Zipp wins UK Masters gg2018

[wizuriel]

23 hours ago, Runeman said:

Lenny had to be changed. That particular interaction locked Ophelia into a certain playstyle where she never used her gun upgrades, and that does not appear to have been the original intention with Ophelia.

problem imo is before the Lenny nerf Ophelia was the undisputed single target ranged damage dealing master in Gremlins.

After the Lenny change she was the poor man's Somer master you play for fun

after the wave 5 upgrades she has a very small niche for herself, but is still 75-80% over shadowed by Somer imo.

 

Compared to Somer I would argue she is tankier than him and her upgrade to drop scrap / scheme markers makes her crew faster and easier to scheme (if you bring Kin which imo are a bit under represented in the faction). Her problem is now is she is really limited by her upgrade slots as you need to take her new upgrades to give her that ninche leaving only 1 spot open for guns and general upgrades. I would also say she kind of has an identity issue now. Her base card screams ranged damage dealer, but her upgrades and her play style now are more of a support master. Compared to masters like Perdita that both have upgrades that change her plays style and others that support her pew pew game style. 

 

Somer imo will more reliably do damage, is less card dependent and supports a much broader section of Gremlins. He can support both a horde with his summoning or a more elite crew with encouragement. Bigger hat than you can decimate the right crew and with Somer and he can easily work around it (by giving our the suits you need before using it or redrawing cards if a Gremlin dies or just taking models with bayou 2 card while giving out  flips with encourgement)

[PolishSausage]

9 minutes ago, Runeman said:

Before book 5 came around, we had some discussions on this board regarding Ophelia and what might be done to improve her. I know some of us argued that giving her instinctual or something similar would open her up to be more distinct from Somer, as that would mean that she would be a sort of mobility master. And I can only assume the people at Wyrd listened, as they gave us not only instinctual, but even more mobility for her Kin if we wanted to use her upgrade guns. 

 

100% agree, if you have not Ophelia in a while I recommend it. She allows for a mean gun line army that is now very meta. The 2 zeroes make her a friendly control master with great shooting options. She is also one of our more dangerous masters due to dumb luck being on melee and shooting ( as opposed to Sommer).

The only negative is you go with 0 upgrades on her to fully benefit from instinctual, so no dc/do over/stilts which is somewhat poopy, even Jack Daw gets 2 free slots.

[daniello_s]

Dont even mention Tara 

[PolishSausage]

Well, she needed all the help she could get, both of her new upgrades are very useful if not mandatory.

 

I don't think any of our Gremlin masters is in such dire need of a "0" ss upgrade as she was.

[PirateCaptain]

I think a lot of the "gremlins are ignored" talk comes from a misinformed location.  In my opinion, Gremlins are very strong, but very difficult to play.  I think as a whole Gremlins are an intense glass cannon, and a lot of the staple models have ways to mediate the glass.  As a whole the faction is very high risk high reward, and that can be frustrating to play if you don't know exactly what you're doing.

Let's look at Franc and Burt for example, both of these models can put out absurd amounts of damage, and Gremlins has tons of methods for delivering them quickly, the problem I see with them was they were a bit too survivable, between stilts and dirty cheater they can be very difficult to put down.  i think increasing their points costs was actually a very appropriate way to handle this, even in faction.  I really think the faction is in a really good place, and I know i'm not the only one, as they are getting good results, and sometimes with models that were previously not used (I think the reduction on survivors was very beneficial, but needs more data).

[daniello_s]

Just give me back Stuffed Piggies for 2SS WHEN i also hire Taxidermist...

[PolishSausage]

38 minutes ago, PirateCaptain said:

Let's look at Franc and Burt for example, both of these models can put out absurd amounts of damage, and Gremlins has tons of methods for delivering them quickly, the problem I see with them was they were a bit too survivable, between stilts and dirty cheater they can be very difficult to put down.  i think increasing their points costs was actually a very appropriate 

Lets discuss Franc.

Was 7ss for 10 wounds (great!) but DF4, There are comparable henchmen in the 7ss -8ss department that might be 1 or 2 wd short but have armor/htw/df5-6 HTK or other survival ability.

If you take stilt the model is suddenly 8ss ( looking at old cost) and no longer benefit from group of abilities ( skeeter delivery being one of them)

Dirty cheater is great, but in comperison to now lead line coat its not so great. DC only works on your own activation so you need to survive with DF4 model to go again.

In order to unlock the Weak of 4 dmg you need to do 2pts of damage to yourself per hit. As good as weak of 4 sounds you are killing your own model as a standard.

This means you not only have to kill something equal to his cost, but much much higher than he is costed. As opposed to other models out there who will be left standing un-wounded after killing something dead you are killing your model in the process.

 

On the other hand you take Francisco for 8 ss give him +1(HTK & heal) +1(armor) and you have phenomenal hitter with attk value 7. access to both shooting and melee. 

And now you can deliver him just as well as our Francois thanks to guild investigator.

[Somnicide]

There's apparently a discussion with the winner here -https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-quf3p-87a76d I am listening at lunch (it is Arcane Reservoir)

 

@Psientologist

[vulky]

Guys a friend of mine (Gremlin player) asked if I could find the winning lists of the UK Masters. I found this thread but the links in the first page are expired, anyone mind uploading the images again? Thank you.

[edopersichetti]

On 2/8/2018 at 2:42 PM, Somnicide said:

There's apparently a discussion with the winner here -https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-quf3p-87a76d I am listening at lunch (it is Arcane Reservoir)

 

@Psientologist

And the winner is? I don't really have time to listen (but I think I know the answer)

[edopersichetti]

On 2/8/2018 at 1:13 PM, PolishSausage said:

Lets discuss Franc.

Was 7ss for 10 wounds (great!) but DF4, There are comparable henchmen in the 7ss -8ss department that might be 1 or 2 wd short but have armor/htw/df5-6 HTK or other survival ability.

If you take stilt the model is suddenly 8ss ( looking at old cost) and no longer benefit from group of abilities ( skeeter delivery being one of them)

Dirty cheater is great, but in comperison to now lead line coat its not so great. DC only works on your own activation so you need to survive with DF4 model to go again.

In order to unlock the Weak of 4 dmg you need to do 2pts of damage to yourself per hit. As good as weak of 4 sounds you are killing your own model as a standard.

This means you not only have to kill something equal to his cost, but much much higher than he is costed. As opposed to other models out there who will be left standing un-wounded after killing something dead you are killing your model in the process.

 

On the other hand you take Francisco for 8 ss give him +1(HTK & heal) +1(armor) and you have phenomenal hitter with attk value 7. access to both shooting and melee. 

And now you can deliver him just as well as our Francois thanks to guild investigator.

Perfect analysis - and perfect example of the reason why Gremlins player "complain" about other factions filling their gaps.

[Tors]

Sadly, comparing singular models cross faction never made much sense.

And i think 'gremlin players' is a bit wide as it implys a whole group of players while mostly it seems to be the same 3-4 people who use every opportunity in this Forum to complain.

[PolishSausage]

or it could be that gremlin players actively competing in tournaments across the country are a large minority.

Faction strength and unity of players actively posting on forum ( constructive criticism) is seen by designers.

Edited February 10, 2018 by Durza
Deleting a reference to closed testing

[trikk]

On 8.02.2018 at 7:13 PM, PolishSausage said:

Lets discuss Franc.

Was 7ss for 10 wounds (great!) but DF4, There are comparable henchmen in the 7ss -8ss department that might be 1 or 2 wd short but have armor/htw/df5-6 HTK or other survival ability.

If you take stilt the model is suddenly 8ss ( looking at old cost) and no longer benefit from group of abilities ( skeeter delivery being one of them)

Dirty cheater is great, but in comperison to now lead line coat its not so great. DC only works on your own activation so you need to survive with DF4 model to go again.

In order to unlock the Weak of 4 dmg you need to do 2pts of damage to yourself per hit. As good as weak of 4 sounds you are killing your own model as a standard.

This means you not only have to kill something equal to his cost, but much much higher than he is costed. As opposed to other models out there who will be left standing un-wounded after killing something dead you are killing your model in the process.

 

On the other hand you take Francisco for 8 ss give him +1(HTK & heal) +1(armor) and you have phenomenal hitter with attk value 7. access to both shooting and melee. 

And now you can deliver him just as well as our Francois thanks to guild investigator.

I think while I can agree with some posts, its kind of biased.

I`ll start by saying that in comparing LLC vs DC, LLC wins. But DC has 2 advantages. There`s a lot of models with Armor and DC. LLC and Armor don`t stack. Second of all - LLC is non-master. DC is a master upgrade. Now I know in the case of Francois it doesn`t change anything but if we`re comparing upgrades lets do it in a general way.

 

Second of all, I think both Francisco and Francois aren`t well designed models. But they have a totally different role. Francois IMHO is a trade piece with no support value. You pick an enemy model and unless your hand is crap evaporate him from the board and probably lose Francois afterwards. with possible 4 AP from Skeeter if you`re in charge range you can quite easily kill most henchmen and enforcers. 

Francisco is badly designed because some of the masters have pretty bad defense with no real defensive triggers which means for Sonnia and Justice he`s usually taken not really for his offensive prowess, but for El Mayor. I honestly think if there`s a bigger card rework, Sonnia should get Df5, Justice Df6 and El Mayor can be replaced with something other than a stat boost. Currently you don`t really want to go in because he`s quite expensive (9-10SS), doesn`t have the trade posibility unless in a great situation and you`re risking losing the master buff.

As for delivering him - Investigator allows a 3" push. Which means that you need to spam markers in order to get him into position. This is in no way the same as a Skeeter.

[PolishSausage]

3 minutes ago, trikk said:

As for delivering him - Investigator allows a 3" push. Which means that you need to spam markers in order to get him into position. This is in no way the same as a Skeeter.

as funny as it sounds I black joker-ed that one flip one 2 many times/ or did not get a tome only crows and rams.

[trikk]

22 minutes ago, PolishSausage said:

as funny as it sounds I black joker-ed that one flip one 2 many times/ or did not get a tome only crows and rams.

Of course but this kind of can happen to everything

[Ludvig]

2 hours ago, PolishSausage said:

[REDACTED]

Faction strength and unity of players actively posting on forum ( constructive criticism) is seen by designers.

The first rule of errata club is "You don't talk about errata club". 

The second rule of errata club...

 

Not sure what you are referencing but I'm guessing it isn't public knowledge. I do agree from my participation in the open betas that vocal players with a large online prescence can definitely swing design. I think it has happened in all of the open playtests. It's so hard to scientifically test model costs and effectiveness that it all becomes very biased.

[Durza]

<Modhat> I've just edited a post, please do not talk about closed testing publicly. <Modhat>

[daniello_s]

El Mayor should really be 'untill the end of the turn only' and this way it wouldn't be so dirty. But I agree that both models were not really well designed from the start.

And I think Skeeter's Hop Aboard should have a restriction that taxied model cannot chain-activate. This combo is way too strong and make Gremlins look bad.

[Ludvig]

2 hours ago, daniello_s said:

El Mayor should really be 'untill the end of the turn only' and this way it wouldn't be so dirty. But I agree that both models were not really well designed from the start.

And I think Skeeter's Hop Aboard should have a restriction that taxied model cannot chain-activate. This combo is way too strong and make Gremlins look bad.

I'd go the other way. I think a lot of end of turn buffs get hard to use because that is so restrictive and it puts a huge emphasis on winning initiative. If Brewie could keep his bubble between activations I bet he wouldn't be seen as so weak. El mayor is limited by the super short range on it and the fact that you need to start your activation near the model you intend to buff so it takes a lot of forethough to get good use out of it. I can see how Francisco's upgrade wade in is a bit annoying though. The most straightforward way is often to kill him which is probably why a lot of players who are used to facing him just shrug and get on with killing him first thing in their games. I'm pretty sure Sonnia would also be completely unplayable without it. She would need some arc node type rule like Raspy if El Mayor just dropped from the game in an errata.

[daniello_s]

Well considering Sonnia (or Malifaux Child) can easily limit an access to get her on turn 2 with this pesky flame wall i don't think it would be much case. At least it would require more thinking where to place her instead of parking her whenever you want to and blasting sh**e out of the opponent on turn 2.

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, daniello_s said:

Well considering Sonnia (or Malifaux Child) can easily limit an access to get her on turn 2 with this pesky flame wall i don't think it would be much case. At least it would require more thinking where to place her instead of parking her whenever you want to and blasting sh**e out of the opponent on turn 2.

I had Sonnia with both a child and Francisco in two of my ITC matches last year. Dead first activario tuen two in one match and engaged from turn two and died turn three in the other. I put up double flame walls in both those games and we had a fair amount of impassable terrain. The one where she was dead turn three she was in my standard deployment on a 3" high vantage point qithout stairs up to it. Without the buff she wouldn't have lasted as long as she did against a single enemy model (Seamus/Cerberus).

[WWHSD]

2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

She would need some arc node type rule like Raspy if El Mayor just dropped from the game in an errata.

Doesn’t her ability to shoot burning things without needing LoS kind of serve the same purpose?

[trikk]

19 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Doesn’t her ability to shoot burning things without needing LoS kind of serve the same purpose?

It doesn`t extend the range and Sonnia doesn`t have a lot of ways to get Burning off unless she brings her crew which isn`t super effective.

[the tick]

And once Sonnia gets engaged she feels much less dangerous. At least that's from the perspective of being on the other side of the table from her.