July FAQ - Leveticus and Malifaux Rat Errata

[Mutter]

Yeah, I guess that's a bit of a perspective thing.

I'd liken (now at least) Levi to be a 'skirmisher', as Stryder called his Seamus after winning the Masters, not an all-out murder machine. He could do the skirmishing thing before, but why would you, when you could just kill whole enemy crews in two turns (see Icemyn's battle report)?

So he didn't get any new abilities, but the focus has shifted - I think this is what was meant. But I get your point ...

[Math Mathonwy]

17 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

I agree totally with you. Just laughing out of this statement that we should explore him far more than just a hard hitter. Like he had something more to offer than that on his card

I believe you have now made that point pretty thoroughly seeing as you have posted it five times into this thread already  

[daniello_s]

12 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I believe you have now made that point pretty thoroughly seeing as you have posted it five times into this thread already  

I can be pretty persistent (aka annoying) if I want some explanations on certain issues

PS. I'll drop it here as everybody knows what I meant by now.

[sharpobjects]

6 hours ago, katadder said:

I appreciate Wyrd explaining the whys behind this, however does this mean everytime the US "meta" whines about something enough a model gets screwed?  

Just like when the UK "meta" requested changes or "whined" using your terminology regarding Jacob Lynch's Woke Up With a Hand upgrade: Final Debt Action . I never saw a problem with it the way it was originally but enough players from the UK meta did and it was Cuddled. Did that change make Jacob weak? I dont think so, and I believe the majority agree.

[Tris]

Thank God (or Wyrd) that nobody has to think about how to play against the infamous and dreaded rat engine and Leveticus anymore....

 

I actually like how the "problem" with the rat engine was solved, as it`s very thematic but personally, I don`t agree with the need to cuddle Leveticus.

Thought that was brilliantly solved by the introduction of the 2016 Strats&Schemes, give him a big bumper without really showing it , but I´m not sold on the new errata.

 

Why should any of my opponent care for Leveticus more than for any other model in my crew?

He`s "unkillable" but can still be removed moderately easy if he stands in the way and still gives my opp. vp if killed, but isn`t that huge threat anymore, so him always coming back from the dead doesn`t seem that impactful anymore.

 

I think he`s not bad by any means, but just got very mediocre...

 

Kind regards

[Linus Mcmold]

3 hours ago, Jafar said:

I checked yesterday his upgrades, as summoner he is too weak. We can get only 1 scrap marker per turn (from Rusty), and with 9crows+ we can summon abomination.
It always something, but I think, we have better things to spend that card and AP.

Other summoners for 9card will get 5ss model but it may need different resource than scrap marker and our abomination is on full wounds.
But if the summoner will have 11card or better, he/she can get more expensive (ss cost) model, but with levi you still only get abomination......

I disagree that you can get only one scrap. With Alyce, a Large Arachnid and 2 extra abominations (who can damage themselves for extra cards before one of those gets killed by said arachnid and another one sacrifices for Desu Engine, along with the new ones which can also get you free cards) you can get a fairly cheap recycled Desolation Engine on turn one. If you want further scrap on next turns you can bring in the Mechanical Pony who summons little arachnids, but that's too much investment in my opinion and I'd rather get a teddy or an extra henchman bringing along some cheaper wacky constructs.
Large arachnid is also a good anchor for his Waifs in my opinion.

EDIT: I've read half through the pages when posting this, so sorry if the topic was resolved. I'm also late to chime in.

I also think this eratta is a great way to make more people play the game. Leveticuses card is a bit clearar this way and it helps to remove a notoriety from this master in some META-s. So yeah, great.
I've played Leveticus twice (first in the 1.5 edition and second in the 2nd edition) and he didn't fare well because of this notoriety. Nobody plays him in my meta and when I tried somehow both games I played turned into 4 player games where I had to play against 2 players at the same time. In the first game I got trampled from two sides and in the second, more recent game I had some luck against Ramos (which only helped neutral Colette to win the game), but I was in turn trampled by Rasputina and her followers of December from the other corner of the table. I guess Leve had notoriety before he was even played in my meta. Now I want to play him normally and I think I'll start using him after the summer (I have to paint and polish more gremlins first).
 

[Justin]

2 hours ago, daniello_s said:

I agree totally with you. Just laughing out of this statement that we should explore him far more than just a hard hitter. Like he had something more to offer than that on his card

Rather than cherry picking a single line, I think my intent was fairly well explained with the paragraph I wrote on Levi's role:

"Leveticus is still the wily old scavenger we all know and love. He still eternally dies and comes back. He still fields abominations and necromancies from multiple Factions, and he will still stalk the board removing your opponent's weaker pieces. His role on the battlefield will just change slightly. You may find that, after the errata, it is better to have Leveticus finish off already damaged models (which he is excellent at, due to the wide array of defensive abilities he still ignores) rather than having him deal the bulk of the damage. In fact, you may even find that activating him later in the Turn is more advantageous as he can pick off weakened targets. I feel that this is actually even more thematic to his role as a scavenger."

If I was not clear I apologize. And if you still disagree, that is very well your right.

[daniello_s]

@Justin

I 'cherry picked' your conclusion which slightly stands against what you have wrote earlier in your post (and which you have quoted above) which in short was: Levi still kills effectively and maybe now will focus more on finishing damaged models but players shouldn't treat him solely as a damage dealer but take an opportunity to explore the wide range of possibilities which Leveticus still offers. Unfortunately I can't see those other opportunities anywhere (well, I'm sure no one does). He was, is and will be damage solely damage-dealer unless his card is completely re-written.

But let's leave it here and enjoy Malifaux (and incoming Gencon ;))

 

[Adran]

Well he is potentially one of the fastest masters out there. Perhaps you could use the speed to drop markers in the right places rather than just to line up the perfect kills. You can make him give extra attacks to his crew. He still kills, but if you are wanting to 1 turn kill masters you need to equip him to do so. ( and you can). If you honestly think his only role is  killing, then you probably think the same about Perdita, justice, Ophelia, Jacob, mei feng viks, von schill Wong, sonnia and rasputina. 

[Icemyn]

2 minutes ago, Adran said:

 If you honestly think his only role is  killing, then you probably think the same about Perdita, justice, Ophelia, Jacob, mei feng viks, von schill Wong, sonnia and rasputina. 

I think the argument is that the only thing Leveticus does on his card is kill stuff, which is really hard to refute. If Leveticus isn't in position to kill something, like on turn one, he has wasted ap. Many of those masters you list do have other things to do with their ap. Perdita has obey, Lady J can remove conditions, Ophelia attaches upgrades, etc.

I'm not saying that he can't do scheme running pretty well or anything like that. Just pointing out that you seem to misrepresenting @daniello_s's point, which they have made repeatedly .

[tomjoad]

I feel like if you see a Master that can teleport almost anywhere on the board every turn and the only thing you can think to do with him is "kill the biggest thing," that's on you and your creativity. Killing stuff is pretty awesome and valuable, but it's silly to say that free placement effects with near unlimited range don't have a wide variety of potential applications.

[daniello_s]

12 minutes ago, Icemyn said:

I think the argument is that the only thing Leveticus does on his card is kill stuff, which is really hard to refute. If Leveticus isn't in position to kill something, like on turn one, he has wasted ap. Many of those masters you list do have other things to do with their ap. Perdita has obey, Lady J can remove conditions, Ophelia attaches upgrades, etc.

I'm not saying that he can't do scheme running pretty well or anything like that. Just pointing out that you seem to misrepresenting @daniello_s's point, which they have made repeatedly .

Hear, hear! 

[AverageBoss]

14 minutes ago, tomjoad said:

I feel like if you see a Master that can teleport almost anywhere on the board every turn and the only thing you can think to do with him is "kill the biggest thing," that's on you and your creativity. Killing stuff is pretty awesome and valuable, but it's silly to say that free placement effects with near unlimited range don't have a wide variety of potential applications.

 

Well, there is that and having the single largest unit pool to pick from in the game by miles.

[katadder]

25 minutes ago, tomjoad said:

I feel like if you see a Master that can teleport almost anywhere on the board every turn and the only thing you can think to do with him is "kill the biggest thing," that's on you and your creativity. Killing stuff is pretty awesome and valuable, but it's silly to say that free placement effects with near unlimited range don't have a wide variety of potential applications.

this does require someone to get there 1st usually so hardly unlimited range, whether thats something to teleport to, or a waif/anchor combo.

this generally means there is already somebody there who can do the schemey things allowing levi to concentrate on what levi does, which is (attempt to) kill stuff

[CougDyver]

44 minutes ago, katadder said:

this does require someone to get there 1st usually so hardly unlimited range, whether thats something to teleport to, or a waif/anchor combo.

this generally means there is already somebody there who can do the schemey things allowing levi to concentrate on what levi does, which is (attempt to) kill stuff

And come on folks... the board is only 3'x3', so clearly not "unlimited" range.  Sorry couldn't resist.

But in seriousness, while it does need a waif/anchor combo, it can potentially be useful to have him use an AP for not killing things like dropping a scheme here or there, especially because the waif can't and in numerous hypothetical situations why it might be better for Levy to do so than the anchor (engagement, board setup, activations etc).

I agree as mentioned above Levy's AP are primarily best used for damage, and this will lower his damage output, but to suggest anything less than Levy still having a pretty great toolbox seems to be an overreaction to what is (in my opinion) well explained and relatively minor change.

I'm just waiting for Icemyn to dominate some other tournament with Levy or whatever crazy combo, so we can get to the real solution, cuddle Icemyn. 

[Icemyn]

20 minutes ago, CougDyver said:

I'm just waiting for Icemyn to dominate some other tournament with Levy or whatever crazy combo, so we can get to the real solution, cuddle Icemyn. 

Is that an offer to cuddle me? If so I expect dinner first.

[admiralvorkraft]

Here's me looking at Leveticus' card going, "He can give Slow? Who knew?"

Anyway, this makes me tempted to actually paint up Levi and the Waifs since he's less click-to-win now.

[96p]

Well Levi still kills 8wd models in one activation without batting an eye. The main Thing that popped into my Mind that now that I won't get him down to 2wd every turn I might even consider to use his second (0) action to get some cards out of saccing D&A. You could and can still play Levi as a pretty fast and versatile summoner who gets a lot of new abominations each turn and some desolation engines from them as well.

In my book Levi has lost almost none of his bite and I never really utilized his big hiring pool anyway. (I used 2, maybe 3 non outcast models with him not counting the Horseman for the Fun 4 Riders List). If I remember correctly I stood at "never lost a game using Levi in 5 years" and don't see that change due to this change.

[Grim]

Justin, Can we get someone to fix the pDF? When I print the file, pages 1 and 4 don't print out properly (only the upper left quadrant fills the printed paper). Can we get a printer friendly version like before? The new resource page does not offer a printer friendly version, if it does, then I apologize and would appreciate it if someone shared the link with me. Thank you!

[Nukemouse]

I think the cache change was unnecessary at this stage, the channel change is massive and it feels more like a kick whilst we are down than a well thought out additional change.

Is the any chance of making Leveticus playable during Gaming Grounds Neutralize the Leader matches?

[lusciousmccabe]

26 minutes ago, Nukemouse said:

I think the cache change was unnecessary at this stage, the channel change is massive and it feels more like a kick whilst we are down than a well thought out additional change.

Is the any chance of making Leveticus playable during Gaming Grounds Neutralize the Leader matches?

I never understood why Levi had 2SS cache in the first place. Was it because he was so much weaker than Hamelin he needed the extra boost? 

As for Neutralize the Leader, what does that have to do with the errata? There are threads discussing it, they generally tend to feature complaints that the scheme specificailly hurts Levi (and the Dreamer), followed by lists of other schemes which hurt other masters and discussion on why it is that you choose Master after seeing the schemes. I don't think that errata does anything to change that. 

[Nukemouse]

1 minute ago, lusciousmccabe said:

I never understood why Levi had 2SS cache in the first place. Was it because he was so much weaker than Hamelin he needed the extra boost? 

As for Neutralize the Leader, what does that have to do with the errata? There are threads discussing it, they generally tend to feature complaints that the scheme specificailly hurts Levi (and the Dreamer), followed by lists of other schemes which hurt other masters and discussion on why it is that you choose Master after seeing the schemes. I don't think that errata does anything to change that. 

Whether or not hamelin has too few stones really doesn't justify bringing a master with an already low cache down further after hugging his primary role in a very real way.

Because the only reason i could imagine the new version of the scheme being so brutal to him was the perception of Leveticus as overpowered, so if he was less so there's no reason to keep the scheme's current wording. I've never heard of any other schemes causing the opponent to automatically score when a master uses its core ability and it certainly seemed very targeted to Levi.

It is my perception that Wyrd is trying to remove Levi from competitive play with changes to the schemes and the soulstone change. I'm sure that will be considered unreasonable to most and it probably is but to me the scheme and the way these two cuddles have been bundled together is unreasonable.

On a more positive note, it is good to see Wyrd being slightly bolder with card changes. Though they shouldn't be done lightly I am glad they are willing to change existing rules when they seem to need changing rather than waiting for a new edition or resorting to banlists. Perhaps some weaker models or upgrades could see changes in the future?

 

[Durza]

How is one scheme that isn't even going to show up all that often removing him from competitive? 

This cuddle changes levi from dealing 12 damage a turn to 8, he isn't nuking nearly everything in the game down in one turn, hes just nuking down most things, and if he's in melee he's fully capable of doing 16 damage. 

There was playtesting and a lot of thought put into the cuddle, how about some games with him post cuddle before declaring he is now useless.

[Nukemouse]

Its hyperbole. Its still unreasonable for that scheme to give Levi/Dreamer a 2 VP disadvantage just for playing, no other scheme comes even close to that brutality. The cuddles on their own may be justified but packaged with the existence of that scheme i cannot help but see an intent to reduce the number of games he is in, not just to balance him. I don't think he will be useless at all though, after all many games still use the old schemes and even if the 1SS feels like an unnecessary extra to me its not the end of the world.

Losing a third of his theoretical maximum ranged damage is not a minor change. Base 7 and the made it very likely to hit and the damage was reliable but it still didn't always hit and certainly never always got severe unless you had an amazing hand or amazing luck. He was doing amazing damage comparable to scary masters like Perdita but i think suggesting he always got 12 or will always get 8 is unreasonable.

[daniello_s]

18 minutes ago, Nukemouse said:

Its hyperbole. Its still unreasonable for that scheme to give Levi/Dreamer a 2 VP disadvantage just for playing, no other scheme comes even close to that brutality. The cuddles on their own may be justified but packaged with the existence of that scheme i cannot help but see an intent to reduce the number of games he is in, not just to balance him. I don't think he will be useless at all though, after all many games still use the old schemes and even if the 1SS feels like an unnecessary extra to me its not the end of the world.

Losing a third of his theoretical maximum ranged damage is not a minor change. Base 7 and the made it very likely to hit and the damage was reliable but it still didn't always hit and certainly never always got severe unless you had an amazing hand or amazing luck. He was doing amazing damage comparable to scary masters like Perdita but i think suggesting he always got 12 or will always get 8 is unreasonable.

Some people seem to claim that so far during Levi's activation cards were not flipped at all but instead at the start of his activation opponent was simple asking Levi's player which model/models would he like to remove from the table straight away