Crooligans more powerful than Snowstorm.

[sterling319]

So I just fielded Rasputina and lost to the Crooligans. Not to Molly, who was the enemy leader, but to the Crooligans. Because they did what it was deemed unfair for Snowstorm to do. Gave everything in their list, literally, a 24" wide area, of soft cover. For sixteen soulstones, they literally cover the entire board, widthwise, with soft cover. A 4ss model, requiring an 8 to cast. A negative flip for every ranged attack on the board. But Snowstorm can't possibly have it within two inches of him. That is ridiculous.

[edonil]

I can get why it would be frustrating, but this is an issue with the Crooligans, not Snowstorm. Snowstorm had it downplayed because of combination with other abilities.

However, that is something interesting, I hadn't realized that could be done and am kinda surprised nothing was said about that possibility in the beta. What else was being done, though? Were you trying to take them out in melee? And did you spend soulstones to get a positive twist to your attack, canceling out the cover?

Not saying this isn't a problem, just wondering if it's so far out of the range of power that tactics can't overcome it.

[Mastershake]

hit them with a sword or something. hell, just have Raspy focus attacks using Ice Mirror for easy LoS and bomb them. They have 4 Wds in their current incarnation. I one-shotted one of the little guys with a Guild Pathfinder by accident because he made the error of standing next to an Guild Autopsy, so I'm really not buying Raspy with her AoE's even begin to care.

Also:

For sixteen soulstones, they literally cover the entire board, widthwise, with soft cover...That is ridiculous.

16ss just for Soft Cover is ridiculous? What game are you playing?

[Clement]

follow up question, what were you doing during your first 3 or 4 activations since it clearly wasn't murdering crooligans.

They don't have any way to chain together their activations, so you knew what he was up to. Especially since I'm guessing it was done turn after turn.

Ironically, Snow Storm would be pretty good at fixing this problem by walking into the fog cloud and gutting the little guy. Even flip and moderate damage will drop them.

[Mister Shine]

Sliiiiight difference: Snowstorm has 10 wounds and Bulletproof 3. You are not removing it through shooting while its in soft cover.

Crooligan is 4 wounds. Focus to drop that then beat it's Df 6, positive to dmg flip from focus still applies, so you should most likely be able to cheat. Severe to kill it on most shooty models.

[Cats Laughing]

With the exception of a total gunline opponent, and even then, focusing or soulstone use can overcome the debuff, most Crooligan users can find much more powerful uses for 8+ cards.

Also, the rules of the spell only cover models within the Aura. You are perfectly capable of shooting past the creeping mist aura at something in the rear and ignore the spell effects if the target is not in the aura. It's not a WarmaHordes cloud effect that blocks line of sight.

As for SnowStorm not having that type of ability. IIRC on SnowStorm it was an always up effect (crooligans need to spend an AP and get an 8+ flip or cheat in an 8+). SnowStorm is also much harder to kill than Crooligans are, so removing the aura would have been more difficult.

EDIT: FWIW, in the 1/21/14 rules, Crooligans went back to being 5 wounds. Still squishy, but not stupidly so.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Cats Laughing

[Fetid Strumpet]

16 SS, 4 activations, so ranged attacks could be taken at any point prior to all them actually getting the mist up, and 2/3 of you hand, assuming you don't top deck an 8 plus. Statistically slightly more than half your flips should fail, so on average 2 cards will need to be cheated. And at least from my perspectuve, I'm not going to spend an ap to cast a spell I'm not going to succeed on.

[Cats Laughing]

follow up question, what were you doing during your first 3 or 4 activations since it clearly wasn't murdering crooligans.

They don't have any way to chain together their activations, so you knew what he was up to. Especially since I'm guessing it was done turn after turn.

The Mist does last until the crooligan's next activation, so if he was able to use it and continue to flip/cheat well, it would never drop.

Still, there are many ways around this tactic and more experience and understanding of the little nuances in the rules should allow the opening poster to overcome this tactic.

@Sterling319, Look into the rules for Focusing and also the rules for using Soulstones to gain a positive flip on attack flips. Both of these rules will help Rasputina and any other gunline overcome the Crooligan Mist tactic. Note that you can also shoot past the aura at models outside the aura without any ill effect. These items combined with the general squishiness of crooligans are why no one is taking this concern that seriously.

[Tuttleboy]

I could see 3 side by side being a pain, but a bit of focused shooting should help with that pain.

[Sybarite]

Focusing is actually often pretty worthwile anyway damage-wise

[Uktena]

Blessed of December and Hoarcat Prides next time. Show the Crooligans how real we keep it in The Cult

[Rathnard]

Focusing is actually often pretty worthwile anyway damage-wise

+1. You really want to start chaining those blasts and in Raspy's case, one severe-damage hit is often going to be better than two weak-damage hits. Especially if you lack the cards/soulstones for her Overpower trigger.

[sterling319]

They had cover during my first couple of activations. Their ability lasts until their next ACTIVATION. And they have From The Shadows. So they were deployed where I could not target them directly. Even so, Ice Mirrored with Rasputina to chain blasts to them. Soulstoned for a positive flip. My opponent cheated his flip high enough that I had a negative flip to damage. Minimal both times. Out of soulstones, Rasputina gets one shot per turn from then on for at least three turns, because that's how many Crooligans he had. Three. And since the rest of my list was predicated on her ice mirroring and my two Silent Ones getting off shots, I got my head handed to me on schemes.

---------- Post added at 02:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:36 AM ----------

Also, it was quite possible for them to change the ability on Snowstorm to give it to all models except himself. But they didn't. They gave a 4ss model the ability to cut in half all shooting attacks against its crew. From the center of the board. With no activations between coverage.

---------- Post added at 02:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:41 AM ----------

Oh, yeah, sorry, they put up that ability in the middle of the board, with no lines of sight to them, on turn 1. And it lasts til the beginning of their next activation. So there is no 3 or 4 activations. It starts active, it stays active. Against ranged-oriented lists, like Rasputina, it is brutally effective.

Also, Ironically, Snowstorm would kill one Crooligan, die thoroughly and easily to a counter charge from almost any melee-capable model, and then the remaining two crooligans would still give Rasputina the finger.

[Sezar]

By reading it, it looks like you were outplayed by your opponent, it was not Crooligan's fault.

Remember that auraa now need LoS to get the effect, and you should have just Focused instead of Soulstoned, at least from your second cast when you had learned SS'ing would not work.

Also, your opponent must have some magic fingers to draw or flip so many 8's for The Mist and still keep so many high Cards to defend his Crooligans so well. I have intensively played Molly around the beta process and I can honestly say I did not succesfully cast that spell more than once or twice per match at the very best, and I have almost always hired at least 2 of them for Molly and Hamelin, and sometimes for other Resser masters too.

Still, even if gunning them down was an issue, melee the Crooligans down, or at least place 1 gamin or any other model to block the LoS of The Mist to another valuable target for Tina to Blast... or just Blast the hell of your own cheap minions standing close to the Crooligans.

And anyway, stating that Crooligans are more powerful than the Snow Storm... well, those 4 Crooligans costed 16ss, so they should have had an impact in the game after all, but still....

[MasterDisaster]

(1) The Mist (Ca 4C / TN: 12C): Until the start of this model's next activation, the

area a4 around this model is considered Ht 3 Soft Cover.

Hmm... This does seem problematic however focusing and SS are one obvious tactics. Hans could be another, if memory serves don't his goggles ignore this sort of thing?

[mythicFOX]

And since the rest of my list was predicated on her ice mirroring and my two Silent Ones getting off shots, I got my head handed to me on schemes.

It seems to me your opponent knew your plan and wrote a list which effectively countered it. Had they taken the same list vs Marcus or Ramos who don't care about attacks it would have been a waste of 16ss.

I'd be interested to hear what the strategy and scheme pool was? What were your lists? What schemes did you both pick?

[Kadeton]

I've never seen a terrain situation where Rasputina would be unable to get LoS and a Focused cast on a model at board centre in turn 1 via Ice Mirror.

If you genuinely couldn't get LoS to any Crooligans, just kill other stuff - the auras have no effect when you target models that aren't within 1" of them.

Once the Crooligans join up with the rest of their forces, who are now clustered together to take advantage of the cover auras, that's when you start throwing Focused Curses into the pack - the Crooligans will just evaporate.