Nexus: An NPE like no other

[katadder]

I guess it was because his is limited to one model per activation so has to change targets. Also we are legion ignores LOS too

[Plaag]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well, Seeker is an interesting counter to Cadmus, watching one of the top tables for this month's series. All the chronicle auras are really an issue for Cadmus. And Mikhail can stop Nexus from targeting anyone else with Will of Cadmus negating last activation xD 

jedza just was very lucky this game, it doesnt prove anything

if someone want to try jedza vs cadmus-i will play

[im_open_to_suggestions]

2 hours ago, Plaag said:

jedza just was very lucky this game, it doesnt prove anything

if someone want to try jedza vs cadmus-i will play

are you the final boss for Nexus?

a victory against you is the only way for it to count?

[katadder]

20 minutes ago, im_open_to_suggestions said:

are you the final boss for Nexus?

a victory against you is the only way for it to count?

lets be honest, Plague has 2 settings, its OP broken or its crap. he doesnt do in between  

It's actually a bit bad when you see it everywhere, especially for new players coming in. Makes it feel more like a 40k or wmh community than the great community of faux.

[Math Mathonwy]

Ah yes, the great community of faux, where people are accused of losing on purpose in order to prove that something is OP for... reasons.   

[Plaag]

2 hours ago, im_open_to_suggestions said:

are you the final boss for Nexus?

a victory against you is the only way for it to count?

no-just need to look at common game cadmus vs nexus, not at luck thief game from jedza

[Maogrim]

I think Plaag is doing great work here, and he's ready to provide the data and test out all the settings that an opponent wants to bring against him.

I struggled with his 'Model XY is bad don't play it' attitude when I (re-)entered the forums but by now I really appreciate the time he's putting into Cadmus and hence showing the problems there are with the keyword.

Sure, he's not the best in giving an elaborate written analysis, but it's certainly much better than going around and accusing respected players of lying. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

9 hours ago, katadder said:

I guess it was because his is limited to one model per activation so has to change targets. Also we are legion ignores LOS too

And it is probably a flavour thing - they're all connected to the hive mind and don't need to see each other. But yeah, as Zoraida demonstrates, LOS is an important mechanical balance for the ability.

9 hours ago, Plaag said:

jedza just was very lucky this game, it doesnt prove anything

I'm not convinced that luck was a super big factor this game (if you flip 40 cards in a turn, some of them are going to be weak), but there were some bad flips/hands. But even in those cases, part of a crew's strength is being able to adapt to bad hands. My first hand for round 3 was a 10, 6, and 4 weaks, but I made it work. Nexus being overly reliant on good hands is a weakness that can be exploited (for instance, forcing tons of duels).

That said, the matchup should be taken with a grain of salt. NotSoEmpty even commented how poor their positioning was, and I don't think Nexus had to die as easily as he did. Not to mention just all the free aura pings for Seeker. So I can imagine the matchup may not be as favourable as it appeared from that one game.

7 hours ago, im_open_to_suggestions said:

are you the final boss for Nexus?

a victory against you is the only way for it to count?

Honestly, I kind of think this, even though it was a joke 😜

Plaag is a top tier player, and I would prefer that game balance strongly favour balancing crews around their strongest capabilities. Plaag is a good demonstration of what Cadmus can do if taken to its limit. So if no one can beat him, that's pretty damning IMO.

[Legislat]

Against Reva:

https://youtu.be/oC6CxROb2CQ

[Korrok]

34 minutes ago, Legislat said:

Against Reva:

https://youtu.be/oC6CxROb2CQ

I'm at work and can't watch atm. Cliff notes? 

[Legislat]

Better ask the actual participants. Seems like 8-0 for Nexus. Called it on turn 3 I think.

[Math Mathonwy]

Reva player lost so hard that he decided to switch away from Malifaux to Infinity since he didn't see any point in playing competitive play with the Explorers around.

[Maniacal_cackle]

8 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Reva player lost so hard that he decided to switch away from Malifaux to Infinity since he didn't see any point in playing competitive play with the Explorers around.

No comment on whether that's an overreaction to this particular game, but that is the natural logic for a game IF the unbalance is as bad as it appears it is for Explorer's. Jury still out a bit.

[DonQOT]

Could a fix for some of the issues be a simple cost increase? I note that filling up on all of Cadmus super desirable henchman and enforcers plus an expensive versatile like Mr. N or the Emissary still leaves you will a third of your soulstones left to play with.

All of this in keyword single models also only cost 8 which is on the low end for the almost certainly overtuned faction. Bumping them up to 9 (or maybe 10 with something extra yummy like Archivist) seems like it would go a long way towards slowing down the oppression engine that is this crew. 

I think this might be a good way to get a quick and dirty nerf out the door without messing with the fun themes and mechanics of this crew.

Just an observation from a relative newcomer who knows the next side of nothing.

[Maniacal_cackle]

23 minutes ago, DonQOT said:

Could a fix for some of the issues be a simple cost increase? I note that filling up on all of Cadmus super desirable henchman and enforcers plus an expensive versatile like Mr. N or the Emissary still leaves you will a third of your soulstones left to play with.

All of this in keyword single models also only cost 8 which is on the low end for the almost certainly overtuned faction. Bumping them up to 9 (or maybe 10 with something extra yummy like Archivist) seems like it would go a long way towards slowing down the oppression engine that is this crew. 

I think this might be a good way to get a quick and dirty nerf out the door without messing with the fun themes and mechanics of this crew.

Just an observation from a relative newcomer who knows the next side of nothing.

Good thought!

Certainly Archivist at ten stones would discourage OOK play which would be nice.

One issue is that whatever the changes are, they need to be play tested. And I imagine playtesting resources have been redeployed to all the other broken (but possibly not as broken as Cadmus) stuff.

[santaclaws01]

13 hours ago, Plaag said:

jedza just was very lucky this game, it doesnt prove anything

if someone want to try jedza vs cadmus-i will play

Since I was the jedza player here I'll also give my thoughts.

Firstly, I don't think his list was good. The Effigy wasn't a great choice, and Meredith without flush with cash left her vulnerable, the only reason she was dead turn 3 instead of turn 2 is because my opponent left Nexus equally vulnerable, so I dedicated Sophie(who went in on Nexus at the end of turn 1), Mikhail, the Damned(who also attacked Meredith twice thanks to top-decking Pouncing Strike both times) and then finished off with the Grave Goo. Additionally double hidden agenda on nests isn't a great choice into Jedza, it just gives me a couple pings of damage early that I can use to start working early chronicles.

Luck did also play a pretty hefty factor in hammering home his positioning mistakes. Turn 1 was the only good hand he had, and after turn 2 he lost his main card draw engine and he was rarely able to actually force hits through onto my models with the Archivist. He killed my own effigy turn 2(but needed to use both actions because of the black joker), and then after that he only hit twice, and both times I let the hit go through because I had a low tome I didn't care about discarding in hand and knew my model wasn't in danger of being killed. 

Those kinds of mistakes are already not good to be making in a high level game, and they just got beaten down even more between my knowing Cadmus and what to avoid and where to apply pressure in the crew and my deck being fairly hot and his being colder than Texas was last week.

[DonQOT]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Good thought!

Certainly Archivist at ten stones would discourage OOK play which would be nice.

One issue is that whatever the changes are, they need to be play tested. And I imagine playtesting resources have been redeployed to all the other broken (but possibly not as broken as Cadmus) stuff.

Oh yes. I meant to include the discouraging effect a price hike would have on ook use of Cadmus in my first post.

Seems like Archivist ends up on a lot of other keywords' lists and that just seems wrong from a design perspective. I feel like OOK should really only be encouraged for tech choices and some really clever niche builds. When most players have an OOK model in their standard list, something must have gone wrong. But Archivist if just too good not to take at his price point.

I'd hate to see Cadmus be changed in too many other ways. As I intimated, they have a really cool gimmick that has a strong marriage of theme and mechanic and I worry a lot of the prospective changes would really take away from that. Hence, rather than taking their toys away from them, just make it more difficult for them to have them all at once.

But I'll stop harping on about it now.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Has anyone played Cadmus in GG0? I can't imagine they're great on plant explosives. Corrupted idols they would probably smash out of the park every time, though (initiative advantage AND tons of health AND last activation).

[Plaag]

7 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Good thought!

Certainly Archivist at ten stones would discourage OOK play which would be nice.

One issue is that whatever the changes are, they need to be play tested. And I imagine playtesting resources have been redeployed to all the other broken (but possibly not as broken as Cadmus) stuff.

it will noy change anything-he will be the same broken model

[Plaag]

6 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Since I was the jedza player here I'll also give my thoughts.

Firstly, I don't think his list was good. The Effigy wasn't a great choice, and Meredith without flush with cash left her vulnerable, the only reason she was dead turn 3 instead of turn 2 is because my opponent left Nexus equally vulnerable, so I dedicated Sophie(who went in on Nexus at the end of turn 1), Mikhail, the Damned(who also attacked Meredith twice thanks to top-decking Pouncing Strike both times) and then finished off with the Grave Goo. Additionally double hidden agenda on nests isn't a great choice into Jedza, it just gives me a couple pings of damage early that I can use to start working early chronicles.

Luck did also play a pretty hefty factor in hammering home his positioning mistakes. Turn 1 was the only good hand he had, and after turn 2 he lost his main card draw engine and he was rarely able to actually force hits through onto my models with the Archivist. He killed my own effigy turn 2(but needed to use both actions because of the black joker), and then after that he only hit twice, and both times I let the hit go through because I had a low tome I didn't care about discarding in hand and knew my model wasn't in danger of being killed. 

Those kinds of mistakes are already not good to be making in a high level game, and they just got beaten down even more between my knowing Cadmus and what to avoid and where to apply pressure in the crew and my deck being fairly hot and his being colder than Texas was last week.

would u like to play with me?

[belorey]

So what if they change this:

Archivist:

-Increase his cost +1ss to 9

-Reduce Acane Shielded +1

-Reduce Ill Omens +1

-Change the Inaudible Wishpers wording to: Target suffers 2/3/4 damage. If the target is enemy must either discard a  or this model draw a card.

Meredith:

-Change A Funguns Among Us wording: Once per Turn. When this model Activates It may remove a corpse or web marker within 4" to choose a friendly Eyes and Ears within 4" to Replace with a Berserker Husk with the Evolution Upgrade attached.

-Evolution Upgrade: the first time this upgrade is attached the model heals 3.

[Maniacal_cackle]

5 minutes ago, belorey said:

So what if they change this:

Archivist:

-Increase his cost +1ss to 9

-Reduce Acane Shielded +1

-Change the Inaudible Wishpers wording to: Target suffers 2/3/4 damage. If the target is enemy must either discard a  or this model draw a card.

It'd be cleaner to just make it enemy only for the attack. But yeah, this could work too. Ill omens is a bit too high as well IMO.

Although really I think the biggest offender is having such good triggers coupled with siphon power, but I guess that is core to the model.

6 minutes ago, belorey said:

Meredith:

-Change A Funguns Among Us wording: Once per Turn. When this model Activates It may remove a corpse or web marker within 4" to choose a friendly Eyes and Ears within 4" to Replace with a Berserker Husk with the Evolution Upgrade attached.

-Evolution Upgrade: the first time this upgrade is attached the model heals 3.

Plaags builds don't even double summon the husk, so not sure that particular combo needs a nerf (especially if the crew's card draw is nerfed). Every extra husk requires another 9 as well as the normal resources.

Not sure what the evolution upgrade is doing. Do you mean if no other husks have the upgrade, it heals?

Regardless, would be good to have it playtested!

 

[belorey]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

It'd be cleaner to just make it enemy only for the attack. But yeah, this could work too. Ill omens is a bit too high as well IMO.

I was thinking maybe just Ill Omens +1 too but i forget the add. 😅

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Although really I think the biggest offender is having such good triggers coupled with siphon power, but I guess that is core to the model.

Yeah, i think all those changes should be enought. It would become a 9ss model and should have some shenanigans.

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Plaags builds don't even double summon the husk, so not sure that particular combo needs a nerf (especially if the crew's card draw is nerfed). Every extra husk requires another 9 as well as the normal resources.

Maybe not, but with Cryptologist you can "summon" a second (or even third) Husk and that shouldn't be possible.

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Not sure what the evolution upgrade is doing. Do you mean if no other husks have the upgrade, it heals?

This is personal opinión. No summoned models should be placed on table without an upgrade. And is worst if you can do just activating withing 4". The upgrade is, more or less, how Meredith can heal the Husk after the replace. Nothing really change there, only that they would heal because of the Upgrade and no from Meredith.

[santaclaws01]

34 minutes ago, belorey said:

This is personal opinión. No summoned models should be placed on table without an upgrade. And is worst if you can do just activating withing 4". The upgrade is, more or less, how Meredith can heal the Husk after the replace. Nothing really change there, only that they would heal because of the Upgrade and no from Meredith.

This upgrade isn't even a summon upgrade though. Also, having the ability attach an upgrade already makes it unusable by Cryptologists, so once per turn is unnecessary.

 

4 hours ago, Plaag said:

would u like to play with me?

I'm firmly in the cadmus is too strong camp, so don't really need any convincing if that's why you're asking.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I agree summons should all have summon upgrades, but it'd be a bit weird to do it for Meredith and not for all summons.

And I don't like the design of summoning 10+ stones a turn, but I'm not sure that means it merits a nerf now that it is actually released (unless people are also dominating with the Cryptologist plan).

I do think there should be some awesome stuff to do with Cryptologists in the faction. It'd be a bit weird to have a TN that requires a 9, and then have nothing to do with it other than draw a card...