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Cedar

Our worst models

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I've seen similar threads on Guild and Gremlins forums, so I thought it'd be good idea to talk about our worst models. I've played a lot of games mostly as Outcasts and, basing on my own experience, the worst models are:

(Dis)honorable Mention: Ama no Zako

She is not bad overall - she has good threat range, offers utility, has good damage track. So why did I mention her? Simply because of her low ML stat - for 9 Stones ML 6 is standard beater option, and having so average attack value makes her resource hungry - she requires suits to make her abilities work and requires high cards to hit enemies with average defense values. Increasing her ML by point would make her solid pick, both in Outcasts and Ten Thunders.

5. Winged Plague

At fifth place, I put our mutated pigeons - sure, they are as annoying as their real counterpart, but Void Wretches, Banditos and Desperate Mercenaries are better options for running schemes - Wretches can slow enemies, have potential heal, Banditos have nice Run&Gun action, so they offer fire support for the crew while Desperate Mercenaries are very cheap models. So Why would you play Plagues instead one of previous options? 

4. Lady Ligeia 

Jack Daw totem has serious problem - she is very fragile for her role. She wants to be close to enemy lines, but having only 3 wounds doesn't help her to do this job properly, even when we consider her no-cheat aura, incorporeal and DF 6. 

3. Karina

She has few good actions, but she is resource hungry. Her summon is so unreliable (especially possibility to summon Death Marshalls) and I can't see anything what would justify her high (for a totem) cost.

2. Convict Gunslingers

I really love these models - at least sculpts. Rule wise - they are just weaker version of Sue. Even return Fire doesn't help them much - they are too slow, have short (for a pistol wielding dude) range, aren't that tough and require extreme luck to do serious damage. But one day, I'll live the dream to make 6 attacks from rapid firing Gunslinger against target cursed with Firing Squad Injustice...

1. Freikorpsmann

These guys are definitely our worst models. With release of Engineer (who is only 1 stone more expensive) there is no point of taking them even in fluff Freikorps crews. While Winged Plagues may have some potential value in some crews that I overlooked, these guys does't offer much even in scheme running.

What are your top picks of our worst models? 

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Can't speak about Ligeia and Karina, since them belongs to crews I don't have much interest to, and really don't know what they do. 

 

I really like the winged plage, since them looks to me the best pure scheme runner in our faction. I haven't played them because are too ugly to be paired with the freikorps xD. But gimme a 4ss fliying mov6 freikorp and I would use at least 1 in every game. 

 

Not sure if agree with the Gunslingers, since them shoot better than Sue for 1ss less. They are less Swiss army knife than sue, and less tough, but they hit harder I think. Totally agree with what-the-hell-is-this-trigger-in-this-crappy-def. 

 

Totally agree with the Freikorpsmann being our worst model. Too bad in everything for their cost. But don't forget that with the new Engineer you have more (not less) reasons to take the Freikorpsmann. Armor +2 and damage spreads of Ml 2/4/5 and Sh 2/3/6 (3/5/6 and 3/4/7 if discarding a ram, not counting flipping/cheating more rams) are interesting. Probably too resources for a 5ss minion, but is a possibility you have in the sleeve. 

 

Now I realize y finished advocating for the Freikorpsmann xD. Don't get me wrong. I really hate that guys. I've played a ton of games with them (and the specialist) and they have falied me every time. 

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I've used Ama no Zako a lot and found her really good. She's super mobile and difficult enough to take down if you pick her battles. Having Ml 5 is a drawback, but her damage is good enough that she still threatens a lot of things. I'll agree that you can't always get the most of her full card without eating up your hand and stones, but I think of her (0) actions as mostly gravy.

If you give her Scout the Field and/or Oathkeeper she can get get up field and run schemes super early or run around eating scheme-runners and then bog down your enemy later on. If you just want something for damage or area control there are much better options, but I think Ama is totally usable. 

The Freikorpsmann on the other hand I've never wanted to play or seen played. Which I think says enough about them. 

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47 minutes ago, Zebo said:

Totally agree with the Freikorpsmann being our worst model. Too bad in everything for their cost. But don't forget that with the new Engineer you have more (not less) reasons to take the Freikorpsmann. Armor +2 and damage spreads of Ml 2/4/5 and Sh 2/3/6 (3/5/6 and 3/4/7 if discarding a ram, not counting flipping/cheating more rams) are interesting. Probably too resources for a 5ss minion, but is a possibility you have in the sleeve. 

But other than a heavily Severe table, wouldn't it just be better to field two Engineers first? So unless you're going for 3 schemey dudes, there's still no point? Devoting possibly two cards (even if drawing one from Looted) and having a 6SS babysitter to make a 5SS model marginally better doesn't seem like a great use of resources.

The Engineer can give herself the Armor, and the Crit for shooting, and I'd argue auto-trigger on Can Opener is better than the resources to boost Crit Strike on gumby.

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I don't mind Freikorpsmenn in a Schill crew.  With Armour, H2K-but-not, and a WP buff they can be quite annoying against some crews.  

But.....they don't do anything.  I think one thing we see as new waves have come out is that even low-cost models tend to do at least one thing reasonably well.  Freikorpsmenn don't.  They're kind of in line with what was wrong with pre-Wave 5 von Schill; they tried to turn them into an all-rounder, but failed.  

 

Winged Plagues have an advantage over Void Wretches in that they have higher defence while you have cards in your hand.  

 

Personally I still think that the Friekorps Specialist is one of our worst models.......except I have taken him a couple of times since he got dropped a SS.  He's okay in some situations, but I'm still not sure that he has a place compared to other 7SS models.  

 

Interesting how, at 4SS, Desperate Mercenaries would have been on the list.  Now at 3SS, I like them.  They at least have a purpose and a particular job they do reasonably well (see what I mean, Freikorpsmenn??).  

 

I know I'm going to be in the minority here, but I very rarely fit Johann in my list.  Mobility is just way too low.  Sure, condition removal, but that presumes 1) That there's a condition that's worth using a model's activation to get rid of and 2) Johann is actually close enough to the model with said condition.  Which I find makes his condition removal too situational to be useful.  So we're left with a melee-only model that's as slow as a wet week.  Everytime I think about Johann, I just find better places to spend the SS.  

 

Scion of the Void I struggle to do anything useful with as well.  

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Pride. He wants to be on a frontline, but he is too fragile and his main stuff too weak and easy to avoid.

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Agreed fully on Freokorpsmann especially since Desperate Mercs are 3ss now and Karina - make her hench with restriction of 1 sumkon a turn or ability to drop the card for the suit added to next duel.

Ama is ok - difficult to use but ok. Same as Ligeia although this one imo should cost stone less.

Gunslingers - come on... i played them (and against them) few times and they were good.

 

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In my opinion and speaking of the models I know (not Tara, Daw or Hamelin crews) 

 

Taelor keep being a meh option. I can't see when I'm gonna spend 9ss in what she makes instead in any other thing. 

 

Johan. I really feel that this guy no more worth it. 7ss for a slow beater that only shines out of faction. 7ss for hard to kill, finish the job and flurry doesn't look to me like a good deal. 

 

Specialist. I still have to play him (I've been out for a while) because the options of an alpha strike with the VS placement plus the Engineer buff, but I used him a lot pre errata and never done anything (false, he shot once and was very harmful, but only once). He is dangerous, but enough slow and short ranged to be easily neutralizable. It feeled an absolut waste of ss, and I doubt dropping 1ss is gonna change that (instead os waste 8ss you waste 7ss)

 

Freikorpsmann... Well, it was bad, and keep being the same bad than before but with new cheap troops to compare who. Bad fighting, bad shooting, bad scheming, bad holding... They have never killed an enemy scheme runner for me, have never survived to similar costed enemies, and have never helped me to score anything. I have won games with them in my crew (and with the specialist), but more thanks to the awesome Strongarm an the pair of Trappers. 

 

Von Schill. He keeps being an average Master ridiculously expensive. Now it have new autotake upgrades that make him more funny to play, but nothing has change with him. 

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2 hours ago, Zebo said:

 

Von Schill. He keeps being an average Master ridiculously expensive. Now it have new autotake upgrades that make him more funny to play, but nothing has change with him. 

Agree on Taelor, I'd only consider taking her against a summoning crew.  Or maybe a tyrant/construct heavy one.  Can't remember the last time I actually took her - she's just completely useless.

 

But Wave 5 upgrades don't change Schill?  Puh-lease!  

Aside from the fact that he's now a huge hitter and can potentially (albeit rather unlikely) hit 10 attacks in a single activation (and in doing so can pretty much get across the entire length of the board), most of them on at least 1 positive flip, I find that he's a lot more schemey than before.  He can hurl his own models places, but the amount of disruption he can do with tossing enemy models around, and there's not much they can do to stop it.  Can throw them back, to their own part of the board, can toss them behind buildings - can even chuck them up to his own crew to finish them off.  Launch himself into a crowd to get rid of everybody holding a turf marker, for instance.  Or toss them off to the side so he can keep wailing on them.  Can bounce off his own models to reposition himself - and given the positives to defence, he's a lot harder to take down now too.  And that's before you even consider what throwing out oathkeepers can do.  The Wave 5 upgrades change everything with Schill and give him huge utility in a range of schemes.  There's now not much that he's bad at, as opposed to being bad at almost everything.

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really on taelor? My opponents at tourneys have been gaining a new found respect for her (probably thought same as you guys). scramble and oathkeeper for 11 stones of decent melee threat range with ml7 and a 3/4/6 damage track with numerous triggers, hard to wound and hard to kill, high wp and immune to horror duels, whats not to like?

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1 hour ago, CapnBloodbeard said:

Agree on Taelor, I'd only consider taking her against a summoning crew.  Or maybe a tyrant/construct heavy one.  Can't remember the last time I actually took her - she's just completely useless.

 

But Wave 5 upgrades don't change Schill?  Puh-lease!  

Aside from the fact that he's now a huge hitter and can potentially (albeit rather unlikely) hit 10 attacks in a single activation (and in doing so can pretty much get across the entire length of the board), most of them on at least 1 positive flip, I find that he's a lot more schemey than before.  He can hurl his own models places, but the amount of disruption he can do with tossing enemy models around, and there's not much they can do to stop it.  Can throw them back, to their own part of the board, can toss them behind buildings - can even chuck them up to his own crew to finish them off.  Launch himself into a crowd to get rid of everybody holding a turf marker, for instance.  Or toss them off to the side so he can keep wailing on them.  Can bounce off his own models to reposition himself - and given the positives to defence, he's a lot harder to take down now too.  And that's before you even consider what throwing out oathkeepers can do.  The Wave 5 upgrades change everything with Schill and give him huge utility in a range of schemes.  There's now not much that he's bad at, as opposed to being bad at almost everything.

So you think that Von Schill is fine with cache 1? And paying 2 extra ss for the upgrades? 

 

I understand that the new upgrades make VS competitive, my point is that you are forced to use them. If I don't want to use that upgrades or any upgrade at all (for whatever reason), he is the same mediocre master with cache 1. I would like a better cache 1 master even if that makes the new upgrades go up to 2ss or something like that (also think there's some VS upgrades that should be fixed to make you think about what to use). 

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I have 3 separate times soloed Yasanori with a Convict Gunslinger with Return Fire.  They are my constant choices when taking Viktoria builds.  They never let me down. 

Von Schill, yes you have to use his new upgrades to make him useful, so what?  The same can be said for a couple of the wave 1 or 2 masters.  it doesn't mattet.   For turns 2-4, I have more than half the table to freely move, shoot, throw, stab, repeat.  It's a freedom that few other models see, never mind masters.  It's a disruption piece, or at least how I play him: figure out what you're gonna do, VS goes and messes up the plans.  It's takes looking at the  pool of schemes and the opponent's crew and seeing what they're optimized for, then counter the tactic. 

I play Hamlin and I can't find a fit for Winged Plagues that Rats are more useful and I can't find a spot outside of Hamlin that Winged Plagues work. 

Pride is wholly useless outside C7, although I have found great synergy with Greed and Montressor.... so go trade.

Taelor I'm torn on.  She's good, but not good enough to use all the time, but not bad enough to actually be bad.

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54 minutes ago, Zebo said:

So you think that Von Schill is fine with cache 1? And paying 2 extra ss for the upgrades? 

 

I understand that the new upgrades make VS competitive, my point is that you are forced to use them. If I don't want to use that upgrades or any upgrade at all (for whatever reason), he is the same mediocre master with cache 1. I would like a better cache 1 master even if that makes the new upgrades go up to 2ss or something like that (also think there's some VS upgrades that should be fixed to make you think about what to use). 

So? Plenty of masters need upgrades to be any good. Why single out VS in that? Viks lose a huge amount of potency without upgrades, for instance. You'd never dream of taking them without upgrades. It's a silly argument. Malifaux is designed so some masters need their upgrades. As for 1ss,sure I think he should have maybe 3,but he doesn't desperately need ss. The 2 new upgrades aren't necessarily auto takes. Tough decisions need to be made with some of the old ones. 

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One Winged Plague is fine in Hamelin to fly first turn 24 inches with reactivate to enemy deploy for Symbols, Surround or Covert Breakthrough. Aside from that I can hardly find them any place

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1 hour ago, CapnBloodbeard said:

So? Plenty of masters need upgrades to be any good. Why single out VS in that? Viks lose a huge amount of potency without upgrades, for instance. You'd never dream of taking them without upgrades. It's a silly argument. Malifaux is designed so some masters need their upgrades. As for 1ss,sure I think he should have maybe 3,but he doesn't desperately need ss. The 2 new upgrades aren't necessarily auto takes. Tough decisions need to be made with some of the old ones. 

Yes, many (I'd say all) Masters need upgrades, but usually the can choose in between many ones. 

But the old ones from VS... Hard & Relentless, Paid in Blood and Spoils of war are really bad or too expensive (I've used a lot of Paid in Blood). The only upgrades usually used from VS are Engage at Will and The Shirt Comes Off. 

 

In the other hand, the all the Viks upgrades seem usefull, and allows new options for them. 

 

Sorry if it seems that I cannot let people say VS is fine. But I've been playing VS for a long time, and know many players that started with the Freikorps and moved to another crews less weaks for never return. I've won and I've lost with him, but really never felt VS was worth the low cache he has. 

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Why haven't anyone mentioned Hans?

I've read a lot about how useless he is.

Haven't played him much myself, though, he kinda sits in an army box, painted and all...

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Hans was not exactly a bad sniper, but a too expensive one in a faction with too cheap snipers. When Hans costed 8ss and Trappers 6ss, there was not many reasons to take him over the other/s. Now that both costs 7ss the things change. I would probably never include 2 Trapper in any crew (while before it was very usual to me), probably I'll try with one Trapper and Hans (and with Hans alone). 

 

Other model subpar for me is the Student of Conflict. 4ss is too expensive, and 2 ap for giving 1 ap also. 

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16 hours ago, Zebo said:

Yes, many (I'd say all) Masters need upgrades, but usually the can choose in between many ones. 

But the old ones from VS... Hard & Relentless, Paid in Blood and Spoils of war are really bad or too expensive (I've used a lot of Paid in Blood). The only upgrades usually used from VS are Engage at Will and The Shirt Comes Off. 

 

In the other hand, the all the Viks upgrades seem usefull, and allows new options for them. 

 

Sorry if it seems that I cannot let people say VS is fine. But I've been playing VS for a long time, and know many players that started with the Freikorps and moved to another crews less weaks for never return. I've won and I've lost with him, but really never felt VS was worth the low cache he has. 

You're making no sense.  First your complaint was that VS is crap without upgrades.  But you don't hold other masters to that standard - in fact you say that the Viks upgrades are useful and allow new options (yet apparently new options on VS are just a fun gimmick).  So now you're okay with upgrades.  Make up your mind.  

 

As for the Ss - Schill really doesn't need more than 1 SS.  Unlike the viks where you want to run them with 7SS (yet they only have a cache of one...you're quiet about that too).  Levi also has cache 1.  2-3SS with Schill gives you a good amount of flexibility.  Might want some more if you want to use reposition a lot.

Now you're complaining about some of his old upgrades are ordinary...well, yeah, so?  So don't take them.  doesn't make any sense to consider upgrades you wouldn't take in judging a master's competency.  Judge the master by what you do take.  

Out of the upgrades you're criticising, Spoils of War is an 'all Friekorps' one.  some people like Paid in Blood but I've never taken it.  I still find I have a hard time choosing which 3 upgrades to take with him because there are a number of really good ones.  I find Schill now to be one of the most versatile masters - he can be a huge beatstick, a tarpit, a support master, or play the denial game.  And he can change between this roles during the game too.  

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15 hours ago, Dima_v said:

Why haven't anyone mentioned Hans?

I've read a lot about how useless he is.

Haven't played him much myself, though, he kinda sits in an army box, painted and all...

He's a very handy model in the right circumstances, but he really eats into your hand if he's doing much more than sniping.

Hans can almost single-handedly neuter the Som'er Warpig list or others lists that rely on a specific Minion model. He can remove important upgrades from non-Leaders. He can even shoot past markers and blocking effects. All of these are things that factor into planning for what your opponent is doing, which is never as predictable as simply planning for killing.

He's underestimated, particularly after the price drop. He really needs his personal upgrade, Fast or a source of out-of-activation AP to really shine.

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Some people like using him with that upgrade where you can ignore LOS for a Turn 1 sneaky shot on something, like a totem, with focus.  Although I'd think that's unlikely to work unless you have a really high card in your hand otherwise it'll just get defeated.

I've never tried it myself because I tend to use his 0AP

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Hans is good as he is now. For 7SS with an access to nice upgrades he is a good model. If you don't believe just compare him to Rami... 

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On 5/26/2018 at 9:46 PM, Cedar said:

4. Lady Ligeia 

Jack Daw totem has serious problem - she is very fragile for her role. She wants to be close to enemy lines, but having only 3 wounds doesn't help her to do this job properly, even when we consider her no-cheat aura, incorporeal and DF 6. 

I feel that Ligeia suffers from Nurse syndrom - she's a mix of average or below average stats and extremely powerful ability, which makes her really difficult to price adequately. I haven't even glued mine - so overpriced and fragile she seemed to me initially - until someone has actually used her against me. I had no non-:ToS-Range: Ca attack in my crew and getting rid of her suddenly became a huge problem. After that I have changed my mind about her. I would say that she's ok, but you shouldn't take her if there's not enough terrain to hide her or if you anticipate easy counters (like Carrion or Shadow Emissary).

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5 hours ago, CapnBloodbeard said:

You're making no sense.  First your complaint was that VS is crap without upgrades.  But you don't hold other masters to that standard - in fact you say that the Viks upgrades are useful and allow new options (yet apparently new options on VS are just a fun gimmick).  So now you're okay with upgrades.  Make up your mind.  

 

As for the Ss - Schill really doesn't need more than 1 SS.  Unlike the viks where you want to run them with 7SS (yet they only have a cache of one...you're quiet about that too).  Levi also has cache 1.  2-3SS with Schill gives you a good amount of flexibility.  Might want some more if you want to use reposition a lot.

Now you're complaining about some of his old upgrades are ordinary...well, yeah, so?  So don't take them.  doesn't make any sense to consider upgrades you wouldn't take in judging a master's competency.  Judge the master by what you do take.  

Out of the upgrades you're criticising, Spoils of War is an 'all Friekorps' one.  some people like Paid in Blood but I've never taken it.  I still find I have a hard time choosing which 3 upgrades to take with him because there are a number of really good ones.  I find Schill now to be one of the most versatile masters - he can be a huge beatstick, a tarpit, a support master, or play the denial game.  And he can change between this roles during the game too.  

Maybe I'm not explaining well myself. 

 

Not saying that don't want VS to be good with upgrades. The new upgrades are good. In fact, too good for only 1ss. VS became quite more competitive (and more important, fun) with the new upgrades. Without the new upgrades, VS keep being the same. 

 

The Viks are good. Not counting their upgrades are very good. And almost every upgrade you put on them is gonna make them better in some way. Not the same with VS. He is quite meh, and only shines if you use at least one of his new upgrades (that are obviously under costed). 

 

Maybe VS doesn't need ss for you, but I asure you that I burn every ss I have and always guess I'd put more (and almost always see VS to die). 

 

I want a master that is good by himself, and then you have diferent choices in upgrades to improve different things or give him new options. 

 

EDIT: Yes, not mentioning Viks & Leve being also cache 1, because I think it's fine (Viks are 2 very good models, while Leveticus is quite good and have 2 extra free models), also Hamelin is cache 1 and is considered the top master in the faction. Have anyone said that VS is as good as Viks/Leve/Hamelin? Because for his cost, he should be. 

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Vado un po 'fuori tema, questo è il mio sogno: mi piacerebbe vedere un diverso output di dmg su Leveticus, leggermente migliorato. (almeno su minimo e medio e riduzione del massimo in mi, e un po 'meglio su Ca) Anche se è ancora un buon maestro.

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I like the levi's damage output in Ml, but agree with increasing the Ca damage, maybe only up to 2/3/5, to follow the "high card high damage" he's been. Also would include to his Ca "ignore cover" and would change the "Channel" to its pre-errata version but with "once for activation". 

 

We cannot forget that Leveticus is not a "ranged dps", but an "all around dps". We have more "shooting" Masters that could be overshadowed if the Leve's shoot become too easy and powerfull. 

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