Stitched Together. Gamble your Life rework suggestions.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Okay, I reviewed masters and their defensive abilities. I thought this would be interesting information, because it indicates a general idea of how much defensive tech Stitched bypass.

Devastating
These have their defensive tech completely bypassed and have a decent (>50%) chance to be killed in one activation with two severes.

• Colette
• Lucius Mattheson
• Dreamer
• Youko

Major
These have their defensive tech bypassed and are majorly vulnerable, but not quite as devastatingly as the above.

• Rasputina
• Captain Zipp
• Som'Er Teeth Jones
• Pandora
• Kirai
• Molly
• Prof. Von Schtook
• Jakob Lynch

Moderate
These have a significant amount of defensive tech bypassed.

• Marcus
• Ophelia LaCroix
• The Brewmaster
• Ulix Turner
• Wong
• Nellie Cochrane
• Asami (bypasses her tech, but she heals exceptionally well)
• Shenlong

Doesn't include models like Toni Ironsides, or Euripedes. These have their tech bypassed, but have other factors mitigating that (such as high health). Nor does it include commonly bypassed tech (such as defensive triggers against melee attacks). It also excludes stuff that seems super minor (such as Basse's 2" push, but I did count some 3" pushes where they seemed important). Zoraida seemed borderline as bypassing her trigger is huge AND her huge willpower, but all ranged abilities do that, so I left it off. Seamus is borderline as his terrifying is so crucial to his survival, but anyone can bypass it with a low cheat. Nekima has her stuff bypassed, but I left her off.

And that's just masters! They are supposed to be some of the toughest models to kill in the game.

Masters are only one part of the game, but this is hopefully indicative. There are what, 40-50 masters in the game? And Stitched significantly bypass the defensive tech of over 20 of them. That'd probably be fine if you could only run one stitched. But being able to run three just means that you have enormous threat coverage.

Their primary option against stitched is "just don't get hit by the model that can be placed anywhere on the table." This doesn't seem like 'counterplay' to me. It seems like generically bypassing an enormous amount of defensive tech in one ability. It also can have a warping effect on the format ("just don't choose those masters into Neverborn" becomes pretty format warping if the list of masters is large enough).

So I've changed my mind from my initial view, because...

• I had not played Stitched against the above crews (or where I had, I had not realised that the master was so vulnerable).
• But in theory I can see why they'd be so devastating.
• The experience of others in this thread who have played those games say they find Stitched overpowered (even if they are the ones playing stitched)

[santaclaws01]

8 hours ago, Ogid said:

I'm curious, why is Collodi better than other tanky crews like Hoffman, Schtook or Yan-Lo?

Yan-Lo is also considered one of the best masters by most everyone who has played with or against him.

But the main difference with Collodi is the amount of control he brings to the table while also having his two biggest beaters also having a ton of mobility on their own before you add on Inhuman Reflexes.

[Tors]

Each if those models is able to modifie the damage flip of prevent damage.

Masters aren't supposed to be the thoughest models 

Those defensive techs are ignored by every instance of indirect damage or area damage, too [which NVB as a whole Faction don't have on a significant scale (Black Blood and a few sleeping strikes)]. Add the Fact, that not one! NVB model has irreducible damage and ignoring targeting-bound defensive on one model doesn't seems like the worlds end.

[Adran]

9 hours ago, Ogid said:

So certain models having unique and cool things and adapting is part of the game; but that not applies to stitched .

Stitched is far from hitting as hard as the best beaters in the game, a true beater well supported is much more dangerous and can threaten a bigger area than a stitched, and the niche situations could be adressed with smart play and versatile/OOK picks. The only case where I doubt is in Nightmare where the unbury in b2b may put vulnerable models next to him; but again it's about playing and picking with them in mind.

This I think is one place where you seem almost blind. The stitched are hitting with a powerful damage track, on an attack the opponent can't cheat to defend against, and even if the result is a tie, the stitched is capable of cheating the damage flip. That's all very powerful stuff.  How many models out there are likely to be able to do 10 damage in their activation. The stitched needs a small amount of luck (Tieing or winning a random card flip ) and 2 severs in hand. Tell me any other model that needs that little effort to be able to deal 10 damage. Sure, the stitched may hurt itself instead but that's not something the opponent has any control over, so from a counter play point of view you have to treat the model as able to deal 10 damage in its activation to something that is 6" away as long as it can see them. You also need to consider that the keyword has pushes so you can't just end your activation 7" away and be safe from the second gamble.

 

DF 6, armour +1 and multiple ways to heal (granted not entirely in this models control) as well as downsides for the most common form of attack . Very few models can seriously consider killing this in 1 hit. It also comes with as many wounds as it costs. This is a very tanky model for its cost.

It is also a relatively trivial summon for 2 different models, so killing it doesn't automatically deal with it as a problem.

 

 

You also seem to think a range 6 attack is poor. It is not. Sure its a shorter range than most guns, but it doesn't contain any of the disadvantages of it being a  action. It is a much longer range than any  and its of a similar threat range to most models charge and . (Again without the downsides of having to actually move the model and the risk of terrain, or ways to protect or prevent it happening, although without the upsides of letting you move and do it).

Go and look how many ways for a model to damage something 6" away from them that don't suffer all the downsides of . It is quite rare.

 

In my mind the negative play aspect of the stitched is that there doesn't seem to be counter play to what it does. A single stitched activation with no support is capable of dealing 5-8 damage to one of my models with almost no counterplay.

You appear focused on trying to change the model but without actually changing the model.

Your Hans Example appears quite flawed as it assumes that Hans wins 2 duels when the stats are equal. That's a much lower chance than the stitched winning 2 gambles in a turn because of the ability of the stitched to cheat the cards in a normal duel.

The chance of a blessed of December killing a stitched in 1 activation is pretty low. Its not impossible, but you are likely to need to get multiple hits and doing moderate or better damage on negative damage flips at least once. (Holding a high  makes it a lot easier, but you need that to be higher than the highest card the stitched holds for your focus attack to let you do 7 damage)

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 hours ago, Tors said:

Each if those models is able to modifie the damage flip of prevent damage.

Through soulstones use, yes, but then the stitched crew is gaining a significant resource advantage. The overall point isn't that they can kill anything (you CAN prevent it). It is that the damage ignores so much and is so easy to generate that avoiding it costs the enemy far more than it cost to generate the damage.

4 hours ago, Tors said:

Masters aren't supposed to be the thoughest models 

Killing masters is generally at least supposed to be non-trivial. I can't think of any masters that don't take significant work to kill if you're not bypassing their defensive tech.

4 hours ago, Tors said:

Those defensive techs are ignored by every instance of indirect damage or area damage, too [which NVB as a whole Faction don't have on a significant scale (Black Blood and a few sleeping strikes)]. Add the Fact, that not one! NVB model has irreducible damage and ignoring targeting-bound defensive on one model doesn't seems like the worlds end.

Indirect damage from blasts and splash can be avoided a lot more easily (just space out your models), and will commonly do 1 damage, not five.

Stitched can more consistently get their damage off AND do more damage than blast attacks. Lacking irreducible damage is perhaps an issue, but the nightmare keyword already ignores armor and incorporeal, some of the most common things you need irreducible for.

[Maniacal_cackle]

11 minutes ago, Adran said:

You also seem to think a range 6 attack is poor. It is not. 

Interesting fact: the ~13 inch circle the stitched has with its 6 inch attack represents ~10% of the board.

Add in the movement from the stitched, and it threatens over 1/3 of the board if I haven't miscalculated (ignoring terrain).

3 stitched can cover nearly an entire empty board with their threat ranges, I believe.

Obviously there is going to be some limitations to that (though cover and concealment don't matter), but it does give a rough idea of how massive their range is.

[Ogid]

8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I was playing Pandora, so avoiding my models with stun was not an option (18" threat range on stunned, or 13 with a focus to get past concealing).

I had to work for it, but I was able to force it through with some work. In fact, I had to work so hard for it I ended up losing.

With stitched, the work is much less.

I'd love to see an stitched chasing Zipp XDD.

8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

The double GYL doesn't always go off, but you can almost always force it if you want to. Two severes plus a card to cheat a failed duel in hand is enough to give you better than a 50% chance to deal 10 damage in an activation. That's pretty good odds. And of course, that ignores the more common case where you can give yourself over a 90% chance to deal 3-5.

And it isn't that this guarantees insta-kills. It is that is so dangerous and consistent enough that the enemy has to play around it extensively, and the stitched crew doesn't even necessarily need to do anything. Its mere existence warps how opponents have to play. Which again is acceptable to a degree, but I now think stitched go too far.

Let's asume GYL has a range and the one playing versus him know what it does. And a lot of beaters in the "more common case" are able to put a lot more hurt than an stitched.

For example, the Arachnid Swarm, can nimble+charge 11, 10 to b2b. In b2b it has an stat 7 attack with  to damage 2/3/5 track AND built-in Onslaught (so while stitched will deal an average of 4 damage, the swarm can deal a average of 16). There are 2 of these in most Archanist lists and I've heard much less complain than with stitched.

7 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Devastating
These have their defensive tech completely bypassed and have a decent (>50%) chance to be killed in one activation with two severes.

• Colette
• Lucius Mattheson
• Dreamer
• Youko

All of these only needs Focused+1, which there are plenty of support models that can give. And maybe some other tool to bypass the defensive mechanism (stun/ignore df triggers for Colette, a push like Shove Aside to put Serena out of range before killing Dreamer). A decent player is going to bring those, Colette will have a harder time versus a mobile becater with Focused and a way to bypass her Df trigger than versus stitcheds. A dreamer can be killed by a Nephillim rush for example, I'd love to see an stitched rush. Any player who know the other crew will include tech versus these so their defenses will get threatened anyway.

And talking about irreductible damage there is the pale rider who can set up a double devastation able to kill dreamer with very little counterplay from 20''; But Players take that in count and prevent it to happen.

7 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Masters are only one part of the game, but this is hopefully indicative. There are what, 40-50 masters in the game? And Stitched significantly bypass the defensive tech of over 20 of them. That'd probably be fine if you could only run one stitched. But being able to run three just means that you have enormous threat coverage.

Their primary option against stitched is "just don't get hit by the model that can be placed anywhere on the table." This doesn't seem like 'counterplay' to me. It seems like generically bypassing an enormous amount of defensive tech in one ability. It also can have a warping effect on the format ("just don't choose those masters into Neverborn" becomes pretty format warping if the list of masters is large enough).

So I've changed my mind from my initial view, because...

• I had not played Stitched against the above crews (or where I had, I had not realised that the master was so vulnerable).
• But in theory I can see why they'd be so devastating.
• The experience of others in this thread who have played those games say they find Stitched overpowered (even if they are the ones playing stitched)

Notice most of the master in your list are backliners that are very hard to attack with an stitched or have ways to kill them fast, from a safe distance or outmaneouver them. If you asume every squishy model in the game will fight an stitched in a 3x3 cage then they looks awesome, but taking in count real scenarios and players using well their tools, they are manageable. There are much more threatening models to those masters than Stitcheds or Masters that can force worse situations for them. That theory is quite flawed imo.

And about the experience... check again the examples and you'll see a pattern of "stitched is near of my vulnerable model and I didn't include anything to kill/displace them or to prevent its damage, and then a double GYL with max damage happens"... take them with a pinch of salt; things like that may happen, but it shouldn't happen all the time. There are also playes saying the swarm or archie are perfectly balanced models, it doesn't mean they are.

51 minutes ago, Adran said:

This I think is one place where you seem almost blind. The stitched are hitting with a powerful damage track, on an attack the opponent can't cheat to defend against, and even if the result is a tie, the stitched is capable of cheating the damage flip. That's all very powerful stuff.  How many models out there are likely to be able to do 10 damage in their activation. The stitched needs a small amount of luck (Tieing or winning a random card flip ) and 2 severs in hand. Tell me any other model that needs that little effort to be able to deal 10 damage. Sure, the stitched may hurt itself instead but that's not something the opponent has any control over, so from a counter play point of view you have to treat the model as able to deal 10 damage in its activation to something that is 6" away as long as it can see them. You also need to consider that the keyword has pushes so you can't just end your activation 7" away and be safe from the second gamble.

I think in this thread I had exposed several times the advantages and disadvantages of the ability. I'm not denying it's powerful, I'm talking about the counterplay keeps it in check. Stitched is dangerous in close range, but there are a lot of models with higher damage potential and way higher range than them. Arachnid swarm, a sabertooth with cacheor the Pale Rider from the top of my mind; and I'm sure a lot more but I don't fell like brownsing cards right now.

51 minutes ago, Adran said:

You also seem to think a range 6 attack is poor. It is not. Sure its a shorter range than most guns, but it doesn't contain any of the disadvantages of it being a  action. It is a much longer range than any  and its of a similar threat range to most models charge and . (Again without the downsides of having to actually move the model and the risk of terrain, or ways to protect or prevent it happening, although without the upsides of letting you move and do it).

Go and look how many ways for a model to damage something 6" away from them that don't suffer all the downsides of . It is quite rare.

6'' is short for a damage dealer and will put them in situations where they have to move out of position or have to advance to attack once and expose themselves to be attacked several times; ranges are huge deal in this kind of games for a reason; I'd gladly take 1 hit if I can return the favor multiplied by 3.

51 minutes ago, Adran said:

In my mind the negative play aspect of the stitched is that there doesn't seem to be counter play to what it does. A single stitched activation with no support is capable of dealing 5-8 damage to one of my models with almost no counterplay.

You appear focused on trying to change the model but without actually changing the model.

Your Hans Example appears quite flawed as it assumes that Hans wins 2 duels when the stats are equal. That's a much lower chance than the stitched winning 2 gambles in a turn because of the ability of the stitched to cheat the cards.

The chance of a blessed of December killing a stitched in 1 activation is pretty low. Its not impossible, but you are likely to need to get multiple hits and doing moderate or better damage on negative damage flips at least once. (Holding a high  makes it a lot easier, but you need that to be higher than the highest card the stitched holds for your focus attack to let you do 7 damage)

That is what I assumed were the most NPE  part of the model.

My original focus in this thread were see how this model could get reworked into something simmilar but less NPE. I don't want to change it a lot because it's not all over the faction, nor seem to be overperforming, it's the main damage summon option for a dreamer and is also part of Puppet crew which I don't master so I don't want to mess with that. The idea were keep the model in the same spot (low range, sturdy high damage dealer with the ignore non damage reduction defenses perk) but reducing the part more NPE for other players.

My examples assumed good circunstances for the main models in the same way the other examples assumed the opposite; but with so many skewed examples showing how OP stitched, mines are showing the other face. The truth is around the middle point from those 2 kind of examples.

 

This thread is starting to derrail into savage theorycraft looking for any way to justify why this model is OP... I think I can't add anything more to the thread and I'm starting to get tired of it so I'm out... Have fun with it guys!

[Adran]

11 minutes ago, Ogid said:

 

For example, the Arachnid Swarm, can nimble+charge 11, 10 to b2b. In b2b it has an stat 7 attack with  to damage 2/3/5 track AND built-in Onslaught (so while stitched will deal an average of 4 damage, the swarm can deal a average of 16). There are 2 of these in most Archanist lists and I've heard much less complain than with stitched.

Sorry to call you back, (feel free to ignore) but I don't understand your Swarm dealing an average damage of 16. I've played the game quiet a long time, and have picked up quite a bit of card mathematics over the years (but I still keep learning new things about it as I carry on playing), but I can't follow how the "average" damage of the swarm is going to be 2 severe and 2 moderate. whilst the stitched is only 1 moderate. (The stitched, even if there is no other lucid dreaming going on, should win 1 with its own lucid dreams and fiendish gamble, and typically will win the second more often that it loses it so I would expect it to be doing an average of about 7 damage). Given roughly equal hand and flips I would expect the swarm to need to cheat at least twice to hit (and at least one of those would be it cheating first)., and so not have severe remaining in hand to cheat for damage (I typically assume an average hand is 2 of each).  on straight damage flips you are looking at probably 3 in the weak to moderate range (and likely have the hand still to cheat the weak to moderate, and 1 severe, but that's still only 14 damage and has probably cost you 3-4 good to decent cards to do so, so basically your whole ability to cheat for the turn. Its probably cost the opponent 1-2 good cards defending.

It may well be that your meta doesn't cheat on defensive duels, or such like, which may squew what you consider average compared to what I consider average. It may also be you are only referring to the case when a model is 6.1-10" away with no movement penalties close to it hench the lower than I expected Stitched result . I don't know on what scenario you are making your averages which is why I ask.  I'm certainly guilty of using rough averages to make points, but when others differ from mine I like to know why. I don't mind reading theory but I like to understand what they are basign it on.

The swarm certainly a model that should do more damage than a stitched each turn. But it doesn't feel as negative to face it because you can look at it and consider ways to reduce that damage. You can hurt it at range and drastically reduce its potential damage down. You can hire models with defensive abilities that will do something, be it hard to wound, manipulative, terrifying, Incorporeal and so forth. You can kill it, and its not easily coming back. You can cheat against the attack, potentially preventing onslaught. You can try and stun the model.  You can stand 1.1" behind a Ht 1 wall, and that really screws up a swarm. It can't charge over it. And even if it walks over it, it needs a larger space to stop on the far side of a wall than you have left for it.

[Regelridderen]

@Maniacal_cackle I don't think, your assessment of Master vulnerabilities are completely fair. Let's take Lucius for example, whom you assess as 'devastated' :

His Serene Countenance may be bypassed by GYL – if you can get to him. Then you mention the threat of severe, but if you Fiendish Gamble your damage, then you won't FG the flip, making it a crap shoot. Not to mention, that there is a high probability, that Lucius is Shielded – he might even have a lead-lined wig.

WARNING! Lots of insane babble follows, please disregard : 

Next Lucius has a decent defense vs. GYL, as his crew has abundant Obey. So feel free to aim GYL and FG vs the Stitched themselves, bring in those weak cards, that he is working hard to remove, and hit the stitched with some damage back. 

Other masters will have other options, but this was just one example, on how to counter stitched.

 

-

The problem with Stitched isn't as much Stitched. The problem is, that people playing vs The Dreamer aren't addressing the real threat in the Crew – the little boy with the bat. When you put pressure on him via Focused attacks to neuter his Serene Countenance, you're just looking at Df5 and H7, you either strip away his health, stones or his hand, and without either he's suddenly having a very hard time. Sure he can transfer attacks to Daydreams – but then you're killing a Daydream AND stripping his hand. If you're hitting Stitched, you're hitting a Df6 that is easy to replenish, and you're playing right into The Dreamers strength.

Hit Chompy, Coppelius, Serena, Teddy and Dreamer, basically anyone but his minions. Those are the resources, that batboy will miss. The rest is merely diversions.

[Math Mathonwy]

For the record, I've seen tons of complaints about Arachnid Swarms and about Pale Rider and both are always on the table when people talk about models that should be nerfed so I'm not sure that they are the best points of comparison. If we are aiming for that power level, Wyrd will need to buff, what, 400(?) profiles and I don't think that's very likely (or even result in a game I'd like to play, to be honest).

[Ludvig]

@Regelridderen

The damage flip is usually straight since there's no accuracy modifier and it doesn't say it can't be cheated so the stitched player has some control over it without fiendish gamble. 

I am now in love with the idea of gambling with obeys, though, will be trying that out! 😁

[Ludvig]

Just now, Ludvig said:

@Regelridderen

The damage flip is usually straight since there's no accuracy modifier and it doesn't say it can't be cheated so the stitched player has some control over it without fiendish gamble. 

I am now in love with the idea of gambling with obeys though. Will be trying that out! 😁

 

[Regelridderen]

30 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

@Regelridderen

The damage flip is usually straight since there's no accuracy modifier and it doesn't say it can't be cheated so the stitched player has some control over it without fiendish gamble. 

I am now in love with the idea of gambling with obeys, though, will be trying that out! 😁

It can be cheated? REALLY! I completely forgot (my focus is on 'dora ATM) – I take everything back. Stitched are completely broken!  

And there's something very appropriate about lawyers inciting gambling, so please do  ( it might even prove to be a viable neverborn Lucius strategy  )

[Kharnage]

44 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

Next Lucius has a decent defense vs. GYL, as his crew has abundant Obey. So feel free to aim GYL and FG vs the Stitched themselves, bring in those weak cards, that he is working hard to remove, and hit the stitched with some damage back. 

Yeah that'd be rad, but this doesn't quite work.
"Fiendish Gamble: Once per Activation. When this model would flip a card, it may instead choose a card its controller has removed from the game and place it into the Conflict. That card is no longer considered removed from the game."
So when you obey the Stitched, you can, as the controller, use ALL the cards you've removed from the game. Which, unless you've hired some OOK lucid dream models, is nothing. Also, Gamble your Life is enemy only, and the Stitched don't change allegiance during the obey, so you could only truly gamble against yourself. Top to bottom, the Stitched are pretty well insulated against offensive obey.

[Mycellanious]

3 hours ago, Ogid said:

 

And talking about irreductible damage there is the pale rider who can set up a double devastation able to kill dreamer with very little counterplay from 20''; But Players take that in count and prevent it to happen.

 

Ok, but if we are seriously discussing the power level of the Stiched in the same context of the Swarm and ARCHIE surely that is indicative of an issue? The Swarm (cost 8-10) and Archie (9) should be terrifying beaters, more so than the Stiched because they are MUCH more expensive, are NOT Rare 3, and cant be summoned by 3 models in the game. Furthermore, both Archie and the Swarm are strong contenders for nerfing, so saying that Stiched are in a good spot because they are around the power level of higher cost models who are looking at nerfs is strange. 

Not to mention you then compared the Stitched to the fricken PALE RIDER. The 11ss unique Horsemen model which Guide Players universally call OP, but noting else in their Faction is worthwhile so he's in every list. I should hope the Stiched are far from on par with a model nearly twice their cost. 

I was also wondering how often you play / play against Stiched because you know a lot about them.

 

[Ogid]

Np @Adran, I'm bored to talk about stitched but I guess I can adress that one. It's true 14 would be more in line; however cheating a moderate to double the damage of the attack is a good deal most of the time unless you really needed those cards; which would give a mean of around 17 damage; so around 14-18 damage depending on the flips and if you are willing to cheat. The scenario of that comparison is as you said is the model between 6.1'' and 10'' of its target and able to reach b2b, in that scenario stitched will need to walk plus GYL (which also support why I think ranges are such a huge deal for damage dealers).

Taking the average Df5 model, an stat 7 attack is quite accurate; it'll force the other player to cheat first most of the time. If the other player tries to cheat everything, he will be hurting his hand way more than you, which will leave him much more vulnerable than you for the turn unless he has godlike card draw. GYL won't stress the other player's hand that hard, maybe his SS cache if he overrely on it to defend or their healers.

The defensive tech will work versus it but the ammount of damage it can deal is huge, has a much higher threat and range; and is also an amazing scheme runner. As you said there is counterplay versus him with smart positioning (but it has still a free movement to position for the charge) or hitting it hard to damage it and make it lose the positive to damage; but it does a ton of things on top of a great offensive. And as DMH is also taking in count in this thread, the swarm is also a summon.

As you say models like this one are able to deal more damage than a stitched, at higher range and also have utility on top of that. However the damage feels more avoidable (even if in reality a model has the same or worse odds to come alive of that encounter) and better than GYL. Which is why I'm really puzzled with stitched and I was trying to get some input about him in other metas to see why he is much more complained about than these other models.

However the discusion is too polarized and there are a lot of opinions based in "a 6SS model shouldn't do that" or "if you put it in the perfect scenario, ignore all counterplay and weaknesses and asume all go his way this happens" and I'm having a really hard time adressing how good he really is and in which scenarios he might be too strong. So I give up, I don't want to discuss loopsided scenarios again and again. I'll figure out myself.

2 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

Ok, but if we are seriously discussing the power level of the Stiched in the same context of the Swarm and ARCHIE surely that is indicative of an issue? The Swarm (cost 8-10) and Archie (9) should be terrifying beaters, more so than the Stiched because they are MUCH more expensive, are NOT Rare 3, and cant be summoned by 3 models in the game. Furthermore, both Archie and the Swarm are strong contenders for nerfing, so saying that Stiched are in a good spot because they are around the power level of higher cost models who are looking at nerfs is strange. 

Not to mention you then compared the Stitched to the fricken PALE RIDER. The 11ss unique Horsemen model which Guide Players universally call OP, but noting else in their Faction is worthwhile so he's in every list. I should hope the Stiched are far from on par with a model nearly twice their cost. 

Every one of these models are better and more versatile than stitcheds and are picked everywhere in their respective factions; I'm comparing the discused model with the top dogs to put it in context. I've never said they perform or should perform at the same level that those powerhouses.

If those get nerfed and stitched suddenly become the new top dog dominating the meta and appearing in every NVB crew, then I'll be the first one asking for/suggesting nerfs.

[Adran]

Swarms have a 2/3/5 profile. It looks like you have a moderate 4 damage.  My expectations would be that the swarm needs to cheat 2 or 3 times to hit, once first, on the assumption both players have full hands and the defending player wants to minimize damage.  I certainly know I would cheat to prevent onslaught if I thought it might work. 

 

[Ceodoc]

"Leave me alone"!

[Ceodoc]

I've just read above the damage flip 'can' be cheated on GYL?

Is that right?

I was told by a couple of very senior players it was not cheatable as it has no accuracy modifier.

[Mycellanious]

5 minutes ago, Ceodoc said:

I've just read above the damage flip 'can' be cheated on GYL?

Is that right?

I was told by a couple of very senior players it was not cheatable as it has no accuracy modifier.

That's from second edition, where the ability specifically said it could not be cheated. The M3E core rules instead state that any flip is cheatable unless specifically stated. So since the damage flip has no accuracy modifier it becomes a straight flip which is by default cheatable

[Ceodoc]

Cheers Mycell

[Ogid]

26 minutes ago, Adran said:

Swarms have a 2/3/5 profile. It looks like you have a moderate 4 damage.  My expectations would be that the swarm needs to cheat 2 or 3 times to hit, once first, on the assumption both players have full hands and the defending player wants to minimize damage.  I certainly know I would cheat to prevent onslaught if I thought it might work

Yep, I took the wrong damage track writting from memory... then you are right, average of 14 damage. The onslaught one is the best duel to cheat; but the defender will need a much better hand to succeed at that; 13, 12 vs 10, 9 kind of better hand.

4 minutes ago, Ceodoc said:

I've just read above the damage flip 'can' be cheated on GYL?

Is that right?

I was told by a couple of very senior players it was not cheatable as it has no accuracy modifier.

There is no rule saying that...

In fact there are damage flips with no accuracy modifier that specify that cannot be cheated (Toni Ironsides Df trigger or Ricochet trigger for example)

[Maniacal_cackle]

5 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

It can be cheated? REALLY! I completely forgot (my focus is on 'dora ATM) – I take everything back. Stitched are completely broken!  

That's the main point. People are often assuming the ability works like an attack and fails as easily as an attack. But it ignores all the attack penalties, including minus to flips.

8 hours ago, Ogid said:

I'd love to see an stitched chasing Zipp XDD.

As above, they don't need to. They can cover nearly the entire table between them, and that is ignoring when they land near him and get to gamble him. And he can't blast off when they do it.

The problem isn't that they can guarantee a Zipp kill. The problem is they can threaten one so efficiently that the opponent has to expend so much effort avoiding getting smashed, and the Stitched have to expend so few resources to do the smashing.

I think someone mentioned using focus as an example, but that means two actions instead of one (and lucid dreams doesn't really count as an action the same way focus does. The setup required is very different). Additionally pre loaded focus can be stripped away much more easily.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Oh, and in the interest of falsifiability.. If anyone can find a non-master that can bypass as much defensive tech as Stitched, I'd at least reconsider my position. Especially if it was a low cost minion.

[LeperColony]

9 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh, and in the interest of falsifiability.. If anyone can find a non-master that can bypass as much defensive tech as Stitched, I'd at least reconsider my position. Especially if it was a low cost minion.

The Pale Rider can ignore about the same amount with Revel in Conflict's 5 trigger.  At almost twice the cost and not until turn 3 at the earliest...