dgraz Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 Better balanced game by far is Warmachine / Hordes. Lmao. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 Don't get me wrong, WM/H is a fun game, but the balance is nearly as atrocious as that of WH/40k. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PraetorDragoon Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 Better balanced game by far is Warmachine / Hordes *snicker* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 What guild does far better than gremlins is stand alone models. Gremlins are built on synergy and staple models, without it the crew is much, much, less effective. Using Warmachine as an example, gremlins would function like Menoth does in regards to their warjacks and choir. With Choir they are good, without they are barely worth consideration. Guild does not suffer from this reliance. A guild build can incorporate many more tools, where as Gremlin builds will always start with the same core model group and then have to decide what tool to leave out. Though I agree that Malifaux is not a particularly well balanced game (with this many unique models, combination of interactions, and objectives, it really cant be. Hard counters are and will always be present), Warmachine/ Hordes definitely is not better unless you limit yourself to only the so called "top tier" casters/ locks, facing another top tier list. All you need to do is compare poor Amon Ad Raza from the Protectorate of Menoth against virtually any other caster in the game. Sure he can win occasionally, but it is an uphill battle in all but the rarest of circumstances. Truthfully there are few table top games that I would consider to have any real appreciation or even consideration of balance. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 Truthfully there are few table top games that I would consider to have any real appreciation or even consideration of balance. Well, even in chess, white is OP. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PraetorDragoon Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 Well, even in chess, white is OP. White begins and Black wins. Clearly you should know that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 Balance wise chess is leaps and bounds closer than any table top game. Each player utilizes the same exact number of pieces and has access to the same exact options. Unless you are playing Steve Jackson's Nightmare Chess, you wont see your opponent with more than 2 knights, 2 rooks, 2 bishops, 1 king, etc. or able to alter the movement/capture characteristics of their pieces. The only variance is which player goes first, however even that advantage can be mitigated if playing a series of games and alternating color. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 Balance wise chess is leaps and bounds closer than any table top game. Each player utilizes the same exact number of pieces and has access to the same exact options. Unless you are playing Steve Jackson's Nightmare Chess, you wont see your opponent with more than 2 knights, 2 rooks, 2 bishops, 1 king, etc. or able to alter the movement/capture characteristics of their pieces. The only variance is which player goes first, however even that advantage can be mitigated if playing a series of games and alternating color. I.... didn't really mean that chess is unbalanced. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiralvorkraft Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 I would say, and this is with some clear hesitation, that Gremlins are the faction in Malifaux that is the most open to abuse simply because of the attention (or lack thereof) that it got in the beta. If you're looking to kill everything easily they give you some of the best options for doing that, that's not why I play Malifaux. I play Malifaux because, on a good day, I can throw down Lucius and start trading models for points. It doesn't work in all scheme pools, but it's satisfying as hell to watch the sacrifices pile up as you climb to victory over a pile of your own corpses. I play Malifaux because I can bring a legal team out into the bayou and trap a Gremlin on stilts in a perpetual bureaucratic nightmare. I play Malifaux because I like the idea of a science wizard, a pyromaniac, a prize fighter, and a metal-bender teaming up to fight the establishment and protect the workers. Screw killing everything, in no other game could I bring an elite team of Death Marshall's into the Quarantine zone planning to reconnoiter the area, frame Jack the Ripper for murder, and plant drugs in his safe house so that the Governor General's secretary can point to it and say, "Hey, don't worry about all the civilians we kill, we're keeping Brilliance off the streets and out of the hands of your children." You know what Meliondor, thank you for reminding me why I play this game and why I shouldn't nitpick as much as I do. Who cares how fragile Guild Riflemen are? Or that we don't have a 7 stone minion that can compete with the options in Neverborn/10T. I'm going to play the game the way I want to play it and stop trying to think about it like other wargames. You play the way you want. If that means optimized Gremlins then f*ck it, buy Gremlins and optimize the hell out of them. But I don't like moonshine or denim shorts, so I'll stick to my good Guild whiskey and fashion. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 I would say, and this is with some clear hesitation, that Gremlins are the faction in Malifaux that is the most open to abuse simply because of the attention (or lack thereof) that it got in the beta. I would agree with this for the most part. I would also add that signal to noise levels during both closed and open beta's have contributed significantly to some of the games most wonky interactions, and not just in Gremlin's. Though anyone can learn to play the game, not everyone is good at ferreting out potential abuses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 wait until ulix summons 3 warpigs in 3 turns, or you face somers gremlin factory.Nico summons Hangeds. But mostly, Ulix summons War Pigs and Piglets, which, while nice, are really one-dimensional. Nico meanwhile can summon a Belle when he needs one, a Necropunk if that is more needed, a Flesh Construct to Devour Ophelia or a Hanged to make ZFiend sad. I seriously don't think that Ulix holds a candle to Nico in the summoning department.As for Somer - he summons half-dead Bayou Gremlins! That is nowhere near in competition to Nico. Sure, when you add his whole machine, it's certainly nice and doesn't take much in the way of resources but then again Nico can also take very powerful support options like Nurses (the only Minion better than a Slop Hauler). Truthfully there are few table top games that I would consider to have any real appreciation or even consideration of balance.Agreed, but Malifaux is one of the best balanced minis games. Certainly comparable to WM/H. I would argue that only Infinity is better balanced and it's kind of a special case in that its rules system makes it essentially very easy to balance.I would say, and this is with some clear hesitation, that Gremlins are the faction in Malifaux that is the most open to abuse simply because of the attention (or lack thereof) that it got in the beta. If you're looking to kill everything easily they give you some of the best options for doing that, that's not why I play Malifaux.And yet they don't win tournaments left and right. They are being played and they win their fair share but they don't dominate. And really, are Gremlins that much worse than, say, Dreamer and Collodi and Lilith? Or Levi and Daw and Tara? Or Colette and Ramos and Kaeris? I really don't think so.Or that we don't have a 7 stone minion that can compete with the options in Neverborn/10T.Hunter is pretty boss. As is Abuela, though she's an Enforcer so doesn't help Lucius's synergies. And you really win Neverborn when it comes to 5SS Minions.You play the way you want. If that means optimized Gremlins then f*ck it, buy Gremlins and optimize the hell out of them. But I don't like moonshine or denim shorts, so I'll stick to my good Guild whiskey and fashion.Philistine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgarbonzo Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 The reason they aren't winning tournaments is because a lot of the faction isn't released and some (like me) won't proxy thus limiting options. For the very first AWP Vassal League I ran the exact same list for every strat and scheme and made it to the semi finals which was the only game I lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 The reason they aren't winning tournaments is because a lot of the faction isn't released and some (like me) won't proxy thus limiting options. For the very first AWP Vassal League I ran the exact same list for every strat and scheme and made it to the semi finals which was the only game I lost.I am willing to be proven wrong once Gremlins get their reinforcements but I will be seriously surprised if they start dominating unduly once they do. Time will tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengt Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Agreed, but Malifaux is one of the best balanced minis games. Certainly comparable to WM/H. I would argue that only Infinity is better balanced and it's kind of a special case in that its rules system makes it essentially very easy to balance. Hmm, do you mean that Infinity is well balanced between factions? For it always seemed to me like there a substantial number of unit types and weapon options within the factions are grossly overpriced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Hmm, do you mean that Infinity is well balanced between factions? For it always seemed to me like there a substantial number of unit types and weapon options within the factions are grossly overpriced.Oh aye, across factions balance, not within factions balance (I play the Shasvastii Sectorial and Seed Soldiers make me seriously sad).But that's a good point, actually - I think that in "within faction balance" Malifaux beats WM/H utterly and completely. Across factions they are comparable, I think (and Infinity beats them both). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meliondor Posted June 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 In faction balance wise Malifaux is really good, with just some small exceptions (executioner...). Much better than WM/H for example. Between factions I think Malifaux is more on a 40K level or like rock, paper, scissor ;-) At the moment Gremlins do not have that much options (without Proxies) and still Guild struggles to beat them, even if ignoring shemes and building a special anti-gremlin list (see answers in this thread). Perhaps that is the problem here, we are missing a special anti-gremlin master... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 I really don't get it. Sorry. I beat Gremlins pretty regularly with my Guild. I don't see the vast inter-faction imbalance between the other factions, either. What factions would you claim to be a bad matchup? Which pairings are especially unbalanced? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 What guild does better than Gremlins is probably live, and work independantly. Yes, there are some very durable Gremlin models, and soem that work pretty well without support, but its the interlinkign pof their models that is where they do best. If Gremlins do what you want to do better than Guild, then go for it. On the whole, I don't see gremlins better than guild. Gremlin crews can often be easy to unpick when you know how they work due to the increased interdependancy. Are they doing huge amounts of damage to themselves? Kill the haulers. Are they using lots of Dumb luck (or even thinking Luck), Kill the healers, and kill Lenny to prevent the auto trigger. Are they sending models to all areas of the board? Kill them, or kill the pigapult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Between factions I think Malifaux is more on a 40K level or like rock, paper, scissor ;-)Huh? Do you see any other Faction vs Faction match-ups where one Faction is the clear underdog? I mean, I don't agree that Gremlins have a clear advantage against the Guild but for the sake of the argument, are there other such situations that you see? Because 40k balance is absolutely atrocious both acroos factions and within factions and Malifaux doesn't come anywhere near.Also, I might be wrong, but I thought that WM/H also had some less than stellar Factions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Also, I might be wrong, but I thought that WM/H also had some less than stellar Factions? Each supplement changes this around, but for a time, the Retribution didn't have any chance against Legion, Trollbloods had a hard time against Cryx, Minions lacked choice in the first place and were a clear underdog etc. I hear Khador is the top dog at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clockwork Top Hat Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 What can the Guild do better than Gremlins? Other than whine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 What can the Guild do better than Gremlins? Other than whine? The Guild doesn't whine. My answer is in post #2, and it was just off the top of my head.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clockwork Top Hat Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 The Guild doesn't whine. My answer is in post #2, and it was just off the top of my head.. Referring to the OP. I actually really like some of the Guild's stuff *looks at Death Marshals with longing* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absolution Black Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Referring to the OP. I actually really like some of the Guild's stuff *looks at Death Marshals with longing* *puts arm around top hat's shoulder* Interested in the Guild, I hear? Good , good. Now let's take a little stroll whilst i hand you these papers. And a pen..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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