Terrain and You! Or: Why is Master X OP?

[Mister Shine]

Hello there New Players and Old Players alike! I've noticed this coming up in a lot of different threads on different forums and in game store discussions and thought it could use some additional discussion and reference:

 

TERRAIN IS A BIG DEAL IN MALIFAUX

 

The amount, placement and type of terrain will affect your game. And not in a small way either. Now most people will realize quite quickly that if they use a traditional Warmahordes board of 2 trees and a small hillock Masters like Perdita get muchmuch stronger as their shooting attacks dont have to worry about pesky LoS or Cover, so we have to cover the board in a lot more stuff to make things fair. Great guide Shine, seeya next time. But wait, picture the following scenario:

 

Edonil and Mako are having a game. Edonil wants to try out his Seamus crew and Mako just finished building an entire Western town-themed board so they decide to play on that. The board has a moderate density of cool looking buildings and they start their game. Since each building has the blocking trait because of its solid walls Edonil has an easy time using Seamus' Back Alley action, which allows him to move massive distances when out of LoS, and snipes out large portions of Mako's crew, costing him the game. Both agree that Seamus felt a bit Overpowered and wonder how he got through Playtesting like this.

 

However, in this scenario the board density might be fine but the terrain type is not. This board is nearly 100% terrain with the "Blocking" type. And while it looks awesome it gives Masters like Seamus a huge advantage and Masters like Perdita a huge disadvantage. Think of it another way, a board full of buildings is going to wind up as fair as a board full of rivers. Great for one type of crew (ones that can shoot over water) but less good for the type of crew that needs to Oregon Trail right over the river.

 

This is Your crew on the Unbalanced Board

 

 

Ok, so how do we handle this? Well locally we use a rough rule of thirds. For density squish all your terrain into 1/3 of the board. Fill that third right up. That terrain should look like this:

 

1/3 of the terrain should be blocking. Buildings, walls, Piles of crates, etc.

1/3 of the terrain should be obscuring. Vegetation, Walls with holes in them, an area of Mysterious Fog, etc

1/3 of the terrain should be Difficult. Rivers or water, uneven or rough flooring, snow, mud, blood, disco flooring, etc

 

Then we want to spread that terrain out from the third we've bundled it into. This is an area that requires a bit more finese and less quick and easy to remember rules. I spread it out and make it look like a cohesive board then consult my opponent to make changes or perhaps notice things like the inacessible sniper's nest I accidently made for models with "From the Shadows" (an ability that lets models set up outside their deployment zone, like in the clocktower that would take 3 turns to get into normally). More experience with different models will help you in figuring out placement and what to avoid. In general though you want to have a roughly even dispersement of terrain types (So as not to start the melee walking master behind three rivers). Experience will help with figuring out the benefits of specific terrain setups

 

So lets go back to Mako and Edonil. In their game they were missing a lot of the terrain types, but Mako still wants to use the board he worked so hard on. Well, he still can. Look closely at your terrain elements. Mako's Saloon has windows so he and Edonil both agree that it will be Obscuring to shoot through the windows of it and angle it so that the blocking wall wouldn't be blocking Mako's LoS to Seamus from most angles. They say that the main "roads" between the buildings have become muddy from over use and are difficult open terrain. The abandoned church has enough holes in the walls that its considered Obscuring now and the floors inside are going to be difficult as well.  Their next game finds Seamus having a lot more trouble Back Alleying and Mako able to more accurately predict where Seamus is going to try to go and how to counter him. Mako still loses, but the game is much more enjoyable.

 

 

 

This is a rough guideline of what to do for terrain. You can most certainly have more or less terrain, change the percents, but this guide will help you in experiencing Crews and Masters in a setting they were designed for, giving more meaning to how you set up your crew initially and just generally ensuring a more balanced and fun gameplay setting.

[zFiend]

Thank you for a very good post. 

[Dracomax]

I'd modify that to 1/4 blocking (buildings) 1/4 Difficult, 1/4 Obscuring, and 1/4 scatter(low walls, barrels, bushes, etc. Things that can be shot over or gone around easily, but which provide cover/ impede movement.

[dgraz]

I'd modify that to 1/4 blocking (buildings) 1/4 Difficult, 1/4 Obscuring, and 1/4 scatter(low walls, barrels, bushes, etc. Things that can be shot over or gone around easily, but which provide cover/ impede movement.

That's usually how we roll too.

[LunarSol]

I'd modify that to 1/4 blocking (buildings) 1/4 Difficult, 1/4 Obscuring, and 1/4 scatter(low walls, barrels, bushes, etc. Things that can be shot over or gone around easily, but which provide cover/ impede movement.

 

The issue is, most things that provide cover are technically blocking as well.  I think that's a general issue the terrain rules have with Seamus's ability.  A lot of things in the game probably has the blocking trait even if they don't necessarily block Seamus due to HT 2.

[dgraz]

The issue is, most things that provide cover are technically blocking as well.  I think that's a general issue the terrain rules have with Seamus's ability.  A lot of things in the game probably has the blocking trait even if they don't necessarily block Seamus due to HT 2.

Huh? Obscuring terrain doesn't "Block"........you can have plenty of soft cover around that isn't blocking....you don't even have to make it "Dense".

 

Which is why I think he added (buildings) to his Blocking spot........this could also be big rocks or some such.

[LunarSol]

Huh? Obscuring terrain doesn't "Block"........you can have plenty of soft cover around that isn't blocking....you don't even have to make it "Dense".

 

Which is why I think he added (buildings) to his Blocking spot........this could also be big rocks or some such.

 

I was referring more to hard cover options like low walls.  Barrels and other things like gravestones are probably technically blocking terrain too, even if they're too small to actually block anything. 

[Mister Shine]

For those not well versed in Seamus: Back Alley requires being out of LoS to use then places Seamus within 1" of blocking terrain. So he could go from behind a building and pop out of a Ht1 Blocking gravestone for example, but its up to you and your opponent to fully declare what the terrain type is for each piece you're using.

 

For example, in a lot of our gyus we use forest markers (size of a cd) as Obscuring, but the trunks of the trees themselves (about a pencil width) are blocking.

[LunarSol]

I do really appreciate topics like this because I find map design to be a woefully underdeveloped art.  Great looking tables are of course, well presented, but the art of terrain that plays well is a tougher topic to come by.  It's something I'd prefer to see more of a developer driven guildline from over mutually agreed upon decisions between players because it really does come down to questions of how powerful abilities like Back Alley, Blind Fighter and even rules on the terrain itself like Cover are supposed to be.  Much like any discussion with game balance, its hard to really have that discussion without a bias created by how the terrain rules affect your specific model.

[PicklesGrr]

Interesting post. I think we use enough terrain but probably an uneven mix. I don't mind that too much as you are supposed to choose your list after terrain & so on & I like themes.  I will try the re classifying  thing though, fighting snipers with melee Ressers in a ruined (Mordheim) town can be challenging.

 

If you follow the OP guidelines you full up a 1 x 1 square with each of the appropriate terrain types. Scatter terrain, the missing type if you are splitting into 1/4s, could fill out any of the other sections.

[Dracomax]

For those not well versed in Seamus: Back Alley requires being out of LoS to use then places Seamus within 1" of blocking terrain. So he could go from behind a building and pop out of a Ht1 Blocking gravestone for example, but its up to you and your opponent to fully declare what the terrain type is for each piece you're using.

 

For example, in a lot of our gyus we use forest markers (size of a cd) as Obscuring, but the trunks of the trees themselves (about a pencil width) are blocking.

Of course, he can't easily go back from that terrain, so he is likely to get hit a couple of times there.

 

Honestly, I really think the 30-25% rule is a good rule of thumb for general games, but that individual groups need to find the right mix for their groups; not every group has a Seamus player, for instance.

[Omenbringer]

Just to add my opinion, 30% table coverage should be an absolute minimum with errors on the more rather than less side.

[Mister Shine]

Yeah I wouldnt use LESS than what I said here, more is probably ok, so long as you're keeping the ratios correct so you dont wind up with OP and UP models

[Hagisman]

Love the post.

 

For another game I play, a guy made a good post on the over use of open space.

 

In essence people were putting up hills in the game with only a few spots on the table had trees and hills. So the models that needed cover were effectively free points for the opponent while the more elite units didn't have to worry.

 

I don't see this too much in Malifaux, but there have been occasions where I've seen board without any form of cover near the middle of the board. To add onto what the original poster said about the 1/3 rule:

 

AVOID PLACING TERRAIN IN CORNERS AND TABLE EDGES!

 

There have been games I've played where the only terrain was near the table edges that were completely unusable. Examples I can think of are building that were on the table edge of my deployment zone. Maybe if I have Bodyguard I'd put a guy in the building, but for the most part I'm moving away from the deployment zone and that piece of terrain will never be in between my models and my opponent's. Effectively making it non-functional scenery, which seems a waste, especially when the middle of the board is almost an open field.

[Sharp_GT]

One of my favorite boards to play is a western town that our local henchman built. It features some buildings across one side, a hill with a church in the corner, and a big gallows in the center. These things break up the terrain plenty, allowing for lots of safe alleys to avoid gunfire and hide from LOS. On the more open side there's a bunch of fences for soft cover, crates and wagons for hard cover, and some low walls. It creates a very balanced feel, along the lines of the three lanes style maps from league of legends type games. The only thing missing would be some severe and/or hazardous terrain.

I really feel that's the sort of mix of terrain that balances out a board.

[Phototoxin]

Any chance of pics of good table setups?

In the latest chronicles (aug 15) the batrep tables seemed pretty minimal

[Omenbringer]

Definitely agree that the layout is very sparse, it doesn't even look like the minimum recommended amount from the Rule books. Looks more like a typical Warmachine board. It also reminds me of the official Malifaux boards I saw the last time I went to GenCon a few years ago.

 

is an example of what I would typically use.

[Paddywhack]

I was thinking the very same thing! The table in the battle report needed much more scatter terrain - crates, boxes, carts, bushes, fences, etc.. That would have helped greatly with those wide open alleys and firing lanes. 

 

I liked the battle report though overall. Would like to see more with more pictures or diagrams though.

[Torhment]

As a new player pictures or diagrams of layouts that promote good game play would be appreciated. There are a lot of great looking boards in the terrain forum but after reading this post I am going to have to go back and look at some of the board layouts again.

 

RL

[Rekthaur]

Adding into the post. The terrain distribution should be very assymetrical if you can withouth being extreme. Otherwise you would diminish or entirely remove the advantadge of deciding where to deploy, making deploying second the best move no matter what.

[amanwing]

Is this still valid? If I remember right in the new starter set rulebook they say 50%-75% terrain.

[Math Mathonwy]

29 minutes ago, amanwing said:

Is this still valid? If I remember right in the new starter set rulebook they say 50%-75% terrain.

Yeah, this isn't very up to date anymore. And even when this one was, I preferred the other stickied terrain thread (why there are two stickies saying essentially the same thing, I'll never know):

 

[Omenbringer]

@Math Mathonwy Do you think it is worth including a link to the tournament tables I used for my last event as a visual representation of terrain density? Those tables were around 50-75% and all included multiple terrain types.

[Tris]

Such a good idea and just important type of thread, thank you very much

[Dr. Mao]

okay part of the reasons why Lilith is "OP" is because every board is gonna be her home ground, and all terrain will never hinder her actions:)