The Mechanical Rider needs to be nerfed.

[Dracomax]

In other words, Mech Rider isn't replacing Langstom but rather the Molemen and therefore it doesn't matter that what she does during the two first turns isn't as much as could be expected from 12 stones since later on it's much better. Also note that Mech Rider is super-durable later on and, unlike three Molemen, retains her effectivity even at one third of wounds left (when two of the three Molemen would be dead).

Does that make more sense?

I'm not sure that is a problem. A 12 SS model should be better than 3 4SS models. It has to compete for space, and is at a 3-4 AP per round disadvantage in a game where AP are one of your more valuable resources. It needs to be close, but enough better that you will take the loss of those AP for the gains you get. I'm not saying it definitely is not a problem, just that it is not necessarily one. It's a question of scale.

 

What we should really be looking at is game balance as it applies to unexpectedly encountering the model(s)- are they way too good for their own good? Are they NPE? How are they when you are facing them flat footed?

Honestly, I disagree. Or at least, potentially disagree. It depends on what you mean by "flat footed."

 

If what you are saying is, "From the first time you see it, it should never have any nasty moves that can seriously disrupt your plans if you aren't expecting them" I have to disagree entirely. That is not the way the game is designed, and I feel it would diminish the game to design that way. Not to mention it is really hard to control. Where do you stop? Lilith's no-LOS Tangle shadows? Ramos Spider creation? The Schill's ;blast and ;pulse resistance? All of them are nasty surprises that can make a game all but impossible if you aren't expecting them, and all of them can be mitigated if you know they exist—Even Sonnia Vs. the Schill can win and do lots of damage.

 

However, if you are saying "the model has abilities that can not be compensated for, even if expected, and the lists must be built specifically to counter it, (i.e. the models that must be brought to counter it are not models which will help against the rest of the crew/faction" then I guess I can agree. You should not have to have an entirely different crew for the Mech rider than for all Arcanists. Luckily, the things that do best against the Mech rider also do so against most Arcanist models.

 

In this respect, I'd say there is as much cause for concern as the Belle spam, the Rail Golem, or anything else; We should keep an eye on it over the course of several tournaments, and see how it performs in house games, and not jump to conclusions based on a relatively small sampling of games.

 

In the mean time, if you feel it is so OP, play with/against it, develop strategies and crews for taking it down, and then try those crews against Arcanists who do not bring the rider. See if crews which do not go against the rider but are optimized for rider decimation are significantly worse than the crew you would otherwise have taken—and then post batreps. You might find some new strategies/tactics/crew combinations you hadn't thought of. You might become better at the game. If nothing else, you will have more evidence for your cause than "I don't like it because theoryfaux"

[Fetid Strumpet]

I agree Ausplosians.

@Dracomax, just a minor point of clarification. I totally agree there is not enough data one way or another, and the rider should not be cuddled. Even though I personally do think it is a bit much for the cost, there just isn't anything to prove its a problem unless we want to cuddle models in any crew that comes in near the top in any major tournament. I agree it should just be watched, but unlike your other examples of belles and the rail golem the issues with them aren't equivilent. They should be paid attention to, as should any model who generates alot of conversation, but the rider is in a different category of scrutiny as she is the only model we have a definitive data point for, given a big, multi day, competitive, mixed meta tourney. Its a small indication , I freely admit that, but she does deserve a higher level of scrutiny then your other examples, who also bear looking at.

[Dracomax]

Dear Malifaux community, myself included.

Please stop asking for changes for finalised models every second week and after every event that has more than 4 people. It isn't going to happen and Justin is probably screaming at his monitor telling us to argue so vehemently about things actually in Beta.

 

You ask as if we don't do this in the beta forums. the issue there is that the things that many people feel most strongly about are things that have been mentioned, argued about, and left unchanged. There's only so many times you can say the same thing without repeating yourself.

[Math Mathonwy]

I'm not sure that is a problem. A 12 SS model should be better than 3 4SS models. It has to compete for space, and is at a 3-4 AP per round disadvantage in a game where AP are one of your more valuable resources. It needs to be close, but enough better that you will take the loss of those AP for the gains you get. I'm not saying it definitely is not a problem, just that it is not necessarily one. It's a question of scale.

There is no problem (I'm not advocating for a change to Mech Rider currently). But dgraz claimed that a 12SS model that doesn't accomplish much on the first two turns is a big liability and I disagreed.

 

You ask as if we don't do this in the beta forums. the issue there is that the things that many people feel most strongly about are things that have been mentioned, argued about, and left unchanged. There's only so many times you can say the same thing without repeating yourself.

Aye, this. I have three times brought up that Whistling Dixie for Ophelia is a lousy ability and I'm not going to do it again (well, maybe in the autumn beta).

[dgraz]

Does that make more sense?

First......I get frustrated when I can't get my point across (because everyone should be able to read my mind and know exactly what I mean)......so, that's my frustration and nothing to do with you. Which is why my last post kinda indicated that I was giving up on the debate.....before I get more frustrated and start taking it out on you....which is pretty tough for my mental immaturity

 

I think part of our disconnect may boil down to play-style. Your comment about a 12ss model not being an extraordinary amount to spend on scheme stuff was my clue. It's more complicated than just '12ss of scheme stuff'.

 

I believe only getting 2 AP for that 12ss is a massive investment....and much, much worse if you're still coddling it on turn 2......your Molemen example, that's 4-8 AP and 4 Activations I've "lost". That means a lot to me.......they may not do anything hugely significant on those first two turns, but the 'soft' impact of Activation order is huge (in my opinion)......they allow my more expensive models (or my master) to go much later in the turn, after seeing what you're doing...then capitalize on your actions.

 

That's my play-style.....semi-aggressive. I play the VP game with most of my crew, but almost always hang on to some killer until later in the turn to take out something important on your side. The masters I play support this style ('Dita, Sonnia, Raspy, Marcus). That's also part of my psychological warfare......I want to come at you hard in the beginning to get you back-pedaling....now you're reacting to me....you're playing my game.......it doesn't always work, there are plenty of cool characters that are nonplussed by it...but I've generally lost nothing by trying.

 

So, the Mech Rider hiding in the back and losing Activations opens that player up for my play-style. Once the Mech Rider gets going, I've already done the damage I need to do to weaken the crew, then I can focus on the rider and overcome her defenses. It's like going at the enemy piecemeal......it's tough to deal with an entire crew at once, but send part of it and I'll make sure you lose that part.

 

I'm not a swarm player, but I'm also pretty anti-elite. I take plenty of low to mid-cost stuff for strat/scheme and Activations and my master with maybe one high cost model (like 'Cisco, or Sam)....and that elite model I bring is usually someone that has serious killing power (like 'Cisco or Sam). Those low cost guys are giving my expensive one more mileage. If my expensive one is hiding in the back for two turns it's counter to my style.....and would open me up like I said above.

[sharpobjects]

Just because a relatively small group of people at one of the first big Tournaments since M2E broke have not yet figured out how to counter a model does NOT mean that model should be cuddled.

 

Adepticon had a total of 147 participants in Malifaux events from Thursday-Sunday. The Masters had 45 participants for the two day event. People drove/flew from New York, Nebraska, Michigan, Indianna, Wisconsin and Tennesse in addition to the players from in state Illinois. There may have been even more states represented but those are the states of the players that I personally met and played against. 

 

I understand that this was one tournament but it brought people in from all over the United States. Many of these individuals are long time experienced players but a few were new to the game I will admit. Where forums are concerned there is always going to be a small sample that actually take the time to type posts and or read what others post. If three or four people take the time to post you can believe that there are much more than that out there that agree there are issues that just dont take the time to post themselves. It's a factor that we need to always be mindful of when we try to either dismiss or shout down the few that post.

 

I faced the Mech Rider twice at the Masters and the only issue I had with it was its ease to summon models. The only model I had issue with it summoning was the Arcane Effigy. It's a damn good model even at 2 wounds. I  agree with posters that a 12SS models needs to be good or else why hire it. I would just advocate for a slight adjustment on its TN to summon and I would remove its ability to summon the Arcane Effigy. If my memory serves me these two issues were brought up in beta. I also agree that nothing is going to happen anytime soon and we need to see more data as the year progresses. It is worth keeping an eye on and discussing from time to time. 

[Dracomax]

Adepticon had a total of 147 participants in Malifaux events from Thursday-Sunday. The Masters had 45 participants for the two day event. People drove/flew from New York, Nebraska, Michigan, Indianna, Wisconsin and Tennesse in addition to the players from in state Illinois. There may have been even more states represented but those are the states of the players that I personally met and played against. 

 

I understand that this was one tournament but it brought people in from all over the United States. Many of these individuals are long time experienced players but few were new to the game I will admit. Where forums are concerned there is always going to be a small sample that actually take the time to type posts and or read what others post. If three or four people take the time to post you can believe that there are much more than that out there that agree there are issues that just dont take the time to post themselves. It's a factor that we need to always be mindful of when we try to either dismiss or shout down the few that post.

 

I faced the Mech Rider twice at the Masters and the only issue I had with it was its ease to summon models. The only model I had issue with it summoning was the Arcane Effigy. It's a damn good model even at 2 wounds. I  agree with posters that a 12SS models needs to be good or else why hire it. I would just advocate for a slight adjustment on its TN to summon and I would remove its ability to summon the Arcane Effigy. If my memory serves me these two issues were brought up in beta. I also agree that nothing is going to happen anytime soon and we need to see more data as the year progresses. It is worth keeping an eye on and discussing from time to time. 

And yet, that is still a relatively small sampling of players at a single tournament. Add in that we are all "new" to M2E, and especially with wave 2 models, and yeah, there are going to be a few unexpected surprises.

 

However, if the only model that really stuck in your craw was the effigy, then perhaps the Effigy is the issue. Just a second possibility. It indeed it is the issue, adding a line to the effigy along the lines of "this model may not be summoned" or something might work, as I can't think of anything else in arcanists that can summon one.

[decker_cky]

That is an unfair criticism of the situation. I would point out that this thread is much like the Rotten belles one in the way that there is a mess of meta applied, "if you know he is taking X you take Y" discussion, showing that you could possibly counteract OP or NPE models by building your list to take out the problem model, and so on. I can't blame anyone, theoryfaux is fun! We like to talk shop!

But there is a gaping hole in all of these arguments. Remember, the game rules are written as both sides choose their factions in secret, reveal them at the same time, choose your crews in secret, and reveal them at the same time. You cannot start a discussion with "if you know they are taking X...." because you should never know. Even if your opponent says "I am taking Belle spam" or "I am taking the Mechanical Rider" or "I am playing Arcanists" before the game it is perfectly legal for them to pull a switcheroo on you at the moment of truth- and it is perfectly legal. You are expected to have to build your crew having no idea what your opponent is pulling out of that case.....

What we should really be looking at is game balance as it applies to unexpectedly encountering the model(s)- are they way too good for their own good? Are they NPE? How are they when you are facing them flat footed?

So far from what we have seen from Adepticon the Mechanical Rider could well be falling into the "too good for its own good" category.

 

 

I think you're missing the point people are making. Beyond just what's good and what's not, there's a meta game. People will tend to take certain models, and it's something you have to compensate it. There will always be some models better than par, and those will be taken more often than other models. If you have trouble dealing with those models, then you should factor that into list building. 

 

If you're facing ressers, and know that they generally will take some Rotten Belles and that creates issues for you, you take some tools that help you deal with Belles. You don't have to construct a list designed only to crush Belles (though sometimes, it's a gamble worth making if they're particularly prevalent in your particular meta). 

 

At this point, it seems like the same thing is happening with the mechanical rider. Regardless of being broken or not, it's such a great toolkit that it's very popular in arcanist lists currently (and Levi). Levi is a bit harder to predict, but let's say there's a 70% chance arcanists will take the rider. If you really struggle with the rider, and it's very likely to come up in lists, you should blindly take counters to it (though your list should still be focused on winning games overall).

 

With way less knowledge of what you're facing, this kind of building is the norm in Warhammer. Going into a game, I know that one army out of 15 or so can build their army so that only magic attacks can hurt a lot of their list. This means I need to include the tools for that. There's probably a half dozen things I'll factor into my list with an understanding of meta. Meta makes some things better, some things worse, and some tools essential. 

 

This tournament, arcanists dominated with the mech rider. Next big tournament, people will be expecting the mech rider, will have played against them enough to deal with them effectively, or at least contain them. This is how even independently of rules changing, the meta of what is used evolves. 

 

Some things turn out to be broken. But even with those, there's often meta choices that can be made to contain that brokenness. 

 

We all know that you can come online and cry out about something being overpowered. Some gaming groups will even change the rules - that's entirely within their power, and house rules can be healthy for the local game. But looking at the worldwide game of Malifaux, very little will get errata'd, so particularly if going to large tournaments, you're better to focus on learning the meta and coming up with ways to deal with it.

[dgraz]

Great post Decker.

[rancor709]

What this tells me is, I'm going to be getting all the riders on the table and seeing there impacts again. Both on crews with no riders and against crews with riders. Perhaps the best way to deal with much rider is to joust it off the table

[Grez90]

What I would like to know, is yes arcanists with mech rider may have taken out 3/4 top spots. But how many Arcanists were there, and how many across the tournament were using the mech rider?

 

We could be looking at a small remote amount of very good players using the mech rider to its max potential, whilst 10 or so other players dwindle in mid table still using the Mech Rider. If 8 of the top 10 placing people were arcanists w/Mech Rider, then I would be worried. But 3 out of the top 4 of a 45 player tournament is not proof enough IMO. One of those players could be the most skilled player in the states, another could have had one of the luckiest weekends of thier life, and the latter might have been fortunate by an opponent making a crucially wrong decision.

 

I think give it 5-8 tournaments and if the Mech rider is there in 3 out of the top 5 lists consistently, then you have a problem that is effecting the whole game. But 3 out of 5 in one single tournament is not enough evidence.

[Grim]

 

However, if the only model that really stuck in your craw was the effigy, then perhaps the Effigy is the issue. Just a second possibility. It indeed it is the issue, adding a line to the effigy along the lines of "this model may not be summoned" or something might work, as I can't think of anything else in arcanists that can summon one.

Awww poor Collodi now can't summon an Arcane Effigy because of the Mechanical Rider. Boohoohoo

[Tograth]

to be perfectly honest, I think it's a case of people needing to learn to play against the mech rider.

 

For many folks, assuming they play once a week, they have only had the final rules for maybe 7 or 8 games. How many of those would be against arcanist crews with the mech rider? 

 

chances are, for most players, its very few, if any. Not knowing what you are playing against will be the biggest reason crews with it did so well.

 

 

 

When you figure out how it works, dealing with it can be relatively easy, even late in the game, and until players have that experience, then it's very much a case of folks needing to LTP. 

[rythos42]

What I would like to know, is yes arcanists with mech rider may have taken out 3/4 top spots. But how many Arcanists were there, and how many across the tournament were using the mech rider?

 

 

1st place didn't take MR at all (queue: oh, all Arcanists are broken!! ). 2nd place apparently took him enough to make up for it!

 

(And I don't recall if anyone knows about 4th place. He was playing primarily Rasputina, so not so fluffy or synergizey and maybe MR didn't show up...I don't know).

[Fetid Strumpet]

He did. 4th place player is a good friend of mine and before I moved was my most common opponent.

I don't know how often he used her but the list he sent me, which might have been changed up a bit between rounds, had her in it, and in a follow up conversation he was mentioning how regular games with another friend of ours showed him the worth of m rider.

[bertmac]

I played against viks for the first time the other day turn one I had a  vik in my midst handing out weak damage 5 attacks ignoring armour, hard to wound and hard to kill seemed pretty broken.

 

I think maybe next time I'll keep my crew a little further back than I did that last game.

[Grim]

responding with LTP is like a bitch slap to the face

[Mister Shine]

Learn to post a battle report where you feel the Mechanical Rider demonstrated its overpoweredness, learn from helpful advice other forums members post in response and if it is still perceived as overpowered have definitive proof to show to the devs

 

....play

[Dracomax]

responding with LTP is like a bitch slap to the face

 

Yet, sometimes, you just got to slap a bitch.

 

MOre seriously, I understand where you are coming from. LTP does feel like they are totally saying "You just fail because you suck." I don't think most people here mean it that way, but that is what it feels like.

 

However, that doesn't mean the sentiment is wrong. There are some models people have complained on end about taht can be dealt with well just by changing your tactics, or not always bringing a single crew. (There's a reason my signature is what it is.) Learning to play better solves a lot of problems, and asking for advice against a model is generally more effective at finding counters than complaining about the model.

 

That is not to say that the Mech Rider does not need a bit of tweaking. maybe it does. Justin is planning on doing some more internal playtesting based on this thread, and I guarantee that a lot of the players who have said "I don't think it is OP" are going to be trying it out to see if they are wrong. I also gauruntee that future results in tourneys throughout the next year will be looked at closely to see if this is a case of a model being more powerful than it should be. But as much as you want to say "model X is OP" when it slaughters you, you have to try and game around it, because that really is the only way to determine if it is just perception, or if there is something actually wrong.

 

Sometimes, you just need to learn to play better, or adjust your style. If you don't, you will continue to find nasty surprises.

[AgrilusHunter]

I played against viks for the first time the other day turn one I had a  vik in my midst handing out weak damage 5 attacks ignoring armour, hard to wound and hard to kill seemed pretty broken.

 

I think maybe next time I'll keep my crew a little further back than I did that last game.

Yup, experience is definitely the best teacher. Also, just a heads up, Leveticus also ignores armor, hard to wound, and hard to kill, but he can do it from 12 inches. Plus he has a trigger on the same spell that negates damage prevention with soulstones. Gotta love those Outcasts and their shenanigans, right?

[Lewkas]

People seem to be forgetting that the summoned models have to take 2 wounds that is not reducible.  On a 4 SS construct this is half of it's wounds straight away so to say your getting 12SS worth of summoned models with the Mech Rider is perhaps a little bit unrealistic.  I used it against Lucius to summon Fire Gamin which I then used to tie up the Guild Riflemen.  While this was effective and I won the game I did find myself holding mech rider back for 2 turns and I can guarantee you that my opponent wouldn't let me do that again.  There are plenty of models in malifaux that will destroy you the first time you come up against them but once you work out a counter everything balances out again.

[rgarbonzo]

The correct answer to Mech Rider is the Gremlins. All problems in Malifaux are solved by the little green guys, I just wish you all would take my advice and start to play them, well no, honestly I don't want that because then the Gremlins are OP threads will pop up left and right....

[Dracomax]

The correct answer to Mech Rider is the Gremlins. All problems in Malifaux are solved by the little green guys, I just wish you all would take my advice and start to play them, well no, honestly I don't want that because then the Gremlins are OP threads will pop up left and right....

That can't be right. The gremlins don't have a rider.

 

...Unless you count the dude3 on a chicken, I guess.

[rgarbonzo]

Honestly with Grems you can outactivate and Pigapult the Rider to death on turn 1, or you can use Rooster Riders to engage anything that is big and scary. Kin are really good at the elimination game as well as a magical Killjoy. There are tons of answers to life's questions, one must expand their minds into the green...

[RagingRodian]

Perhaps I should elaborate a bit about talking about metas and game balance....

I am pointing out that you can't just rely on theory and meta to prove that a model isn't OP (or just too sucky for its cost). You have to remember the environment that you are supposed to be thrown into for crew selection and what you have to work with once the game starts. Meta and theory can help out once the games start, but a large chunk of meta will fall apart as soon as you get ready to play a game.

It is true, you should be able to expect anything, including the troublesome models. But it isn't a correct assessment to say that you should be able to plan for your opponent's picks just based on his faction. Each faction has half a dozen masters that play differently from each other, and play differently again based on upgrades taken, who again play differently based on crew synergy. Add in a few dozen minions/totems/enforcers/henchmen, plus mercs. Realistically, while you should theoretically be able to counter anything in practice you just can't plan for every possibility, and if you focus on just countering those problem models you may very well have a sub par crew if you are facing something else. Then there is individual playstyles for each player.

People may have little trouble in their local metas. But you have to go back and look at the metas- are the players working with a limited model selection? Does the guy always play the same thing? Do the player(s) involve actually know what they are doing? Do the players have decent model selections but actually tell their opponent what they are taking or choose their models right in front of their opponent? All of this throws off the meta.

Granted, meta and theory will let you have a better idea what you are in for once you start the game. Every model can be killed or countered. The real questions when it comes to game balance are....Does the model take a disproportionate amount of resources to kill/counter? Is it a far better choice for it's price than its contemporaries? Is it starting to require a specialized list to not have it dominate games? Will it still be a useful choice if it is reduced in power?