What can we do better than Gremlins ?

[dgraz]

I did not find any suggestions in this thread to do this.

A quick perusal shows a plethora of ideas:

 

Condition removal. No one does it better than Guild.

 

Cast denial. Sonnia is bonkers at it.

 

Dita is also way harder to kill than Ophelia.

 

Constructs. Having no Armor is simply not true for Hoffman lists.

 

 

But seriously though, Gremlins are shaky knockoff Guild. Sure they might be able to do the same things as Guild, but cheaper and faster, but they come with the implicit issue of the wheels sometimes coming off. They have really strong support models, but once you know what they are and scalpel them out, they become a lot less frightening.

  

Also, keep in mind that Gremlins are sort of an all-or-nothing faction. You either lose big against them, and feel like they just do everything better than you, or you win big versus them, and you just kind of scratch your head as the opposing crew crashes and burns.

 

 

What guild does far better than gremlins is stand alone models. Gremlins are built on synergy and staple models, without it the crew is much, much, less effective. Guild does not suffer from this reliance. A guild build can incorporate many more tools, where as Gremlin builds will always start with the same core model group and then have to decide what tool to leave out.

 

 

Guild does shoot. Guild shoots well and accurate. Gremlins do insane amounts of damage should they get to it, but it's not like it's impossible for the Guild to take down Lenny etc linchpins.

 

 

@Meliondor - if you want to play Guild and have problems playing them against Gremlins, I recommend you take this to the Battle Reports forum and you may get some more specific advice from the friendly folks who frequent it.  Math Mathonwy and Adran in particular give very insightful feedback on games which could help you to see options that aren't apparent during the game.

 

 If you choose to ignore those things because you've already made up your mind then that's on you. To me, your mind appears closed and unwilling to take any suggestions. If you truly are interested in figuring out this problem, then I strongly suggest you follow the last suggestion I quoted from Argentbadger above. You have presented an awful lot of 'best vs worst' case scenarios and I think if you put up some actual lists and Strats/Schemes people will be able to pick apart your issues much better.

[admiralvorkraft]

I mean, I'm quick to hop on the Gremlin whining train, but this thread has managed to change my outlook on the faction.

 

Heck, next time I see them I might even grab for an Executioner. Lackey it into position late in the turn and let it eat easy to kill models in a faction where low Tn Terrifying (Living) actually matters and his trigger denial is gold. Plus Gremlins like to burn cards and if they end up discarding stones to keep Lenny alive I'm basically okay with that.

 

You know, with Hoffman you could even build for Terrifying (Living) between the Peacekeeper and Langston. Let Howard rock armor +2, give the Peacekeeper Nimble and puppet them into the middle of Somer's factory all the while cackling like a madman. Is it an auto-win? Obviously not, and it shouldn't be. But I don't think Gremlins can do anything quite like that.

[Adran]

I'm Really not a fan on Ranking factions on things, because its very genralised and easy to pick holes in. (I'd certainly argue that 5 of the Guild masters don't really do any ranged damage, putting them as one of the lowest factions for Ranged Masters)

But, lets assue that you are sayign gremlins are the number 1 ranged faction, making the guild the number 2 ranged faction. (And I'd say that since the release of Ophelia and Von Schill in the first Edition, guild haven't been the best ranged faction, just the faction with the most ranged attacks)

I would say guild is probably number 2 or 3 ml faction, where as gremlins is probably more like 5 or 6.

 

Your problem is  that your opponents Gremlins playstyle is a counter to the way you want to play guild. That is a very different statement to gremlins is a counter to guild. Guild can do plenty to beat Gremlins, but then You aren't playing Guild the way you want to play it. 

Its very Similar to a ressurectionist player comign up and complaining that Sonnia, Ramos or Sommer are out summoning them, and doing it with out all those restrictions that they have to worry about. ( In all honesty, Nicodem needs corpse markers. None of the otehr masters generally care. Seamus can use them, once per turn, but its not somethign I expect to see him do miore than a coupel of times  a game, and Yan lo might need them to re-summon an ancestor back, that will have dropped a corpse counter when it dies most of the time. See I really hate these sort of generalisations, they are so wrong and easy to poke holes in.)

 

And I'm afraid there isn't an easy answer. You need to play differently against Gremlins, or be prepared to lose more often. Prehaps you have to break out Hoffman or McCabe against Gremlins, rather than your normal lists, or select different crews to support Perdita rather than just her family. Use her to throw an Executioner into the middle of the summonign  factory, or at the Pigapult, which really struggles to hurt your crew once it is engaged. he not quite the powerhouse he used to be against gremlins, auto healing with his slow to die action, but he heals up fairly easily when attackign a bayou gremlin.

 

The suggestions to play gremlins (from me at least) was that it will show you the problems a Gremlin player encounters to get their crew to work, so you know where to apply the pressure. That can help you turn what you seem to think is a 30-70 game to much nearer the 50-50. And thats not making serious play style or even cre selection changes, thats just using what you have in teh best way against your opponent 

[Myyrä]

I'm Really not a fan on Ranking factions on things, because its very genralised and easy to pick holes in. (I'd certainly argue that 5 of the Guild masters don't really do any ranged damage, putting them as one of the lowest factions for Ranged Masters)

But, lets assue that you are sayign gremlins are the number 1 ranged faction, making the guild the number 2 ranged faction. (And I'd say that since the release of Ophelia and Von Schill in the first Edition, guild haven't been the best ranged faction, just the faction with the most ranged attacks)

I would say guild is probably number 2 or 3 ml faction, where as gremlins is probably more like 5 or 6.

Remind me, which factions have more than two dedicated ranged dps masters? Then tell me, which of those factions can also bring other great ranged models to support them.

Your problem is  that your opponents Gremlins playstyle is a counter to the way you want to play guild. That is a very different statement to gremlins is a counter to guild. Guild can do plenty to beat Gremlins, but then You aren't playing Guild the way you want to play it. 

Its very Similar to a ressurectionist player comign up and complaining that Sonnia, Ramos or Sommer are out summoning them, and doing it with out all those restrictions that they have to worry about. ( In all honesty, Nicodem needs corpse markers. None of the otehr masters generally care. Seamus can use them, once per turn, but its not somethign I expect to see him do miore than a coupel of times  a game, and Yan lo might need them to re-summon an ancestor back, that will have dropped a corpse counter when it dies most of the time. See I really hate these sort of generalisations, they are so wrong and easy to poke holes in.)

And I'm afraid there isn't an easy answer. You need to play differently against Gremlins, or be prepared to lose more often. Prehaps you have to break out Hoffman or McCabe against Gremlins, rather than your normal lists, or select different crews to support Perdita rather than just her family. Use her to throw an Executioner into the middle of the summonign factory, or at the Pigapult, which really struggles to hurt your crew once it is engaged. he not quite the powerhouse he used to be against gremlins, auto healing with his slow to die action, but he heals up fairly easily when attackign a bayou gremlin.

You always have to adjust your playstyle and list based on strategy, schemes and your opponent when playing Guild. If you are trying to do it otherwise you are going to lose way more often than you are going to win.

The suggestions to play gremlins (from me at least) was that it will show you the problems a Gremlin player encounters to get their crew to work, so you know where to apply the pressure. That can help you turn what you seem to think is a 30-70 game to much nearer the 50-50. And thats not making serious play style or even cre selection changes, thats just using what you have in teh best way against your opponent

It is my experience that if there is significant difference in the skill levels of the players, the better player will win 90% of the time no matter which factions are played.

[Soul Puppet]

Apparently Somer and 16 Bayou Gremlins is a thing...

[The Zinc Lich]

[mod hat]

 

Cleaned up some meandering posts. If you want to discuss the comparative value of other faction's master's ranged attacks, there's plenty there for another thread.

 

[/mod hat]

[Ludvig]

Apparently Somer and 16 Bayou Gremlins is a thing...

 

I really want to try Ryle against that. Give him that mod with the +   on all attacks from Hoffman, give him   on damage flips from the little toolkit and get to shooting on every model in sight for one AP killing a fair bunch hopefully (With this setup he automatically takes another shot with a trigger whenever he damages something for those who do not have his card).

 

Sucks that I don't have Hoffman yet. For so many reasons 

[Adran]

I really want to try Ryle against that. Give him that mod with the +   on all attacks from Hoffman, give him   on damage flips from the little toolkit and get to shooting on every model in sight for one AP killing a fair bunch hopefully (With this setup he automatically takes another shot with a trigger whenever he damages something for those who do not have his card).

 

Sucks that I don't have Hoffman yet. For so many reasons 

You know that modification will only work for 1 attack.

That being said, I've done this with a samurai. It was fun. Many gremlins died.

 

Edit. I was Wrong, Diral was right, its discatrd to get Ramsto  all Sh and Ml actions for the duration of the activation.

[Dirial]

You know that modification will only work for 1 attack.

 

For all actions during the activation, I think.

[zFiend]

I really want to try Ryle against that. Give him that mod with the + on all attacks from Hoffman, give him on damage flips from the little toolkit and get to shooting on every model in sight for one AP killing a fair bunch hopefully (With this setup he automatically takes another shot with a trigger whenever he damages something for those who do not have his card).

Sucks that I don't have Hoffman yet. For so many reasons

[EnternalVoid]

Apparently Somer and 16 Bayou Gremlins is a thing...

 

I actually played against Some and 15 Bayou Gremlins back right near the beginning of Second Edition.  I had taken a defensive Zoraida list as it was my first time playing against Gremlin in M2E, ended up finding out Bayou Gremlins don't like Illuminated *Or Bad Juju back before Nexus of Power was errataed*.  Still it was crazy how many activations he got after me *and kind of amusing*.

[Joel]

Just read the initial question, not the thread.

First things that came to mind were:

1) reach things on high shelves

2) wash

[zFiend]

Just read the initial question, not the thread.

First things that came to mind were:

1) reach things on high shelves

2) wash

And this thread should have been left at this answer from the get go. Would have been just as useful.

[rgarbonzo]

Can't believe I'm gonna go and defend Guild but here goes, as a long time Gremlin player there are plenty of things the faction struggles with. Terrifying is one of them, if your opponent is taking a lot of Bayou Gremlins then that means even low TN Horror tests are going to eat cards. F'n Austringers. Hoffman is really fun to play and an interesting counter to Gremlins since often enough you will be bringing a lot of Armor models which Gremlins struggle with. Pathfinder and Traps are a really good thing, really, really, good. Sonia, she is an insane caster that can often enough get those blasts and devastate a gunline pretty easily. Now are there ways for a Gremlin player to counter? Sure there are, but it requires playing Gremlins that are more like Guild then just run of the mill Bayou Gremlins. 

[Silencer]

I only had first game with Ophelia's gremlins during the tourney and they seem to be near impossible to beat. The things coming to my mind how to beat them is using cover, using terryfing models (hello Peacekeeper !) or bring your own shooting with Lucius so the outactivation don't hurt. Anyway to drain them out of cards is good way to go - leaving them with cards allows to dumb luck any freaking shooting that inflicts major hurt on any models... The worst thing you can do is to overextend giving the bountiful of targets they can pick on.

EDIT. Also shot the shit out of Slop Haulers - they give massive healing IMO.

[wizuriel]

Just read the initial question, not the thread.

First things that came to mind were:

1) reach things on high shelves

2) wash

 

Not so sure on the first point.

In game Lenny is HT3 

Model wise the kin boxset is as big as most humans (and some of them aren't even fully grown yet). 

[zFiend]

In game Lenny is HT3

The problem is to actually get Lenny around to do that. So the problem still stands nonetheless.

[Omenbringer]

Can't believe I'm gonna go and defend Guild but here goes, as a long time Gremlin player there are plenty of things the faction struggles with. Terrifying is one of them, if your opponent is taking a lot of Bayou Gremlins then that means even low TN Horror tests are going to eat cards. F'n Austringers. Hoffman is really fun to play and an interesting counter to Gremlins since often enough you will be bringing a lot of Armor models which Gremlins struggle with. Pathfinder and Traps are a really good thing, really, really, good. Sonia, she is an insane caster that can often enough get those blasts and devastate a gunline pretty easily. Now are there ways for a Gremlin player to counter? Sure there are, but it requires playing Gremlins that are more like Guild then just run of the mill Bayou Gremlins. 

I would agree with the Austringers and Sonnia recommendations but disagree a bit on the other two.

 

The general Gremlin Leader upgrade Liquid Bravery goes a very long way toward countering the old handicap against Wp duels. It isn't like their WP is that far below average after all. That 8" aura is also fairly large, and with Som'er in particular can be projected even further via Skeeters. When the Control Hand runs out, or the gremlin player just doesn't feel like burning them to cheat Horror duels there is always Bayou Two Card to cheat instead. Skewing your crew toward exploiting WP duels might work but that is it's own limitation for you as well.

 

I have also never found Armor particularly troublesome for Bayou Gremlins or piglets. Perhaps it is just the way I run my gun lines and pig squadrons, but I never count on them doing more than a single Wd with each successful attack. Not caring about quality of hit, only quantity. This is the reason Som'er or Ophelia "Death Stars" are a thing. You can have all the Armor in the world on a model but (with only perhaps one notable exception I can think of), when 4 Bayou Gremlin's (also applicable with Piglets) concentrate their effort upon a model it will die if they each succeed with their 3 attacks (cant recall any models with more than 12 Wds) regardless of the targets Armor value. Notice I didnt say succeed well, only succeed, and ties on the attack succeed. All those :-fate damage flips are also a boon for the gremlin player since they truffle out those Jokers, and if the Black is safely held in the players hand you dont have to worry about it showing up and ruining the party ever. All these extra card draws also provide successive opportunities to see the red joker again in the turn thanks to the rapid cycling of the deck gremlins are capable of.

 

Armor might be a worthwhile consideration against a more elite Gremlin build but not really against a Bayou Gremlin gunline or piglet squadron that is built on the premise of "punches in bunches". Wong can also make Armor much less of an issue for his chosen heavy hitter.

 

You can see if they work for you but from what I have seen they are of much less value than say perhaps focusing your crew build on creating large numbers of damaging pulses and blasts.

[rgarbonzo]

I would agree with the Austringers and Sonnia recommendations but disagree a bit on the other two.

 

The general Gremlin Leader upgrade Liquid Bravery goes a very long way toward countering the old handicap against Wp duels. It isn't like their WP is that far below average after all. That 8" aura is also fairly large, and with Som'er in particular can be projected even further via Skeeters. When the Control Hand runs out, or the gremlin player just doesn't feel like burning them to cheat Horror duels there is always Bayou Two Card to cheat instead. Skewing your crew toward exploiting WP duels might work but that is it's own limitation for you as well.

 

I have also never found Armor particularly troublesome for Bayou Gremlins or piglets. Perhaps it is just the way I run my gun lines and pig squadrons, but I never count on them doing more than a single Wd with each successful attack. Not caring about quality of hit, only quantity. This is the reason Som'er or Ophelia "Death Stars" are a thing. You can have all the Armor in the world on a model but (with only perhaps one notable exception I can think of), when 4 Bayou Gremlin's (also applicable with Piglets) concentrate their effort upon a model it will die if they each succeed with their 3 attacks (cant recall any models with more than 12 Wds) regardless of the targets Armor value. Notice I didnt say succeed well, only succeed, and ties on the attack succeed. All those :-fate damage flips are also a boon for the gremlin player since they truffle out those Jokers, and if the Black is safely held in the players hand you dont have to worry about it showing up and ruining the party ever. All these extra card draws also provide successive opportunities to see the red joker again in the turn thanks to the rapid cycling of the deck gremlins are capable of.

 

Armor might be a worthwhile consideration against a more elite Gremlin build but not really against a Bayou Gremlin gunline or piglet squadron that is built on the premise of "punches in bunches". Wong can also make Armor much less of an issue for his chosen heavy hitter.

 

You can see if they work for you but from what I have seen they are of much less value than say perhaps focusing your crew build on creating large numbers of damaging pulses and blasts.

I'll have to defer to you on that Omen as I don't play Death Star Ophelia or Summoning Gunline Somer as they don't fit my playstyle. Course the way I play Grems seems to be a bit more ruthless than most. 

[Meliondor]

I'll have to defer to you on that Omen as I don't play Death Star Ophelia or Summoning Gunline Somer as they don't fit my playstyle. Course the way I play Grems seems to be a bit more ruthless than most. 

 

Exactly this death stars, where everyone has +1 armor, a free ram, healing from slophaulers, perhapts some anti-WP duel tech is a problem. Especially if there are more than enough points left for sheme runners, because gremlins are so cheap.

 

You should try it out, it makes some guild players cry

[zFiend]

You should try it out, it makes a guild player cry

I fixed that a bit for you.

[rgarbonzo]

Exactly this death stars, where everyone has +1 armor, a free ram, healing from slophaulers, perhapts some anti-WP duel tech is a problem. Especially if there are more than enough points left for sheme runners, because gremlins are so cheap.

 

You should try it out, it makes some guild players cry

Deathstars are vulnerable to blasts and other such effects, besides the fact that I also don't run Slop Haulers all that often either, no real reason to since Bugs are that much awesomer.

[Dirial]

I fixed that a bit for you.

 

A very specific one?

 

Also, this specific build (volume of shooting instead of quality) should be overcome specifically by Perdita quite easily.

[zFiend]

A very specific one?

 

Possibly. 

[Bengt]

I have also never found Armor particularly troublesome for Bayou Gremlins or piglets. Perhaps it is just the way I run my gun lines and pig squadrons, but I never count on them doing more than a single Wd with each successful attack. Not caring about quality of hit, only quantity. This is the reason Som'er or Ophelia "Death Stars" are a thing. You can have all the Armor in the world on a model but (with only perhaps one notable exception I can think of), when 4 Bayou Gremlin's (also applicable with Piglets) concentrate their effort upon a model it will die if they each succeed with their 3 attacks (cant recall any models with more than 12 Wds) regardless of the targets Armor value. 

Several Masters have 14 wounds, but mainly I think it's rather optimistic to except them all to hit at all with Sh 4. Maybe if they are shooting at an Ice Golem, but a lot of the worthwhile targets are going have 5-6 Df.