Dreamer?

[Bass Creed]

One in our group plays him. Admittedly just got back into the game with 3e. But none of us understand Dreamer from a balance context.  His crews just seem on another level. We have Guild, Arcanists and TT. What are we missing?  

[Antipodean]

I play both Guild(Marshal, Guard and Augmented mostly) and NB (Nightmare). Guild has some really powerful anti Dreamer tech, if someone is running NB I'll lean towards Marshal/Justice. 2 Exorcists and Lone Marshall are a Ruthless gunline nightmare for nightmares, and Jury makes the Dreamers summons hurt even before they hit the table. WP7 fast beater leader is nice too. You can't do much about the deck slimming on their side, but they have to close in to force the WP duel to get them on the table. Dreamer himself is squishy if your opponent over commits them. 

Question is... what models do they normally use/summon? All in keyword or are they teching in? What schemes and strat do they use/do you use against them?

[Bass Creed]

Insidious Madness and Stitched spam. Even minions are 7 wound incorporeal, or 6 wound armored. And the card manipulation makes rounds 3-5 unbearable regardless of schemes and strats. Exorcists and Jury are a good idea. Thanks. I was just wondering if there is a balance issue seen by others. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Bass Creed said:

Insidious Madness and Stitched spam. Even minions are 7 wound incorporeal, or 6 wound armored. And the card manipulation makes rounds 3-5 unbearable regardless of schemes and strats. Exorcists and Jury are a good idea. Thanks. I was just wondering if there is a balance issue seen by others. 

Overall, Dreamer is considered one of the best masters in the game. Definitely don't feel bad for struggling with it!

That said, he can be beat and it's not like people are just smashing tournaments with him. So keep at it, you'll find a way to take him down

[regleant]

Funny enough, the guy in my group who plays Dreamer hates him because the Summoning mechanic is too convoluted. First you have to succeed in the Summon (required number and suit), THEN your opponent needs to fail a Willpower dual and that's where the summoned model appears. If you run high-willpower models and keep away from your own WP offense, it really does limit how and where the summoned model hits the table. This is much easier for a Misaki or Asami crew in TT. 

 

Coming from Guild, I think either Lady J or Sonia C could out-gun Dreamer and drop his crew much faster than he could replace them. But I haven't personally seen that match-up to confirm.

[Dark Reaper]

Pale Rider and Lone Marshal are your best friends here. Ruthless shooting, irreducible dmg from PR and anti-summon from LM helps a ton.

[Trample]

You can play the attrition game right alongside him with Dashel as well. I would make sure you take out Lord Chompy with an executioner dive on turn 1 if you're doing that, but otherwise you can keep up with the summons and use similar tactics. A rifleman (or two) could focus on the daydreams. You have ruthless models in wardens. You have some take the hit, but you may want to add Phiona into your crew with LLC to help further protect your key models. He's going to be sculpting his deck with many of his models, but you do have card draw in a Dashel crew.  

[Adran]

I would probably say it is a two fold issue. Firstly, the dreamer is a fairly strong master, secondly I think his playstyle is fairly easy to pick up, and the counters to him are harder to pick up, meaning that for newer players starting together, the dreamer player can get good faster than the opponents, and faster than they can learn how to deal with him for a while. 

The dreamer is a master that probably likes the end game best. Both in his ability to summon to replace loses in the war of attrition, and his ability to give him a better deck. Try and pressure him early in the game, and prevent him beign able to build up to a strong late game. That might be by killing the models with Lucid dreams, or by trying to ensure you don't fail willpower duels, so the summoned models can't unbury, it depends on what the dreamer player is doing. But you can't really afford to let the dreamer play the game he wants, you need to disrupt much more than you need to against other masters. 

 

[SEV]

Pressure him (as Adran said)! If he goes for Lucid spamming (as you suggest), try to kill the daydream with Ancient Pact. Chompy is also really squishy if you have a way around his terrifying (ruthless is always good against Nightmare).

Usually Dreamer himself is well protect going for him will be alot of ap (and you might fall in to a trap)... But obviously if you see an opportunity to kill him take it!

I agree with @Dark Reaper : Lone Marshall is an awesome model against Nightmare. 

[Vessien]

This topic interests me quite a bit, since I am also kind of new to the game and in our playgroup we have a similar issue. To the date we have not been able to beat the Dreamer, but we are getting closer now and the games are becoming interesting and enjoyable at least. I was actually thinking of openning a similar thread in TT forum, hehe.

 

In the line with what has already been said, I think it is important to bring a ruthless long range threat so he cannot go around freely. And try to position properly, so he has to expose his crew if he wants to make his summons unbury.

Besides, I'd suggest you play the game and not the brawl, because you are never going to win a long extended fight and killing the Dreamer is pretty hard (incorporeal, serene countenance and protected are not something easy to breakthrough). Taking that into account, learn the schemes and strategies and try to get your points early and deny some of his, because, let's face it, you are going to be overwhelmed late game.

Also, keeping an eye on what he is discarding with Lucid Dream can give you a clue of how hot is his deck at any moment, mostly in early turns (late game his deck is always hot xD).

Summing up (looking forward to extend and improve it):

• Tech against him (ruthless, summoning, strong late game).
• Bring long distance threats.
• Position properly.
• Play the game and avoid the long (losing) brawl.
• Score early, deny late.

 

That all being said, an errata would be nice for Nightmare keeword, not much, just a bit, something... 😭😋

 

Let us know how it goes and if suggestions worked please! =D

[admiralvorkraft]

1 hour ago, Vessien said:

That all being said, an errata would be nice for Nightmare keeword, not much, just a bit, something... 😭😋

 

Get rid of Fiendish Gamble. That's probably all it would take to limit the degree of deck sculpting to a sane level. 

And TT shouldn't have that much trouble with Nightmare - you have 11 Ruthless models including five melee beaters; Lone Swordsman, Ototo, Bill Algren, Izamu, Mr. Graves. Plus a decent shooter (Sidir) and a phenomenal one with admittedly shit Wp (Fuhatsu). If you take Izamu and he dies one of your other models becomes Ruthless. 

McCabe brings a ton of indirect damage and early game pressure to the table. Qi and Gong put Dreamer under resource pressure (mostly in early turns) and take advantage of the pass tokens they'll get from the summons. Yan Lo ramps up to the point that Dreamer can't steam roll him in later turns. Oni can keep up with the summoning and do indirect damage. Monk has Chi tokens and, I mean, Shenlong. Last Blossom has first turn pressure and Shadow Markers. Foundry has first turn pressure and Vent Steam. Honeypot has Rig the Deck and a huge amount of incidental ping damage...

I would honestly be reluctant to bring Dreamer into 10T for the same reasons I wouldn't bring Jack Daw. 

[SEV]

1 hour ago, Vessien said:

That all being said, an errata would be nice for Nightmare keeword, not much, just a bit, something... 😭😋

Is it really needed? He might be a big threat on the kitchen table, but he's not storming the tournament scene... I won't denied he's a strong master with a strong keyword, but I think Wyrd have to be really careful with their errata... Without any strong data or, at least, a consensus among player, I don't see why Dreamer should be debuff compare to any other strong masters.

Also summoners tend to win the long game... Lucid Dreams is fine bit it's a do nothing ability that doesn't generate any kind of game resources (except with Stitches). In most cas a straight card draw would be stronger. 

Dreamer is definitely beatable. It will just feel a little more hopeless when you're not winning (this can be NPE for some as it's often the case when you're playing against control, but that doesn't justify a change in itself imo).

[Vessien]

43 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

Get rid of Fiendish Gamble. That's probably all it would take to limit the degree of deck sculpting to a sane level. 

And TT shouldn't have that much trouble with Nightmare(...)

I somewhat agree with one of the issues being the Fiendish Gamble action, but for me is just the sum of it's parts that is too strong.

 

I play just Misaki for the moment and I have tried bringing many ruthles and even a Charm Warder. But I think I will open later a thread in TT to discuss this, since I am glad to read (and try) suggestions to beat that kido of Dreamer and his little big friend ^^

 

14 minutes ago, SEV said:

Is it really needed? He might be a big threat on the kitchen table, but he's not storming the tournament scene... I won't denied he's a strong master with a strong keyword, but I think Wyrd have to be really careful with their errata... Without any strong data or, at least, a consensus among player, I don't see why Dreamer should be debuff compare to any other strong masters.

Also summoners tend to win the long game... Lucid Dreams is fine bit it's a do nothing ability that doesn't generate any kind of game resources (except with Stitches). In most cas a straight card draw would be stronger. 

Dreamer is definitely beatable. It will just feel a little more hopeless when you're not winning (this can be NPE for some as it's often the case when you're playing against control, but that doesn't justify a change in itself imo).

I agree with you in that Dreamer is beatable, and I am no way in tournament level. However, it just feels too easy and too rewarding to me.

Of course, I am sure erratas are not based on newbies cries like mine , I was just complaining a bit, hehe😅 

 

@Bass Creed returning to your thread topic, I find stitched is kind of slow and I try to avoid it most of the times (my colleague brings just one most of the time) or just shoot it down if there are no other primary targets (like Chompi).

As for the insidious, they are a headache, I find very difficult to avoid  them and they almost always take more actions than I feel it is worth to kill them. However, if you do have to kill one, try and do it as fast as possible to avoid it healing itself.

[extremor]

I play Dreamer myself and against Dreamer I always advise towards  mobility! chose schemes that can be scored by running around dropping markers. Use models that get out of engagement easily or can push others out of engagement. Kill his daydreams with ancient pact cause they are very essential. And if he brings widow weaver: kill it or use tech to remove the webs. Pressure him by scoring early and when his slow mechanics come into play you have to lead. So the Dreamer has to decide: killing or scoring. Without the AP-Daydreams he is slow and will react instead of acting and leading the game. 
That’s the ideal situation. Work towards it. It ain’t easy. I know...

[NoahScape]

Dreamer is a very strong master with a lot of good models. Alps, IMs, and stitched are all really good models that do different things, which is a really good reason as to why Dreamer is so good. Take into account lord chompy bits is an amazing totem, Bowman is an auto-include model that is annoying and slightly over-tuned, and the crew just has a ton of options. 

Sometimes its more advantageous to just slow the crew down with speed bumps then it is to try to be the hammer. 

[74legion]

When 10 thunders have a unit(Fuhatsu) that shoots at 12 with an invisibility upgrade this is not a problem.  If neverborn has a unit or a mechanic that I don't like, then it should be broken and rendered unplayable.

[74legion]

Fans of shouting about the nerf of opponents can achieve that these opponents simply will not be. Since they do not want to play with the shit that slowly but surely will turn those models that they loved. And then you will play a very friendly company of those about whom you did not shout

[Adran]

Are you alright? Whilst I can agree with your sentiments, this thread doesn't really seem to be one that is just calling for nerfs. 

[extremor]

@74legion there are a lot of threads around here discussing nerfs and buffs. I completely understand the motivation since I love Lucius and consider him very hard or impossible to play only in keyword... I heard Seamus is another example. I wish for wyrd to balance/buff some of these crews but I think this also means nerfing some others.  
BUT: I also think that Threads like this that ask for advice winning against a particular master/keyword are essential. Getting advice from others and consider new tactics often is a more pleasing way to play instead of waiting for the next errata. I struggled hard against kirai for a long time and finally understood her crew so lately she wasn’t that much of a problem to me. That’s why I shared my experience as a Dreamer player. Even though I also think he could use a nerf!!! 

[NoahScape]

On 2/3/2021 at 8:53 PM, Bass Creed said:

One in our group plays him. Admittedly just got back into the game with 3e. But none of us understand Dreamer from a balance context.  His crews just seem on another level. We have Guild, Arcanists and TT. What are we missing?  

Also, what masters/factions are you playing? Dominate your friends by asking for advice here and show them who's boss! lol

 

[74legion]

Just try to swap with your opponent for 1 or 2 games of masters let the game drag on you will understand what kind of master it is how it is played what are its disadvantages

[Dark Reaper]

You are coming off as very hostile in this thread, even if swapping crews could be a good idea. There are ways to play against Dreamer, no doubt, but he is a strong master that will need some clever counter picking, which is what this thread is all about. 

I have had very good success against Dreamer by picking good, ruthless, ranged models. I like Dashel, Steward and Lawyer(s) to support Pale Rider and Lone Marshal. You should have easy access to focus (foul mouthed motivation, which helps as moderate dmg will do so much more than weak against a plethora of armoured or incorporeal models. 

[Bass Creed]

Played to a 6-6 tie with LJ, Scales, Pale Rider, Lone Marshal, 2 Domadores and a DM. general strategy was avoid and ignore his models, scheme and strat, pick off scheme running IMs when and if possible. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

5 hours ago, Bass Creed said:

Played to a 6-6 tie with LJ, Scales, Pale Rider, Lone Marshal, 2 Domadores and a DM. general strategy was avoid and ignore his models, scheme and strat, pick off scheme running IMs when and if possible. 

Yesssss, victory next!!!

[Yore Huckleberry]

Dreamer is one of the few matchups where I'll consider bringing a Death Marshal Recruiter to the table. It can back up two ruthless exorcists and turn them into Death Marshals when they finally die, keeping your attrition pace up decently, and you can attack the buried summons directly.

The card cycling engine is tough to deal with.