Stitched Together. Gamble your Life rework suggestions.

[Ogid]

I’ve said other times that from a balance point of view Stitched Together seems OK (if someone wants a longer discusion about this point, I'm willing to open another thread to discuss it; but I'd rather keep this thread just for rework ideas and opinions about these). However it's also true it feels a bit NPE to face. The idea of this thread is thinking in ways to rework the model into a version with the same strengths to keep Nightmare, Puppets and NVB in the same spot but that feels better to face for the other player. I don't think he needs a rework, but as being NPE is a reason to be Errated (and he isn't topping the popularity charts right now); it'd be interesting to know how would you changed it and offer some ideas.

For me bad ways to modify it would be changing the focus of the miniature without touching Gamble your life (for example lowering the defense or the mobility). It’d mess a bit with his role and endurance without addressing how he feels when he deals damage. Increasing the cost would also be a poor solution imo, it would made them overcosted and worse to hire instead of summon (but they would be still necessary in a Dreamer Crew to summon extra damage or get high cards back), so it’d stress a bit more the hand to put them in the table but at the end they would feel the same.

The best way to change him (imo) would be shifting a bit of power away from the tactical action toward the mele action, but without making him more mobile or sturdy to keep his role of sturdish (for 6SS) close range damage dealer the same (he got 0 utility beyond that).

So my suggestions with that in mind:

 

First step buffing the  attack:

Tear apart to get a 2/3/5 damage track, Stat to 6 with or built-in depending on the change.

Option 1: Limit the number of times it may be used.

A double lucky successful use of Gamble your life may be heartbreaking and it’s probably one of the reasons he feels NPE. Changing Gamble your life to “Once per activation” would fix it. This change would mess with other crews like Lucius or Zoraida where they could obey an stitched 2-3 times in the same activation, but I don’t think that’s meta right now so it’s not probably that problematic, and the upgraded mele action should also be an OK trade for them. I'd pair this one with stat 6 and built-in.

Option 2: Adding a TN to the tactical action after the flip.

The ability would be like it is right now, but instead of a 3/4/5 damage flip, the model would have to pass a TN 15 X, being X the stitched choice between Df, Wp or Mv or suffer the damage (this is also thematic as the stitched is again twisting the odds being able to choose the worst stat for the enemy and the best for him). This version would make strictly worse the Move + Gamble your Life so in this case I'd go with stat 6 and OR maybe increasing the range of Gamble your life to 8’’ as this version would reduce the reliability of his damage (not sure if the extra range would be too good tho).

Option 3: Making it an attack.

Making Gamble your life an attack is another way to add counterplay. However it’s a bit tricky to get an attack similar to the tactical action version. My (I hope decent) attack version would try to keep most of the tactical action flavor (a one card flip that bypass most defensive tech relying in not being hit, incorporeal and that can’t be cheated) while giving counterplay and adding some changes to balance it.

• Gamble Your Life (Rg 6’’; Stat *; Rst Wp; TN -)
• Requisites italics: Both models ignore any modifier to the duel and can’t cheat the duel. This attack ignores Terrifying. Damage accuracy modifiers are ignored. * stat is equal to Wp of the target, any modifier to the stat is ignored. Enemy only.
• Effects: Target suffers 3/4/5 damage ignoring Incorporeal. If this model loses the duel, this model suffers 3/4/5 damage.
• Triggers: Defensive Reflexes. Bloody Fate.Siphon Essence.
• Notes: Damage flip can be cheated and is affected by other modifiers different from accuracy.

Extra change: An upgrade to the mele attack. As in this case there are more counterplay I'd also go with stat 6 and built-in but maybe also adding a  “Bowled Over” trigger to have a way to handle defenders.

Disadvantages: It will make usable Wp defensive triggers and abilities like Butterfly Jump, Vengeance, Unmade, Fade Away, Consumed by Wrath, Karmic Ties, Natural Musk... It also opens the possibility to protect targets with Take the hit, Protected and the like (which are usually undesirable targets of low value or sturdy models with armor, H2K…). Now the built-in  trigger only works if the stitched win the duel, not always. 

Advantages: A more useable mele attack when counterplay makes Gamble your Life unusable. Gamble your life it’s now an Wp attack so it may heal stitched or other models if used engaged and may unbury nightmares, Focused may be used (it’d only affect the damage flip, not the duel tho). The reliability of the damage remains more or less the same when there is no counterplay options around. Two extra trigger.

I wasn't sure if I should include the defensive triggers or not, but as some models really rely on them to survive; I've decided the include them. For this version it’d be interesting to check how it interacts with the Doppleganger or the Agent 46, she would get a fixed stat of 7 which may give her the edge in the duel versus most models (but she has no armor, feed on fear nor fiendish gamble to cheat the duel). Agent 46 would get an improved stat of 6 but Inhuman Psysiology won't be useful so he would be a worse doppleganger when using this particular attack.

 

More ideas or opinions about the above?

[Adran]

Some history

Stitched have had the Gamble your life action in some form in all 3 editions. In the previous 2 editions it was an attack action that used difference in total to determine damage flip for the winner of the duel. It was still an attack that generated a lot of complaints over its power level. (It used to be even harder then, going up to 7 damage for severe. And the Stitched had ways that they could not die from the first gamble so were free to try it again (and again and again because they were able to be reactivated by the gamble).

 

During the public beta testing lucid dreams went through several different iterations. early complaints about the intial random deck removal was that people didn't like that they might use their ability and make their deck worse. The counter argument was that on average it would make your deck better in all iterations didn't seem to matter, the chance that they would have to remove multiple 13s from their deck once every 72 years was enough that they didn't like the ability (Actual odds may differ, but I argued on the side of maths and probability, rather than the unlikely odds that bad things will happen to you because of what you did). lucid dreaming got more and more in peoples favour, but it didn't stop the complaints, so a way to return removed cards was added - A fiendish gamble.

 

I don't think Stitched need errata, but since we're talking about it..

My personal view is that Lucid dreams is good enough to not need the safety valve to be an ability that people would use. So I would just remove fiendish gamble from the card and be done with it. If you really think you need the safety valve, then make it return a  random card removed from the game, so it can save you if your deck really hates you and Lucid dreams has only removed high cards, or you can play to power up Gamble, but it costs you elsewhere.

 

 

 

 

[goth]

Take a Changeling to copy GYL with Just Like You

[solkan]

If you want to make everything simpler, and eliminate the need for Fiendish Gamble entirely, add the words "This model may" to the second sentence of Lucid Dream.  There, done, the needless random downside to the action is gone and there's no need for hyperbolic arguments about probability any more.

 

[Mycellanious]

IMO gamble your life should have the restriction "cannot be taken while engaged"

[Ogid]

Ty for filling the info @Adran; as a post beta M3E player, that's interesting. I'll check the older Stitched cards, however for what I've heard about M2E all seemed to be much more over the top back there (damage 7? haha). About the probability, I recall a user posting the average flip in a deck with Lucid Dreams and without them (after making a simulation) some time ago and there was a quite big difference; I'll try to find the post later and put a link.

I do like Fiendish Gamble, it's an interesting and integrated mechanic with Lucid Dreams and it makes Stitched quite different so I don't like the idea of removing it to be honest. Plus that would require some buffs to both GYL and the stitched in general to not being a huge nerf for the model (and the change @solkan suggest for LD to not nerfing also the Nightmare keyword). Without Fiedish Gamble, GYL is basicaly an ability with a terrible range that let you expend actions killing your own model on a model with a below average mele attack. But that's the idea of the post, talk about it. Which aditional changes would you make after removing Fiendish Gamble to keep both Stitched and Nightmare in the same spot?

Would you mind stating whith what you disagree @CzaszkaA? I writed a lot of things in my OP, I'm not sure if you think Stitched is balanced or OP; or if you think the changes would make him too weak/powerful. The idea is talking about it.

[Ogid]

7 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

IMO gamble your life should have the restriction "cannot be taken while engaged"

This would make him the "gunslinger" (in the sense of a model that primarily deals damage not engaged) with the fewer range of the game... but it could be a way to add counterplay tho. However taking in count the range and the fact they are summoned engaged; I'd pair it with a better version of his mele attack and with a GYL range increase to 8''.

[Adran]

26 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Ty for filling the info @Adran; as a post beta M3E player, that's interesting. I'll check the older Stitched cards, however for what I've heard about M2E all seemed to be much more over the top back there (damage 7? haha). About the probability, I recall a user posting the average flip in a deck with Lucid Dreams and without them (after making a simulation) some time ago and there was a quite big difference; I'll try to find the post later and put a link.

I do like Fiendish Gamble, it's an interesting and integrated mechanic with Lucid Dreams and it makes Stitched quite different so I don't like the idea of removing it to be honest. Plus that would require some buffs to both GYL and the stitched in general to not being a huge nerf for the model (and the change @solkan suggest for LD to not nerfing also the Nightmare keyword). Without Fiedish Gamble, GYL is basicaly an ability with a terrible range that let you expend actions killing your own model on a model with a below average mele attack. But that's the idea of the post, talk about it. Which aditional changes would you make after removing Fiendish Gamble to keep both Stitched and Nightmare in the same spot?

For a time Stitched had Gamble your life as it is now, and no Fiendish gamble.  That might be why I don't view it as integrated as you do. I also don't think that  it automatically means you need to alter stitched or the nightmare keyword, as I don't think this makes a huge change to the actual power level of a stitched, just to the perception. I think the deck altering power of lucid dreams is good enough to make Gamble not that much of a gamble over all, and its on a relatively easy summoned model so you don't mind their death all that much. It already has armour and ways to heal to counter losing a few flips to already be turning the "gamble" in your favour.

I remember the post with the average decks after so many iterations of Lucid dreams, and it is quite a difference (I believe that was based on you not using fiendish gamble, and certainly not on people deliberately removing big cards from the game for that gamble). I can't remember who made it.

 

EDIT

Solkan did it in this thread. It probably did use Fiendish Gamble to fish out high cards

 

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

Solkan did it in this thread. It probably did use Fiendish Gamble to fish out high cards

Ty! That was the post! But it seems the non fiendish gamble part wasn't fully posted so there is less info than I recall... If I get some spare time I could make it myself so we can see the real numbers (but I won't be able in a while so if anyone can It'd be appreciated).

1 hour ago, Adran said:

For a time Stitched had Gamble your life as it is now, and no Fiendish gamble.  That might be why I don't view it as integrated as you do. I also don't think that  it automatically means you need to alter stitched or the nightmare keyword, as I don't think this makes a huge change to the actual power level of a stitched, just to the perception. I think the deck altering power of lucid dreams is good enough to make Gamble not that much of a gamble over all, and its on a relatively easy summoned model so you don't mind their death all that much. It already has armour and ways to heal to counter losing a few flips to already be turning the "gamble" in your favour.

I opened this post with the assumption that Stitched is balanced as it is but that's annoying to play against (and you also seem to agree if you think there is no need for an errata); so any nerf should come with a buff (imo). It's important to note they aren't OOK picks outside of their respective keywords and the only reason they may appear in other lists is because Vasilisa may summon them and free models and spare Wds are always great.

However that's a bit hit for the model. Fiendish Gamble makes more than securing GYL. That ability is also a defensive/ofensive ability for the stitched as you may use it to both "cheat" a high card for a defense or an standard attack without taxing the hand. That ability basicaly gives an extra high card just for him; removing that is a huge hit for the model.

It also adds different ways to play him. A player may go LD heavy (giving up the good Enforcers/Henchmans), top decking GYL and only removing high cards from very bad LD for a very powerful late game; or he may use LD to get extra high cards just for the stitcheds, getting a strong early turns in exange for a weaker late turns (and this is the main way to use it in low minion lists or in Puppets/Summoned by Vasilisa in other crews).

Removing it also makes much more unreliable going for the late game LD minion heavy lists because the player has to fend off the first turns without good enforcers/henchmans and without the safety net to secure some good GYL if damage is needed (as stitched is the only minion with decent puch in the keyword); that will funnel the keyword to play only low minion lists (imo).

It'll also mess with his role, making him a questionable pick in any list that's not a LD heavy list. Stitcheds don't have movement abilities, scheme shenanigans or any other support ability and other models in Nightmare/Puppets are better tarpits or much more versatiles than them; so what's left is a very unreliable hitter with a short range ability able to damage himself and the Nightmare keyword without a minion able to put out some reliable damage.

That's why removing Fiendish Gamble is a big no-no for me. It'd streamline a very cool model and would make worse high minion lists in Nightmare. I'm in for making him a less NPE model, but not for changes that reduce the viable playstiles or that weaken non-broken cool mechanics and models.

[Fixxer]

 I only respectfully disagree because I feel like the only people that feel the NPE from Stitched are newer players or sore losers. Stitched arent hired OOK from what I understand and I dont tend to see 3 hired to start a game every time.. This is proof that they're not OP nor do they need a change. 

 

IME, they were very good initially in my meta but over time veteran players figured it out and mitigated their effectiveness on the table by doing a few things... 

1. Kill them with Henchman beaters that can take them out in a single activation. (this happens a lot) - If they're pulling 13s for Df they cant use them for GYL. Plus the information is available to you, how many and what cards they've pulled...  (this is just like Shenlong/monks with Chi- gotta figure it out)

2. Stay outside of 11" if you can. Shoot them. That way you'll only get hit with a single GYL unless they want to spend a daydream or two or get Dreamers Bad Dreams off in addition to move them more. (Nightmares have little access to Fast). This is a resource drain and forces the stitched to telegraph who they're targeting (giving an opponent time to react) or take on a different role, which they dont have. They are killers, and thats it. 

3. Use damage reduction to mitigate GYL. This tactical doesnt bypass any damage reduction whatsoever it only gets by Df/Wp triggers. Use your armored guys, use SS, use models that can reduce that 3/4/5 to a 2/3/4 and its all of a sudden not so bad. 

4. Put pressure on Dreamer and Daydreams and dont assume that the Nightmare crew has useful cards in their hand. They dont have card draw and tend to be relying on the top of their deck to win duels which is the only way they do damage. The use of protected is nice and all, but its still a card gone and a possible dead model. I am consistently strapped for a control hand when playing Dreamer and find that aggressive players always do better vs him. This is because by being aggressive early you can take down those LD models which will mitigate the Fiendish Gamble later in the game or even discourage summoning Stitched. 

 

The answers are presently available and just take thought and execution to pull off, like most things in this game. 

 

 

 

[Ogid]

Ty for clarifying it @Fixxer. I agree with your points. The model could be in the strong side, but it's not OP and has counterplay; being a huge point making your list with them in mind to not including models too vulnerable to them or to include ways to minimice their impact. However it's still frustrating for newbies and players not used to face them, so I could live with a less perceived NPE version as long as the balance of the model and the keyword are more or less the same (which is the point of this thread).

Another way to mitigate it: Healing and self-sustain mechanics; as you said the range 6'' make it easy to outrange and the fiendish gamble make only safe a GYL per turn so they may have reliable damage removing a high card but they will have a hard time ramping it up. So crews with good healers or abilities like Juggernaut may also mitigate it quite well.

And being agressive and killing the daydreams is a huge point. Those extra LDs and pushs are big enablers of stitcheds.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Crooligans have an ability that stops opponents from cheating, and no one complains about that. You could copy the crooligan damage track 1/3/4 and it'd be pretty nerfed. But I don't think it is needed.

On balance, I think it is a strength of Malifaux that so many things feel overpowered but aren't actually overpowered. It forces players to skill up to figure out how to beat them.

I don't think Malifaux should be watered down to be too new player friendly, as the depth of the game is what makes it so appealing. 

[zavros]

I like the idea of making it a difficult test on one of their stats.

I feel like taking away fiendish gamble takes out a lot of the fun of the model, despite it fixing the problem cleanly.

If we want to make minimal changes to the ability, the damage is the problem (outside of ignoring all the attack rules). If you make the dmg 2/3/4 and can't be cheated then its a lot more reasonable. It's still a really good "attack" that you want to use since it still has the auto  attached and gets by a lot of defensive abilities. 

@Maniacal_cackle with the crooligan attack it at least takes resources and effort to set up so you can cheat the attack/dmg flip in your favor. All of the defensive abilities work against it as its an attack which is definitely a lot more fair. Your opponent's defensive stats actually matter so there's no real problems with Sharp Debris.

[Kharnage]

51 minutes ago, zavros said:

If you make the dmg 2/3/4 and can't be cheated then its a lot more reasonable.

I'd be super cool with this. It's just getting greatsword hits (straight flips and all, HtW and stone use notwithstanding) at a 6 inch range is a lot for a 6 stone model. If you wanna gimmick your way into a 2/3/4, that's waaay more manageable. Dreamers keep their ignores-most-defensive-tech no-actual-duel-required tactical action, and their un-dreaming of cards, and the rest of us don't get two pieced by 6 stone models. Hell, it's even a benefit for the Stitched; he's only taking 1/2/3 after armor if he fails the compare flip. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Another option would be to simply make a single flip (no damage flip), something like: flip a card from the top of your deck. If it is a weak card, Stitched takes 5 damage. If it is a moderate card the enemy takes 2, and on a severe they take 3.

I'd like the flavour of the downside being absolute disaster (maximum damage for the stitched), while the upside (damage and putting a strong card back into your deck) is worthwhile but not potentially one-shotting other 5-6 cost models. It'd also work better with lucid dreaming as an overall synergy, but reducing the really powerful 5 damage non-attack hits.

It'd also be interesting if it was something like every model with 6" flips a card. The lowest card takes X or X/Y/Z damage. Then you could counterplay it more easily by swarming models in and distributing the odds of getting hit (and it could hit Dreamer's other models, who can't cheat from outside the game!)

That said, those are all things that I feel are better done in beta. Once it is live (and people are purchasing based on the models working a certain way), I'm pretty averse to errataing models unless they are breaking something.

[Mycellanious]

26 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

I'd be super cool with this. It's just getting greatsword hits (straight flips and all, HtW and stone use notwithstanding) at a 6 inch range is a lot for a 6 stone model. If you wanna gimmick your way into a 2/3/4, that's waaay more manageable. Dreamers keep their ignores-most-defensive-tech no-actual-duel-required tactical action, and their un-dreaming of cards, and the rest of us don't get two pieced by 6 stone models. Hell, it's even a benefit for the Stitched; he's only taking 1/2/3 after armor if he fails the compare flip. 

To add on to this, I dont think it would be a terrible nerf to the keyword because Nightmare already has 2 min 3 models in Keyword, Chompy and Teddy, (With Dreamer himself and the Carver situationally min 3) and they are also a Keyword with significantly strong ranged threat. 

[Ogid]

5 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

On balance, I think it is a strength of Malifaux that so many things feel overpowered but aren't actually overpowered. It forces players to skill up to figure out how to beat them.

While I agree, unfortunately not everything is measured with the same yardstick. If something feels OP or is complained a lot, it has higher chances to be nerfed. Check this post. Stitched isn't OP but it require some adjustments to play versus him and has a terrible reputation, so guess how that ends.

4 hours ago, zavros said:

If we want to make minimal changes to the ability, the damage is the problem (outside of ignoring all the attack rules). If you make the dmg 2/3/4 and can't be cheated then its a lot more reasonable. It's still a really good "attack" that you want to use since it still has the auto  attached and gets by a lot of defensive abilities. 

I kind of like part of that idea, the problem with adjusting the damage track is that leaves dreamer without good option to summon when damage is needed. Imagine proposing reducing the damage track of a Jorogumo or the Goryo in 1; sadly is the same. The damage summon of Dreamer is the 6 SS one, not the 8 or 9 SS. I don't like the can't cheat it part tho, cheating a severe for 4 reductible damage isn't that bad and it's also a safety measure for stitched to be able to cheat a weak card.

However the 2/3/4 track has some advantages. It reduces the damage per action, so the safe GYL thanks to fiendish gamble will also deal less damage (which is one of the things that feels so NPE); it's about finding a way to compensate that damage loss.

 

I'll try to build a version based in that idea:

Gamble your Life:

• Damage track reduced to 2/3/4.

Sharp Claws.

• Stat upgraded to attack 5  . The is there to make his mele attack good also versus the same target than GYL without needing Focused. 
• New trigger: "Raise the Bet": After resolving, this model takes the "Gamble your Life" action.
  • Note the "After resolving", the trigger, the attack doesn't need to succeed.

How it'd change in different situations:

• Move + GYL will deal 1 less damage. (nerf)
• Safe GYL will also deal 1 less damage. (nerf)
• 2 successful gambles Gambles will deal a mean of 6 damage instead of 8. (nerf)
• Engaging a model with them will prevent extra damage to a non engaged target (extra counterplay)
• In mele asuming weak damage in 1 attack plus 2 gambles, it'd deal 8 damage (same, but it need to hit one attacks with an stat 5)
• In mele asuming weak damage in 2 attacks plus 2 gambles, it'd deal 10 damage (buff, but it need to hit both attacks with an stat 5)
• (LD heavy deck) 2 successful gambles Gambles will deal a mean of 8 damage instead of 10. (nerf)
• (LD heavy deck) In mele asuming Moderate damage in 1 attack plus 2 gambles with Severe it'd deal 11 damage (buff, but it needs to hit one attacks with an stat 5)
• (LD heavy deck) In mele asuming Moderate damage in 2 attack plus 2 gambles with Severe it'd deal 14 damage instead of 10 (buff, but it need to hit both attacks with an stat 5)

This version could work well, but it'd require some testing tho.

In this case the safe GYL and the long distance GYL are nerfed, and the more expensive models are also a bit more safer because they will have higher chances to avoid a stat 5 attack. However Stitched can still ramp up the damage getting close with a mix between standard attacks and GYL, and that damage may become higher in a LD heavy strategy. This also make some defensive tech like Butterfly jump, Terrifying or Take the hit able to reduce part of the damage and defensive triggers also interacting with the maximum damage output.

[Kharnage]

What if the 2/3/4 track had a trigger for swift action? You have to pass another simple duel, you by definition actually have to gamble something, and you had to get the suit in the first place. Armor hinders their damage more, but could still get quite a bit of raw damage with luck. 

[solkan]

 

10 hours ago, Adran said:

Solkan did it in this thread. It probably did use Fiendish Gamble to fish out high cards

 

For the record, I ran the simulation both ways:

- 8, 16, 24 and 42 Lucid Dreamings with periodic card rescue (rescuing a certain number of above average cards each turn)

- Just Lucid Dreaming, without card rescue

but all I was doing in the sim was recording the best case, worst case, and running average of the sims, because that was easy to write.

It was a pretty quickly hacked together two pages of code making various assumptions about when you'd want to take the card rescue action and just calculating the deck average.  I should probably go back and rewrite the code so that it also calculates the number of Weak, Moderate, and Severe cards in the deck, and get some more detailed results, but every time I think about looking up how to do running terms for a standard deviation, I get distracted.  🤷‍♀️

 

[ShinChan]

KmI think that that damage track is too good for a summonable 6ss model that is not easy to kill. 

Sory to disagree, but 6ss with 6Wd, Df 6 and Armor +1 and two different ways of healing is too good (plus all the healing in keyword). A 9ss beater that would need easily 3 attacks to take him down, and let's keep in mind that the Dreamer will always have (statistically) a better topdeck than the enemy. 

First if all, the sentence saying that Dreamer need summonable damage is completely wrong. He has access in keyword or versatile to all of these minimum 3 damage beaters:

• Carver
• Lord Chompybits
• Teddy
• Hooded Rider

Plus some nice 2/4/6 damage tracks in models that bring a lot of utility.

Do you want to leave the damage at it is? Increase the TN to 12 and remove the printed trigger. At least it won't be as reliable at the beginning of the game (after some lucid dreams it will become as good anyways) or it will put some pressure in the hand. 

Otherwise, just drop the damage to 2/3/4, and maybe, maybe, add another trigger (even if it's critical strike, I can live with that).

[Maniacal_cackle]

An important thing to keep in mind though is that it isn't just a 6ss model doing the gamble attack. You have to support it with loads of lucid dream spam. It'd be like saying that rabble risers are too strong at 6ss since they can take 10 attacks a turn, but that kind of ignores how much support they need to do that.

I don't think it is very common for people to hire Stitched out of keyword, or even hire dreamer to summon stitched. It is the very definition of a synergy-based model, so it should be strong with its own keyword.

I don't think the power level argument holds up that well (are stitched dominating anything atm?), but they are an unpleasant play experience for new players.

[0urs]

Make Fiendish Gamble once per turn.

But i dont think they actually need a nerf.

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

An important thing to keep in mind though is that it isn't just a 6ss model doing the gamble attack. You have to support it with loads of lucid dream spam. It'd be like saying that rabble risers are too strong at 6ss since they can take 10 attacks a turn, but that kind of ignores how much support they need to do that.

I don't think it is very common for people to hire Stitched out of keyword, or even hire dreamer to summon stitched. It is the very definition of a synergy-based model, so it should be strong with its own keyword.

I don't think the power level argument holds up that well (are stitched dominating anything atm?), but they are an unpleasant play experience for new players.

I don't agree with that comparison because the stitched get that support anyways as thats part of what the crew wants to be doing. Like Mei Feng and scrap markers.

[ShinChan]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

An important thing to keep in mind though is that it isn't just a 6ss model doing the gamble attack. You have to support it with loads of lucid dream spam. It'd be like saying that rabble risers are too strong at 6ss since they can take 10 attacks a turn, but that kind of ignores how much support they need to do that.

I don't think it is very common for people to hire Stitched out of keyword, or even hire dreamer to summon stitched. It is the very definition of a synergy-based model, so it should be strong with its own keyword.

I don't think the power level argument holds up that well (are stitched dominating anything atm?), but they are an unpleasant play experience for new players.

That comparison doesn't make any sense, starting with the reason that @santaclaws01 said. You're using Molly to reactivate, and you're assuming that you're hitting 5 times with the specific suit, that is not even printed, and you also have to discard 2 cards to do so. Also, Rabble Risers are not that easy to summon and don't get around of any of the defensive tech that the Stitched could. Also, in terms of survivality, they're a bit inferior.

You're going to "clean" Dreamer's deck, since it's the key ability of the crew, and it will benefit every single model of the crew, not only the Stitched Together. In addition to have better flips, you can use GYL in a super reliable way thanks to Fiendish Gamble.

I'm not saying that they need huge nerf or that they're so OP that they're winning tournaments by themselves, we didn't even have 6 months of M3E, but for sure they're on the top of the minions across all factions, and some of the things that are said in this thread are just plain ridiculous (no offence), but saying that they're squishy or easy to kill, check the card again please... And Dreamer and Vasilisa can bring them back easily (10+ or a simple 10+ and 1ss).

They're not hired OOK because they're not as reliable if there aren't any other models with lucid dream in order to take full advantage of the Fiendish Game.

[CzaszkaA]

17 hours ago, Ogid said:

Would you mind stating whith what you disagree @CzaszkaA? I writed a lot of things in my OP, I'm not sure if you think Stitched is balanced or OP; or if you think the changes would make him too weak/powerful. The idea is talking about it.

I didn't notice Stitched as OP, dreamer crew has far more oppressive models (okay maybe not for 6 stones), but given relatively short range (six inches) opponents care more about keeping distance/ getting rid of stitched, what is drawing attention away from rest of the crew is doing. Fiendish gamble is once per activation so we're potentially talking about 4-5 high cards a game. Cards that you first have to remove first for some time, but honestly I don't see stitched attacking anyone turn 1, so effectively 3-4 cards. I usually take one stitched with dreamer crew and summon another rather when first one is killed than running two simultaneously (unless something went terribly wrong and I have bunch of severes out of deck).