Guild Sergeant?

[SpiralngCadavr]

Okay, what are these guys good for? On paper, they look like they're mostly there for the WP buff, but they have such poor stats for their cost that I don't see why I'd take one. Am I missing something?

[admiralvorkraft]

Kicking scheme markers around is... fun? I guess.

They make other Guardsmen... better is the wrong word, less bad? Slightly less bad.

The most actual use I've gotten out of them was with the (0) to move scheme markers, but it's not as good now that Plant Explosives has gotten harder and even then there were easier ways to get the points down.

[EnternalVoid]

Their best thing is their (0) action, because it can let you get around several limitations of scheme markers.  The big two is being able to get them closer than 4" from each other and the other is the fact you can move them right up to models that are hard to drop markers by because of their engagement range.  He can often handle a scheme by himself if left alone or get it done a lot faster with a partner.

I would agree this seemed a bit stronger with the core schemes over the Gaining Grounds but he still has some use being able to drop a marker at his feet, kick it 4", then drop another marker.

[admiralvorkraft]

2 hours ago, EnternalVoid said:

I would agree this seemed a bit stronger with the core schemes over the Gaining Grounds but he still has some use being able to drop a marker at his feet, kick it 4", then drop another marker.

True, true. I guess Lucius/Queeg/Hoffman/McMourning all do the same sort of work pretty easily.

[lusciousmccabe]

Basically if you're running Lucius with a lot of guardsmen he may be better than a lawyer for enabling commanding presence. He can't be targeted by Lucius for the most part (because that would make too much sense) but the marker kicking, speed buff and WP resists sort of make up for it.

In any other circumstances he's an obnoxious waste of points from what I can see.

[daniello_s]

Poor Sarge...

[4thstringer]

I wonder if he isnt better in gg.  If he can go late in the turn, he will be pretty good for leave your mark.  Hes a cheap model that can score hunting party and show of force(though hes not great at either, hed be easy to overlook)

He is still one of guilds better options for detonate and set up, especially now that our masters who used to be able to do it in 1 action like MCM and dougie no longer can.

[Ludvig]

I sometimes bring one with Lucius for the + to WP. Moving markers away from or closer to enemies can also make some schemes a lot easier.

I have also used a solo sergeant to do the scheme were you need markers near the center and over the halfway line while the strategy is one of the tablequarters ones where you don't want to be near the middle. Some of my opponents have just figured the effort to remove the markers wasn't worth loosing out on the strategy for.

[LunarSol]

The marker kick is the primary reason to take them, but they're definitely part of that whole Guardsman design that doesn't really work.

[Hagisman]

There just needs to be a post called "Solving the Guardsman Problem"

Guild Guard are arguably the worst minion model in the game. Their attacks are all 4 which means you should probably use them last activation if you can, but their Halt Trigger gives the arrest condition which ends at end of turn. 

Guild Riflemen are very fragile with very decent range and shooting. But they require Dashel in order to get extra Focus actions to be close to viable  

Dashel has no Zero action or tactical a that support the crew. His main draw is a melee attack that will always slow, but he wants to stay at long range with the Riflemen.

Wardens are decent 6ss, but they are not as durable as other 6ss models we have; such as Death Marshal, Lawyers, and Austringers(who don't need to get up close)  

Mounted Guard are arguably the best Guardsman model in the game. But at 7ss they compete with hunters  

 

[4thstringer]

I would say the wardens are tougher than death marshalls.   And often tougher than lawyers,  unless you are dropping a lot into saving them.   And ive done more with them than the lawyers generally,  now that condition removal is more common. 

[Ludvig]

Agree with 4thstringer. Wardens last longer than marshals. It's just that 6ss is the same as waldgeists and flesh constructs so in the grander scheme of things they're really not that durable. If you hit the trigger and get armour +3 they're great but that requires cards/luck which can be in short supply.

My biggest gripe with the guard theme is that a lot of models seem a bit under the power curve and that they don't have a way to shoot into engagement or push models around. If Dashel had some way to get people out of engagements and help their low walk values they would do a lot better. Riflemen would be among the best models in the game if you could actually shield them and still have them do their thing. Just swapping Dashel for Francisco (possibly with Diestro or Hermanos de armas) could actually go a long way to improving a few guard themed lists.

[lusciousmccabe]

1 minute ago, Ludvig said:

If Dashel had some way to get people out of engagements and help their low walk values they would do a lot better.

If I had a Guilder for every time I heard this.

They did add a similar ability to the mounted guard after it was suggested. It suffers from the same problem as all the Guard stuff though. You take the mounted guard to get your guys out of combat and Dashel to make them good at shooting and a Lawyer to help with Wp duels and Lucius to move them around and lo-and behold, you have a silly pile of models who all rely on each other to accomplish something fairly mediocre.

I suppose it is a faithful representation of an inefficient bureaucracy, at least. 

 

[Ludvig]

I'm aware that going whole hog on the guardsman theme is a trap. Of course adding 7ss worth of models to do what I suggested Dashel should have been able to already do isn't stellar efficiency  

If you take guardsman models in lists where the other models work better a lot of them aren't as weak as they seem when bunched together and played under Lucius. Just swapping your master to McCabe makes a huge difference.

[LunarSol]

Meh, even individuals aren't all that great, its just a lesser percentage of bad.  In general they just don't compare well to similarly priced models at all and more problematic, most things since have taken a cuddle to keep from being strictly better than them.

In general the Guardsmen just feel like they're from a game with units instead of individual models.  They read like you're supposed to have Dashal and 2 Rilfemen plus a Sergeant, 3 Guards and  a Dog and that's supposed to be like a third/half of an army instead of nearly the whole thing.  Dashal is certainly the big points sink there, but the basic Guard also just don't meaningfully contribute toward the game being pretty subpar at everything.

It's not enough to make them good, but the big fix for me is to work in some of their synergy concepts better.  Let Patrol trigger off any Guardsman and let Hounds become significant around any Guardsman too so you can partner them up in different configurations.  They also probably just need some specialization, as I feel much of their problem just comes from having a bit of everything to be bad at.

[4thstringer]

Has anyone messed with the Guard since the new GG came out?  I was thinking about their ability to jump to scheme markers, and I feel like they should be getting a similar (though lesser) powerup that the executioner did, where they are able to use their scheme marker based ability more often, since the need to drop scheme markers mid game has increased so much.

 

[Ludvig]

10 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

Has anyone messed with the Guard since the new GG came out?  I was thinking about their ability to jump to scheme markers, and I feel like they should be getting a similar (though lesser) powerup that the executioner did, where they are able to use their scheme marker based ability more often, since the need to drop scheme markers mid game has increased so much.

 

I have played them a few times but most of my opponents still hate the marker dropping schemes. In my last three games combined I had a total of one marker dropped by my opponents. I stopped taking Legalese on Lucius at the start of this year to encourage people to drop markers (and since fewer schemes score at the end anyway) but it doesn't seem to help, everyone still goes for clearing the table first.

[Vorschlag]

Use their (0) action to position scheme markers to allow hounds to get 1pt charges maybe?

[HegemonyKrcket]

I'm just starting to get into Lucius (I know he's not that great) as I'm primarily Neverborn, so I'm new to the Guardsmen discussion.  With that being said I had a few questions to ask the more seasoned guild players.  Mainly around ideas for "fixing" some of the models.

Re: Guild Sergeants it sounds like the main complaint is their stat line.  There (0) has a lot of uses, but not as many as they used to.  And the other models they're buffing are just not that great.  Is that correct?  Other questions I have are... "Would you rather have the Wp buff be a +flip or a straight +1?"  And "Is the +1 Wk Aura big enough?"

I've got some ideas/questions about Guild Guard and Dashel as well.  But given the thread title I figured I'd focus on just the Sergeant 

[Ozymandias79]

I've been playing around with a list but haven't had a chance to try it out yet:

McCabe w/ Badge of Speed, Glowing Saber, Promises

Luna

Captain Dashel with Arrest Him

Guard Sgt

Mounted Guard

Mounted Guard

Warden

Guild Hound

Guild Hound

Cache: 2

Cache is small but I find I don't use them much with McCabe and he can use the saber to get more.  Starting next to Luna and the Sgt makes the dogs even faster and this list can really get in your face or up to score schemes quickly.  Dashel and the Sgt will need some help from McCabe to keep up.  I just want to run it and see how it goes.  

[trikk]

20 hours ago, HegemonyKrcket said:

I'm just starting to get into Lucius (I know he's not that great) as I'm primarily Neverborn, so I'm new to the Guardsmen discussion.  With that being said I had a few questions to ask the more seasoned guild players.  Mainly around ideas for "fixing" some of the models.

Re: Guild Sergeants it sounds like the main complaint is their stat line.  There (0) has a lot of uses, but not as many as they used to.  And the other models they're buffing are just not that great.  Is that correct?  Other questions I have are... "Would you rather have the Wp buff be a +flip or a straight +1?"  And "Is the +1 Wk Aura big enough?"

I've got some ideas/questions about Guild Guard and Dashel as well.  But given the thread title I figured I'd focus on just the Sergeant 

The (0) is useful but Df4 is horrible. I`d rather the buffs work on something more than Guardsmen (the auras can stay the same). The 4 SS Old Cranky is a better buffer than the sergeants.

[Gnomezilla]

Oh, I see how it is. Talk up how utterly useless Lucius et alia are, and then take him for yourself. Harrumph. 

But you had some very intriguing ideas on how to tweak them, so if you dig up the five page long thread o' suggestions, please share them. Especially what you were saying about how to shift Dashel to a front-line candidate supporting those further away instead of those alongside him, which was fascinating but since I was paying attention to my game went in one ear, rattled around in my brain-pan long enough to leave the gist of it, but then exited the other ear.

If we wanted +1Wp aura we'd hire oiran. They're just as useless as sergeants. The walk aura won't get larger, 3" is default for truly interesting buff auras which aren't over costed (as the witchling handler is with her 4" bubble). Trikk has the right of it and you could have obliterated the sergeant in the time it took to lightly restrain one warden.

2 hours ago, trikk said:

The (0) is useful but Df4 is horrible. I`d rather the buffs work on something more than Guardsmen (the auras can stay the same). The 4 SS Old Cranky is a better buffer than the sergeants.

Maybe set 'em both at 5ss cost? Old Cranky is insanely good even at 5, the sergeant would still be squishy at 5 but stalker-esque hitting power and schemey stuff might then make up for his low stats.

[trikk]

The main reason you take them are the auras (as the (0) is not worth the 6SS alone)

In order for the auras to have any effect you have to have 2-3 other guardsmen minimum.

If the auras would have a wider effect (not in inches, but in models they affect) they would probably be take more often, even with the current stats.

[HegemonyKrcket]

1 hour ago, Gnomezilla said:

But you had some very intriguing ideas on how to tweak them, so if you dig up the five page long thread o' suggestions, please share them. Especially what you were saying about how to shift Dashel to a front-line candidate supporting those further away instead of those alongside him, which was fascinating but since I was paying attention to my game went in one ear, rattled around in my brain-pan long enough to leave the gist of it, but then exited the other ear.

If we wanted +1Wp aura we'd hire oiran. They're just as useless as sergeants. The walk aura won't get larger, 3" is default for truly interesting buff auras which aren't over costed (as the witchling handler is with her 4" bubble). Trikk has the right of it and you could have obliterated the sergeant in the time it took to lightly restrain one warden.

Maybe set 'em both at 5ss cost? Old Cranky is insanely good even at 5, the sergeant would still be squishy at 5 but stalker-esque hitting power and schemey stuff might then make up for his low stats.

I've cut together a card for a "Lead from the Front" Dashel, but I figured I'd post it in it's own thread when I want people to tear it apart.  I'm also thinking of putting it up in the Henchmen board first.  For now, I figured I'd just jump on this thread and get some more info on the Sergeant.

Oiran are weird.  For 4ss they can put down markers, go super Defensive, and make a million melee attacks that most likely won't hit.

Cranky is really good, but there are some things that balance him out.  Being a totem (for example) and having low wds.  I've easily just taken him off the board with 1 AP.  And he's generally buffing models with pretty low stats.  But none of that matters.

But my take away is that the is sufficient, if not preferred over a +1 Wp.  Is that correct?  I can see the benefit of both, so just wanted to see.  It's just a matter of it effecting models other than Guardsman.  This is, of course, assuming that the suite of Guardsman aren't tweaked a bit.  Also, +1 Df isn't a sufficient increase on the stat-line.

 

[trikk]

27 minutes ago, HegemonyKrcket said:

I've cut together a card for a "Lead from the Front" Dashel, but I figured I'd post it in it's own thread when I want people to tear it apart.  I'm also thinking of putting it up in the Henchmen board first.  For now, I figured I'd just jump on this thread and get some more info on the Sergeant.

Oiran are weird.  For 4ss they can put down markers, go super Defensive, and make a million melee attacks that most likely won't hit.

Cranky is really good, but there are some things that balance him out.  Being a totem (for example) and having low wds.  I've easily just taken him off the board with 1 AP.  And he's generally buffing models with pretty low stats.  But none of that matters.

But my take away is that the is sufficient, if not preferred over a +1 Wp.  Is that correct?  I can see the benefit of both, so just wanted to see.  It's just a matter of it effecting models other than Guardsman.  This is, of course, assuming that the suite of Guardsman aren't tweaked a bit.  Also, +1 Df isn't a sufficient increase on the stat-line.

 

Oiran are 5SS + Merc tax

 

Cranky is absolutely Bonkers for 4SS. He`s not insignificant, buffs Wp, Df, swaps cards and gives SS. My friend plays this list: Wong with Ooh Glowy, McTavish, Cranky, 4x Roosterx, 6x Stuffed Piglets and Cranky usually gives 3SS back and Wong and McTavish get  to Df and Cranky puts down the marker for McTavish to push to.

 

 to Wp are more hand draining for the opponent. +1 Wp usually allowes you to block some attacks with high cards.

+1Df is a very good increase in statline. Especially the difference between 4 and 5 and 5 and 6 as suddenly you can make some enemies miss you.

 

As for Dashel. I think if his  to Attack Actions would work on melee actions he`d be pretty cool. Maybe a 1SS decrease but I think he fills his niche quite good. With A Debt he can do 3 + slow or 4 min damage which is pretty nice.