What if they changed Belles?

[Math Mathonwy]

What if Belles got the same treatment as the Metal Gamin? What if their Ca dropped to 6 on Lure and their Wd dropped to seven? How would it affect the Ressers and the overall Malifaux meta?

Edit: not saying that they need the nërf or that they don't. I'm more interested in opinions about what would happen if they were nërfed.

[MR TORGUE]

BATTEN DOWN THE HATCHES!!! THERES A STORM COMING!!!

Edit: FALSE ALARM LADS!

[MR TORGUE]

I believe the belle is fine as is. Its really powerful at luring and is primarily the resser answer for lack of ranged attacks. If your see one on the board you know exactly what its going to do - so play round it. 

Theres been enough debate over the Belle to date to see that things aren't really that bad. I'm not saying the metal gamin was broken or anything but it was hugely exploited through the mech rider to the point where it was becoming a problem for the game. 

My only request is that they give Oiran built in suits so they can lure without needing the cards in hand - maybe up their cast to 7/8 as well. Actually you know what.. GIVE EVERYONE CA 8 IF THEY HAVE LURE -  Then no-one can moan about it. 

[Math Mathonwy]

Ah, I realize that my original post was maybe a bit too short. I didn't mean to debate the Belles and their need for a nërf or not but was more interested in what people think that would happen if they were changed.

[BigHammer]

fwiw, Oiran's Lure is already Ca 8. It only lacks the Crow.

[Adran]

Personally, I would use Belles exactly the same on Ca 6 as I do on Ca 8. They would still do the same job. 

I only use them occasionally, and almost never more than 1 per list.

The drop in Ca might mean that the opponent is more likely to contest the cast, but I don't think it would make much difference overall. 

[Astrella]

I don't think it would have that big of an effect since it wouldn't really impact how you'd use them, just make them slightly less effective. Think they'd still be worth taking considering they fulfill a specific niche.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Assuming the changes you propose, there would be massive changes I can think of off the top of my head and I assume subtler ones I can't think of.

First of all if you instituted the changes you propose belles would pretty much disappear from resser lists. I know that's a big claim, but I honestly feel it's true. If a Belle's Ca dropped to 6 and their wounds to 7 why hire a rotten belle when for one more stone you could Hire Jaakuna Ubume? She has lure 6. manipulative, incorporeal, a hazardous terrain aura, and other features that for one stone more would make her a steal compared to a belle. Additionally I think even with the merc cost you'd be better served bringing in Performers to serve the role belles do. While their version of lure isn't as long range, and its a push, they bring so much more to the table in terms of the triggers they can bring to bear, don't mind me, manipulative, and precious that again comparing the proposed change to other available options really to me it would make the belle pretty much never take unless you ABSOLUTELY had to have their effect, and couldn't possibly spend 1 more stone to have it on a better model. 

Additionally it would have very bad consequences for Seamus, and especially the choice between his limited upgrades. Seamus was tested being able to heal with the synergy a ca 8 wp duel provides. Seamus, without that, is fragile as anything. Without having at least one or two models in the crew that can almost guarantee a heal when required, Seamus would drop from a solidly durable model, to one of the easiest masters in the game to kill. The only solution to which would be to just abandon ever taking bag o tools, because he would absolutely require the -2 wp aura to ever reliably heal. It isn't nothing to mention that. A change that fundamental would be like removing any key synergy any particular master was tested with and then severely cutting it back.

Another ripple effect would be, just like the metal Gamin, if belles were changed there would be increased calls to nerd back all the over powered for cost models in the game, and lets not pretend there aren't others who in terms of winning the game are far more egregious.

The Belle is certainly on the stronger end for cost, no arguments, and I argued such before they were released, but it isn't because of their Ca8. They have always had that, and being one of if not the Best Lure model in the game is their thing. They've been that way since the beginning of the game, and it was only midway through the current release of M2E that the ca 8 began to be complained of, and my personal feeling is that is because masters can't spend ss to add to their flips and so are more susceptible to it. There are certainly changes I would have made to the belle and I argued at the time that they didn't need and shouldn't have some of the things they were given late in beta testing, but it wasn't the ca8 lure.

[MR TORGUE]

1 hour ago, BigHammer said:

fwiw, Oiran's Lure is already Ca 8. It only lacks the Crow.

derp

[Math Mathonwy]

47 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Assuming the changes you propose, there would be massive changes I can think of off the top of my head and I assume subtler ones I can't think of.

First of all if you instituted the changes you propose belles would pretty much disappear from resser lists. I know that's a big claim, but I honestly feel it's true. If a Belle's Ca dropped to 6 and their wounds to 7 why hire a rotten belle when for one more stone you could Hire Jaakuna Ubume? She has lure 6. manipulative, incorporeal, a hazardous terrain aura, and other features that for one stone more would make her a steal compared to a belle. Additionally I think even with the merc cost you'd be better served bringing in Performers to serve the role belles do. While their version of lure isn't as long range, and its a push, they bring so much more to the table in terms of the triggers they can bring to bear, don't mind me, manipulative, and precious that again comparing the proposed change to other available options really to me it would make the belle pretty much never take unless you ABSOLUTELY had to have their effect, and couldn't possibly spend 1 more stone to have it on a better model. 

First of all, thank you for the input! Much appreciated!

I agree that Jaakuna Ubume would certainly be a very compelling option but, and maybe it's the terrain we use, I really don't see the Performers being at all in the same ballpark when it comes to dictating enemy movement. Push is just such an incredibly inferior mechanic compared to move. And that 18" range is also something else.

47 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Additionally it would have very bad consequences for Seamus, and especially the choice between his limited upgrades. Seamus was tested being able to heal with the synergy a ca 8 wp duel provides. Seamus, without that, is fragile as anything. Without having at least one or two models in the crew that can almost guarantee a heal when required, Seamus would drop from a solidly durable model, to one of the easiest masters in the game to kill. The only solution to which would be to just abandon ever taking bag o tools, because he would absolutely require the -2 wp aura to ever reliably heal. It isn't nothing to mention that. A change that fundamental would be like removing any key synergy any particular master was tested with and then severely cutting it back.

I do agree that it would change Seamus' playstyle a bit but not at all to the extent that you present. Ca6 is still equal or over to, I dunno, 90% of the Wp values in the game? And attacker wins ties. Now, I'm not saying that it wouldn't be a big deal if their Ca went from eight to six - it would be - but I don't think that it would invalidate Seamus the way you seem to think. Though I'm willing to entertain the thought that we play Seamus differently and I'm pretty much certain that you're a better Seamus player than I am.

47 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Another ripple effect would be, just like the metal Gamin, if belles were changed there would be increased calls to nerd back all the over powered for cost models in the game, and lets not pretend there aren't others who in terms of winning the game are far more egregious.

If I got to "fix" one thing in the game, Belles most certainly wouldn't be it. Heck, if I got to "fix" ten things, Belles would probably still not make the list. But this is a debate that has been treaded several times and I'm not interested in re-hashing it again. My point here was just what people would think would happen. So far we've had two people say that it wouldn't really change anything and one person say that belles would disappear.

47 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

The Belle is certainly on the stronger end for cost, no arguments, and I argued such before they were released, but it isn't because of their Ca8. They have always had that, and being one of if not the Best Lure model in the game is their thing. They've been that way since the beginning of the game, and it was only midway through the current release of M2E that the ca 8 began to be complained of, and my personal feeling is that is because masters can't spend ss to add to their flips and so are more susceptible to it. There are certainly changes I would have made to the belle and I argued at the time that they didn't need and shouldn't have some of the things they were given late in beta testing, but it wasn't the ca8 lure.

Metal Gamin were like they were from the start of the 2nd edition as well and things like the Mech Rider were extensively tested with it being able to Summon Metal Gamin in their old form.

[Adran]

To be fair, for most of the playtesting of the Mech Rider, it didn't summon Metal Gamin, because the Arcane effigy was so much better to summon. But it has since been errata'd to not summon effigies. 

[huntroll]

Anna Lovelace hard-counters Belles. I've never seen a point in Cuddling them or even complaining about them (they are good, but not that good), but now that everyone can take a Merc who has decent stats, good Ca based ranged damage and makes all movement tricks very hard to pull off it's especially pointless. Sure, she is kind of a counter-pick, but you know the opposing Faction in advance and she is a safe bet against Ressers and Neverborn.

[lusciousmccabe]

I agree with Fetidstrumpet that you'd see more jaakuna, but I don't think that's too outrageous considering she's rare 1. I'm not hugely fond of rare limits as a resource, but it's already part of the game so meh.

Apart from that I don't think it would have as dramatic an effect on the amount of belles played as what people do with them. Any list with belles would be that much less effective and need to rely more on luring friendly models. That's already a big part of what belles do in my experience but more so with other luring models, so belles would be losing their niche of reliable enemy luring.

You'd also have a better reason to take dead doxies, and Anna Lovelace would be less of a safe choice vs ressers. 

 

[solkan]

I don't think "I not saying this model should be cuddled, I'm interested in everyone's opinions on what would happen if they were" is an honest question if you start arguing with people over their opinions. 

 

[MEGAHORSE]

14 minutes ago, solkan said:

I don't think "I not saying this model should be cuddled, I'm interested in everyone's opinions on what would happen if they were" is an honest question if you start arguing with people over their opinions. 

 

But really, what's the point of it except by getting topic views/posts of people getting upset? OP asked for people's opinions on a hot button issue and is anyone really surprised it went off topic? I havent played the game long, but similar topics have come up in what seems like nearly once every 2-3 weeks. Is someone starting some plan to try to show there is controversy over Belles? I mean, you'll do what you've always done, adapted. There are other models with Lure, you use them or dont bother with Lure. Seamus gets hit hard. Done, that's it, you dont really need a ton of people fighting over semantics to tell you that. Gamin got a cuddle, and now we need to speculate week after week what will happen to Belles because they excel in one specific scenario. I just wish the forum had more to offer than complaints and worrying about Belles. 

Apologizes if this came off as an attack on you, or OP. It's not. It's just a dead horse. 

[lusciousmccabe]

Where's the argument?

[Patzer]

2 minutes ago, MEGAHORSE said:

I just wish the forum had more to offer than complaints and worrying about Belles. 

Haha... I freaking love it! 

 

[daniello_s]

IMO nothing major would happen to Belles if they Lure Ca would be dropped to 6 and wounds to 7 as still they would perform their role more than adequately to their cost.

Still you would have premium support model for the low cost of 5SS but at least your opponents would be able to have a chance to deflect Lure.

There is also another way to tackle around that Lure issue: change Sue's The Man in Black rule from 'Until the end of the turn...' to 'Until he's next activation...'. Sue is merc so all factions would have an access to him and you would avoid a 'shite-storm' from Resser players

[Math Mathonwy]

9 hours ago, solkan said:

I don't think "I not saying this model should be cuddled, I'm interested in everyone's opinions on what would happen if they were" is an honest question if you start arguing with people over their opinions. 

Huh? So I should not engage people about the thing I wish to talk about if I limit the thing I wish to talk about?

9 hours ago, MEGAHORSE said:

I just wish the forum had more to offer than complaints and worrying about Belles. 

Be the change you want: go start new topics. I will even do you the courtesy of not coming in and telling that they are "dead horses" even though I have likely seen them before since I've been here for quite some time  

[Math Mathonwy]

9 hours ago, huntroll said:

Anna Lovelace hard-counters Belles. I've never seen a point in Cuddling them or even complaining about them (they are good, but not that good), but now that everyone can take a Merc who has decent stats, good Ca based ranged damage and makes all movement tricks very hard to pull off it's especially pointless. Sure, she is kind of a counter-pick, but you know the opposing Faction in advance and she is a safe bet against Ressers and Neverborn.

Unless I'm extremely mistaken, Anna Lovelace only affects enemy models which really doesn't "hard-counter" Belles. Sure, it means that they can't drag their own models out of combat but Lure can do quite a bit more than that.

[oryxwild]

I think belles would go from 0-3 to 0-1. Certain lists would disappear - the infamous belles + seamus list being one - but largely things would be similar with less belles. 

I'm not a very experienced Malifaux player, so feel free to disagree; this is my .02c

Belles already cost a pretty decent amount for what they're doing. In a sinister rep list they do a lot of work with that slow; in any other list they are a moderately durable model that does little to no damage. Yes lure is powerful... and if you take 2 belles, that's 10ss of nearly pure support. 

Because I play bag-o-tools, mostly, I've begun taking a lot of dead doxies instead of belles. It's been a wonderful experience; Since I don't have to take Not Too Banged Up, the first doxy is a free upgrade. They do a *lot* more damage than the belles, and are generally more resilient (+1 df and wp is very useful, as is hte push trigger). They can hand out fast on death (and if seamus is nearby he can res them again), and they can potentially put out two scheme markers, make three attacks, etc etc. The ability to push in any direction, rather than just toward the belle, is very useful. Finally, the ability to use a high mask to make your opponents model unable to cheat defensive flips is just nuts. 

I'm not saying belles are bad... And, outside of sinister rep lists, and Headhunter and related, I don't think they're op in the way that other people seem to think they are. 

Plenty of resser masters don't particularly care about belles as is. There are many equally good models to hire, and many that are better to summon. Belles have a role; they are very good at it; Ressers are not sweeping the tournament scene with Belles. If they were cuddled, I don't think they'd see much use outside of Sinister Rep and Headhunter. 

[mythicFOX]

<modhat>

A friendly reminder to be nice to each other.  Some of the above is heading toward the argumentative. 

Thanks in advance.

</modhat>

[Myyrä]

2 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Unless I'm extremely mistaken, Anna Lovelace only affects enemy models which really doesn't "hard-counter" Belles. Sure, it means that they can't drag their own models out of combat but Lure can do quite a bit more than that.

I'd actually say that existence of Anna Lovelace is actually a good thing for Belles. She can prevent most models from leaving, and will certainly stop most out of activation movement, after Belles have Lured an enemy model to compromising position.

[Bengt]

7 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Unless I'm extremely mistaken, Anna Lovelace only affects enemy models which really doesn't "hard-counter" Belles. Sure, it means that they can't drag their own models out of combat but Lure can do quite a bit more than that.

She also only stops them from ending the lure in the Aura, so her effective range is smaller than the 8 would imply.

[MEGAHORSE]

8 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Huh? So I should not engage people about the thing I wish to talk about if I limit the thing I wish to talk about?

Be the change you want: go start new topics. I will even do you the courtesy of not coming in and telling that they are "dead horses" even though I have likely seen them before since I've been here for quite some time  

...lol I actually have. And none of them are about belles  Might wanna do some research yourself bud

Back on topic. As others have stated, I'm sure Wyrd knows about the abuses that pushes, places, free walks, etc do to the game and the NPE some can experience from it. Anna seems to be this fix. Unlike Taelor (A supposed silver bullet to summoning), her pulse doesnt need to be activated, nor does she need to charge the target. Sure, Lure still has uses outside of that, but it's not a complete hoser!