hundred percent agree that they make life easier. 

I'm just saying that not having them isn't the biggest issue guild has, at least not in my view. 

Most of those abilities are already quite rare. Diving charge is on four models, two of them warriors. Trample is on five. Big models with Incorporeal is also quite rare. 

Mostly it's keywords that have it as a shtick, like urami or last blossom. 

In my view the main weaknesses in guild are an over reliance on unsuited triggers, a bit below average defensive stats (I blame LLC for this) and a lack of good scheming options, except for a few keywords. 

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On 7/18/2021 at 2:02 PM, Angelshard said:

@trikk crossing severe isn't that bad for us. Destructible Terrain we can remove. That leaves impassable, non-destructible terrain. If that terrain is say, a house, that is  5" wide it's only really leaping models that can cross it. That leaves some terrain, but not a lot. At least not where I come from. So I wouldn't say we're far behind in crossing terrain.

Moving through models isn't something most crews can do. We're probably the bottom of the barrel here though. 

As for killing models, I don't think I agree. We have some solid beaters in the faction. Mostly I think the problem is that our minions rely on triggers to really deal damage, Crit strike seems like a negative rather than a buff, keeping attack actions at worse Stats than they would be if the possibility of an additional damage wasn't there. 

Crossing severe isn't that bad for Frontier (or at all), but for Augmented, for example, its a different story.  The 2" Push from Transfer power becomes 1" and that makes a huge difference.  Say there was a 3" river that the crew needed to cross.  A Watcher could fly right over with no issue.  Virtually everything would use its Transfer Power Push and 1 Walk Action to get over to the other side and still be in the sever terrain (1" for the Push, 2.5" for the Walk at Mv 5, and with a 30mm base that leaves the back half of the base still hanging over the terrain).  If something is Impassable then they have to walk round.  This eats AP in a way that other factions just don't necessarily have to worry about.  

 

On open terrain, Guild can definitely shift, but it does feel like terrain plays a major part in whether they can get to where they need to go. 

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@theamazingmrg

Most keywords will rarely have more than ~2-3 models with flight, Incorporeal or unimpeded. 

If we really need it we can hire in a rider or mounted guard for unimpeded and ride with me. 

Again, I agree that terrain is a factor and that it would be nice to have more ways of negating it.

I just disagree that it's the biggest issue guild has. 

I also think people tend to undervalue the cumulative value of all those small (and big) pushes we have. 

Generally ~60% of the table is still free space. Yes that does mean we have to waste movement going around impassable or through severe. It also we're vulnerable to obey and other mechanics that moves into a bad position. But, at least in my experience, that is something that can be worked around. 

Plus we have some insane threat ranges and can often send an unactivated model surprisingly far. 

Also because all those pushes makes it very hard to lock down expensive models with some disposable model. 

Sure, we're never going to compete with the neverborn in the movement department, but we're at least as good as outcast and I haven't heard anyone complain that they can't navigate a table. 

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2 hours ago, Angelshard said:

@theamazingmrg

Most keywords will rarely have more than ~2-3 models with flight, Incorporeal or unimpeded. 

If we really need it we can hire in a rider or mounted guard for unimpeded and ride with me. 

Again, I agree that terrain is a factor and that it would be nice to have more ways of negating it.

I just disagree that it's the biggest issue guild has. 

I also think people tend to undervalue the cumulative value of all those small (and big) pushes we have. 

Generally ~60% of the table is still free space. Yes that does mean we have to waste movement going around impassable or through severe. It also we're vulnerable to obey and other mechanics that moves into a bad position. But, at least in my experience, that is something that can be worked around. 

Plus we have some insane threat ranges and can often send an unactivated model surprisingly far. 

Also because all those pushes makes it very hard to lock down expensive models with some disposable model. 

Sure, we're never going to compete with the neverborn in the movement department, but we're at least as good as outcast and I haven't heard anyone complain that they can't navigate a table. 

I'd agree that Guild's movement limitations are board and terrain dependent (and therefore maybe meta dependent, depending on whose terrain you're using?).  I also think Grimwell is a model that is massively underutilized 3 AP generalist, even if Midnight Stalker (OG and current) is a strictly better solo actor.

As for needing suits for combat, Nellie and Lucius both bring huge kits of card draw options to the table, which means that our beater masters just have to learn how to borrow from their friends.

Guild also has an insane amount of countertech for particular masters, models, and situations, once you invest in the whole faction. The Jury and Alison Dade in particular can shut down quite a few things, and Augmented has powerful answers to masters like Zoraida and English Ivan that have popular and powerful followings. We also have good models with exorcism triggers, and effects like Crowd Control on the Brutal Emissary that are very strong against particular things, if you get a good read on where and when to make sure they're in your crew. LLC is powerful in tight scoring mechanisms for Laugh Off, and No Prisoners can stop some offensive hazardous and shockwave actions cold. But all of that requires reading the board, the pool, and the opponent to a higher degree, or stumbling into it by good fortune and practice with the models.

Guild definitely rewards "playing the faction" over "playing the keyword," and seems to do so to a higher degree than other factions (Bayou, Neverborn, Arcanists, Thunders) which feels a bit awkward given how much we celebrate the M3E focus on keyword mechanics and playability, but Outcasts, ES, and to some extent Ressers seem to do the grab-bag approach to crew selection as well.

 

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11 hours ago, theamazingmrg said:

Crossing severe isn't that bad for Frontier (or at all), but for Augmented, for example, its a different story.  The 2" Push from Transfer power becomes 1" and that makes a huge difference.  Say there was a 3" river that the crew needed to cross.  A Watcher could fly right over with no issue.  Virtually everything would use its Transfer Power Push and 1 Walk Action to get over to the other side and still be in the sever terrain (1" for the Push, 2.5" for the Walk at Mv 5, and with a 30mm base that leaves the back half of the base still hanging over the terrain).  If something is Impassable then they have to walk round.  This eats AP in a way that other factions just don't necessarily have to worry about.  

 

On open terrain, Guild can definitely shift, but it does feel like terrain plays a major part in whether they can get to where they need to go. 

Wait, who plays a 3" river? Completely ruins the game IMO.

We do 1" rivers, and even those are really impactful. 

Our forests are wider, of course, but you can walk around those.

I guess vassal does a lot of that stuff because it imports its assets from other games, but IMO a 3" wide river is unreasonably large for Malifaux.

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6 minutes ago, NoisyAssassin said:

If you're buying your terrain instead of making it yourself, 3" is about the usual size for a river. I've seen 3 different products lately (and own 1) and I think they're 3", 3" and 3.5" respectively.

Ugh, I guess I'm super lucky with my club's terrain.

If playing with rivers that big that you HAVE to cross, I agree you need a way to bypass severe or you'll probably lose the game.

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1 hour ago, NoisyAssassin said:

If you're buying your terrain instead of making it yourself, 3" is about the usual size for a river. I've seen 3 different products lately (and own 1) and I think they're 3", 3" and 3.5" respectively.

An easy way to "fix" that is to use a variation of the elevation issue.

Rivers only count as Severe for movement when you're not touching either bank.

It does mean larger bases have an easier time, but as they get screwed on other terrains, that's fine.

Kinda makes sense that water isn't a real issue until it starts getting up above your knees before it's really a problem.

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