Errata 2022 - Neverborn

[Saviouress]

On 1/10/2022 at 1:31 AM, Sc4rpelli said:

O think killjoy is by far the worst fae. I dont see a reason to bring him with Titania or any other master. Range 2" would make him better and make sense with the model and weapon size.

I mean you can use Killjoy for the upgrade, stick it on Titania. Then teleport into almost melee command the Underbrush into the enemy target and yourself, and enjoy that 4/6/7 damage track when you get the into Thorns trigger ...

 

Aeslin on the other hand, I really don't know why you would bring her ever.

[ShinChan]

On 1/12/2022 at 9:16 AM, Saviouress said:

I mean you can use Killjoy for the upgrade, stick it on Titania. Then teleport into almost melee command the Underbrush into the enemy target and yourself, and enjoy that 4/6/7 damage track when you get the into Thorns trigger ...

 

Aeslin on the other hand, I really don't know why you would bring her ever.

And still, Rexiboy would still be waaaaay better for the same cost. My list of models:

Buffs:

• Killjoy: Stat 6 in the Hooked Chain and Sudden Strike trigger. 2" Melee range.
• Bultungin: I have no idea, but something to increase their durability and unimpeded. Pack Mentality is just wasted ink.
• All the Half Bloods need something.
• Angel Eyes: Cost -1, -1 Wounds. No Witnesses trigger in the rifle.
• Cyclops: Printed tome on the action to create an ice pillar or +2 to their stat.
• Euripides 1: Frozen Vigor. This guy is so underwhelming compared to his second version that there's no reason to take him. One of the reasons is how much more resilient is Euripides 2. Give Frozen Vigor to Euripides 1 and at least you won't chop through half of his life while playing him.
• Iggy: I don't know how/what, but he brings almost nothing to Pandora and he's more of an Arcanist take.
• Razorspine Rattler: They need some love. Either slightly increase their durability, their damage output or give them some minor utility, but right now they're in a spot where the only thing that they're kind of good at is moving.

Nerfs:

• Euripides 2: Hepatomancy is stupidly good. Change it to either look 1 single card or to look 1 card from each fate deck. Other alternatives could be viable, like make it work only in opposed duels.
• BBS: +1 Wd +1 Cost or move the Blood Sacrifice trigger to the tactical action "Black Blood Pustule", so it now has a TN to drop the corpse markers and it limits a little bit more the focus bomb.
• Candy: Corrupted Inocence reduced to 3" aura.

Nor Buffs or Nerfs:

• Mysterious Emissary: Give him a  for each piece of different Severe Terrain the target is in, instead of giving the enemy a  . Also change "Aura of Deception" to something that is actually useful.

[extremor]

10 hours ago, ShinChan said:

• BBS: +1 Wd +1 Cost or move the Blood Sacrifice trigger to the tactical action "Black Blood Pustule", so it now has a TN to drop the corpse markers and it limits a little bit more the focus bomb.
• Candy: Corrupted Inocence reduced to 3" aura.

I agree that these two are mostly seen ook. But are they too strong  in general or just too easy to abuse outside their keywords? 🤷🏻‍♀️ Maybe it helps to increase the cost of ook models by +2 instead of +1…???

[Mindbadger]

10 hours ago, ShinChan said:

• Cyclops: Printed tome on the action to create an ice pillar or +2 to their stat.
• Euripides 1: Frozen Vigor. This guy is so underwhelming compared to his second version that there's no reason to take him. One of the reasons is how much more resilient is Euripides 2. Give Frozen Vigor to Euripides 1 and at least you won't chop through half of his life while playing him.

Nerfs:

• Euripides 2: Hepatomancy is stupidly good. Change it to either look 1 single card or to look 1 card from each fate deck. Other alternatives could be viable, like make it work only in opposed duels.

I would agree with these changes. Euripides 2 feels way stronger than Euripidies 1 , pretty much because of the huge survivability difference and rune tokens being incredibly strong. Rune tokens give much more consistency to both attacking and defending flips, which is compounded by the Old Ways (for both reusing the good cards which you are making sure are on top of your deck and for generating rune tokens) to make it seem that the Savage models are pretty much always flipping well.

 

One other thing in Savage that I would consider changing, would be Thoon's Frozen Trophy trigger. It might be a bit controversial, as it is quite the character defining ability, but it can lead to hugely polarizing moments. If Thoon goes alone on a flank, your opponent has to send at least 2 models to deal with him and they have to be very careful with activation timing or they might both end up being frozen. Had a game where that happened, 2 models near Thoon, 1 activated and then Thoon went and Frozen Trophied the other before it could activate. At the start of the next turn, Thoon went first and Froze the other model. 2 models taken completely out of the game by 2 actions.

 

Yes, it might not be the strongest ability in the game, and there are ways to counter it like mass marker removal, but it is very "feels bad". I didn't feel great about doing it. Your opponent either lets Thoon have free reign on his board side and ignores him, which leaves you with a 9 point schemer with no extra movement abilities, which feels bad for you, or they send a force to deal with him, which can severely upset their plans. And if one or 2 of those models die, he can go right back to slamming folks in ice.

 

He can get it very consistently on his attack too, with intuition, soulstones for suits/positive flips and a stat 6 attack, he will generally get it on the first or if needed, second attack. Ancient Pact giving +1 or +2 to initiative flips helps him get that early bury on the following turn to shut down a side of the board effectively before enemies can activate. And if they do manage to activate first, if they unbury a model, you can just straight up bury it again before it can activate.

 

I would quite like to see it changed a bit, either letting the opponent have a way to get out of it with the model (like having to pass a test, but coming out with slow or something) in exchange for making Thoon a bit better. Outside of his Frozen Trophy, he's not super strong for a 9 point model. His ranged attack has a good stat, but low damage. His melee, outside of the trigger, is fine. His actic pull is situational as is his bonus action, which I rarely get to use. Maybe giving him an additional less conditional bonus action along with a nerf to the Frozen Trophy trigger might be good?

 

Again, I don't think it's the most game breaking ability out there and I doubt it will be changed honestly as on a competitive level, I doubt Thoon is completely wrecking folk, but it subjectively can lead to very unfun moments and game decisions for both players. It is a standout ability that can change games and must always be taken into account.

[SEV]

Don't fix something that ain't broken. Thoon is fine. 

I really don't like the "feel bad argument" to justify nerf (except in the most extreme cases). What feel bad for you, feel really unique for me and ask for your oponent to solve a new type of puzzle. If half the keyword has frozen trophies that would be way to much, but this being a unique ability on a 9ss henchman seems totally fine to me.

Oh yeah and I totally agree that Euri 1 should have frozen vigor.

5 hours ago, extremor said:

Maybe it helps to increase the cost of ook models by +2 instead of +1…???

This is an other topic, but that would skew the game so much... Broad changes are usually not a good idea to answer specific problems.

[extremor]

On 1/19/2022 at 11:50 PM, ShinChan said:

• Iggy: I don't know how/what, but he brings almost nothing to Pandora and he's more of an Arcanist take.
• Razorspine Rattler: They need some love. Either slightly increase their durability, their damage output or give them some minor utility, but right now they're in a spot where the only thing that they're kind of good at is moving.

Thought about these two:

i think Iggy should be changed in combination with carver. They do combo with each other in theory but don’t perform well enough for their cost imho. Some change to make both get a pandora feeling. To me they miss that. 
 

the rattler is all right as it is but gets outshined by cerberus in Marcus and its the old Story of leap being too strong. I would love to see rattler drop to 6ss each. For 7 I allways use Cerberus instead. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Razorspine rattlers can be useful in leylines. I'd say I use them in at least a quarter of leyline pools when playing marcus?

Given how many options he has, that isn't that terrible a rate 😂 I use them more than the bears at least.

[Morgan Vening]

25 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Razorspine rattlers can be useful in leylines. I'd say I use them in at least a quarter of leyline pools when playing marcus?

Given how many options he has, that isn't that terrible a rate 😂 I use them more than the bears at least.

Honestly, just the ability to dump the Upgrades would be a small decent change? Dunno about others, but that's really my only big issue, you put an Upgrade on the snek, it's there for life.

Two ideas...

Slither - When this model is required to discard a card, it may discard an Upgrade instead.

Several off-card uses, and Ambush can be used to do it on-card.

Second Skin - This model may discard an Upgrade to draw a card from it's discard pile of a value no greater than X (was thinking up to twice the SS cost, or a fixed value like 5).

Still only allows the drawing of Weaks, which isn't bad for discard effects, but isn't going to allow you to cheat fate on most things of importance.

[extremor]

@Morgan Vening Tbh thats rarely an issue for me. If the rattler gets an Upgrade at all i very rarely missed an Option to discard it.

BUT since its a chimera Model I also think it deserved adaptive Evolution.

I wonder what will Happen to the rattler since with the Release of Alpha and the Eagles Marcus will get 2 faster, cheaper and more flexibel Models. Ok Rattlers still can drop 2 schememarkers a turn but so can cerberi… i Wonder if i will Play RR at all then. 

[Morgan Vening]

24 minutes ago, extremor said:

Tbh thats rarely an issue for me. If the rattler gets an Upgrade at all i very rarely missed an Option to discard it.

I really like the idea, especially under Marcus2, of putting either wings on them and getting them into far flank position (especially on corner deploy) early, or plates or camo, and then if the opponent ignores them, dump them off to be used elsewhere. 

That I can't do this, means they just sit on my shelf. And they're too pretty to do that. Also, I commissioned a third, and I'd really like to get some use out of it.

[Gheist]

isn't stacking Poison with them for the Scorpius a thing?

i mean i have rarely seen any of these models in any game so far.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Gheist
Dumped what was sitting on my mind in wrong forum thread

[Maniacal_cackle]

28 minutes ago, Gheist said:

Okay because i just finished painting them and apart from being pretty boys:

After the McCabe1 Master Nerf, i feel his best minions, the Ruffians and the Cryptologists deserve a buff.

Ruffians need HTK, HTW, Armor+1, Disguised, or get shielded when they get an upgrade something along those lines otherwise they are without function (and might be even then)

Cryptologists, apart from being in Cadmus Keyword for some... i mean the bonus with the trigger: in Keyword, i get to draw a Card and have another model take an action for a 9 of Mask and otherwise... might give them just Movement 5? And perhaps a trigger or two on the melee? Drain Magic? Hole in the World? something along those lines?     I mean i can't rule out that i am missing something (again) that they are REALLY good at in Keyword. but right now they are Shelf models apart from introduction games for beginners

And i think it wouldn't be terrible to readjust McCabe1 a bit, he lost bite....

Great points but wrong forum.

[Gheist]

17 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Great points but wrong forum.

Gee you are right. I should get more sleep. My bad

[DuBlanck]

21 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Great points but wrong forum.

Any chance a mod can rename the dozen threads to include faction names?

Would make the sidebar infinitely more navigable.

[Gheist]

1 minute ago, DuBlanck said:

Any chance a mod can rename the dozen threads to include faction names?

Would make the sidebar infinitely more navigable.

that's true. But it's still no excuse to just dump whats on top of my head in any post i guess

[Adran]

6 minutes ago, DuBlanck said:

Any chance a mod can rename the dozen threads to include faction names?

Would make the sidebar infinitely more navigable.

Excellent idea -I wish I'd thought of it. I do at least have the power to carry it out...😀

[Morgan Vening]

2 hours ago, Adran said:

Excellent idea -I wish I'd thought of it. I do at least have the power to carry it out...😀

And yet, even when you do, you don't fix the temporal issue with the Arcanist thread.

[74legion]

Regarding upgrades : They are on paper, they are not in the game.

Non-human reflexes are not used. Full functionality is used by minions - And those who do not die immediately are nephilim. Those who don't play with them go ***.

Eldritch magic - " Give to the enemy".... Magical Training we read and everything is clear

Ancient pact - we take two dolls and 2 upgrades minus 10 stones. Or minus 5. Extremely powerful.....

They just don't need what they are. It is safer to leave it for damage prevention and other.

[TeddyBear]

On 19/1/2022 at 23:50, ShinChan said:

 

• Razorspine Rattler: Hanno bisogno di un po' d'amore. O aumentano leggermente la loro durata, il loro danno inflitto o danno loro qualche utilità minore, ma in questo momento si trovano in un punto in cui l'unica cosa in cui sono abbastanza bravi è muoversi.

 

Marcus has so many pieces that I think it's very, very difficult to give to all an optimal role. I find it right to buff those pieces who never see the game (moleman, razorspine) but at the same time those that are too optimal should be nerfed. As I said in another post, I find it really wrong that a leap model with auto-included trigger, can also have deadly parsuit. By reducing the movement capacity of these heavily used pieces, perhaps the Razorspine would have seen more play, even if their characteristics remains improvable.

[ShinChan]

16 hours ago, 74legion said:

Regarding upgrades : They are on paper, they are not in the game.

Non-human reflexes are not used. Full functionality is used by minions - And those who do not die immediately are nephilim. Those who don't play with them go ***.

Eldritch magic - " Give to the enemy".... Magical Training we read and everything is clear

Ancient pact - we take two dolls and 2 upgrades minus 10 stones. Or minus 5. Extremely powerful.....

They just don't need what they are. It is safer to leave it for damage prevention and other.

I do use Ancient Pact a lot, and many people use it too just to make sure that a key model can ignore the Black Joker, so I've seen it a lot into Dreamers, Zoraidas, Titanias and even Pandora (directly on them) and also in many minions. Eldritch Magic could use some slight buff, but having an upgrade that gives you offensive and defensive condition removal is extremely important and impact the master declaration. One of the reasons I never declare Brewmaster into Neverborn is the existence of that upgrade.

3 hours ago, TeddyBear said:

Marcus has so many pieces that I think it's very, very difficult to give to all an optimal role. I find it right to buff those pieces who never see the game (moleman, razorspine) but at the same time those that are too optimal should be nerfed. As I said in another post, I find it really wrong that a leap model with auto-included trigger, can also have deadly parsuit. By reducing the movement capacity of these heavily used pieces, perhaps the Razorspine would have seen more play, even if their characteristics remains improvable.

I (partially)agree on that! Cat could (and maybe should) lose Deadly Pursuit. But I don't think that would make Razorspine more playable, because they're just bad models not worth 7ss. People will just gravitate to other models that are just plain better in most situations, even if they have to fish OOK for that.

[Mindbadger]

17 hours ago, 74legion said:

Regarding upgrades : They are on paper, they are not in the game.

Non-human reflexes are not used. Full functionality is used by minions - And those who do not die immediately are nephilim. Those who don't play with them go ***.

Eldritch magic - " Give to the enemy".... Magical Training we read and everything is clear

Ancient pact - we take two dolls and 2 upgrades minus 10 stones. Or minus 5. Extremely powerful.....

They just don't need what they are. It is safer to leave it for damage prevention and other.

I've taken Inhuman Reflexes on Geryon in the Savage keyword and got a lot of mileage out of it.

It can add an extra ping of damage to a charge which is always nice, and if things every end up in a ruck around strat markers, you can get that damage on multiple models.

The ability to charge while engaged helps you get that extra damage but also lets you set enemies back to your Extended Reach distance, so that they are still engaged by the Geryon but can't attack. Same thing with the Scamper. The upgrade essentially lets you become even more of an annoying tar pit while dishing out big hits and can lead to a lot of wasted AP for opponents.

I will say that I don't see it being as good on less tanky minions, Geryon are probably the ideal target for it.

When I remember about it being equiped to my models, Ancient Pact feels good, card draw is always nice, same with bonus initiative, the ignoring of black is a nice safety net, but doesn't come up most of the time. It is a nice "Ah ha!" moment when it does though.

I haven't actually used Eldritch Magic, but partly because I don't come up against heavy condition crews. It doesn't seem as generically useful as the other upgrades, more of a tech pick.

I wouldn't say that we have the most powerful upgrades, other factions definitely have stronger ones, but they seem ok. Nothing wild, but ok.

[SEV]

33 minutes ago, Mindbadger said:

When I remember about it being equiped to my models, Ancient Pact feels good, card draw is always nice, same with bonus initiative, the ignoring of black is a nice safety net, but doesn't come up most of the time. It is a nice "Ah ha!" moment when it does though.

What make AP over the top is Ill omen +1... with 2 AP your likelyhood of winning initiative is high wich is a premium for a lot of beatdown crew. 

If you put AP on model that flip a lot of cards (like Hina or A kitty), you're most likely to get some mileage out of avoid doom. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Yeah, I rate ancient pact as one of the best upgrades in the game xD

I'd trade it for the Whisper easily.

[Regelridderen]

On 1/19/2022 at 11:50 PM, ShinChan said:

• Mysterious Emissary: Give him a  for each piece of different Severe Terrain the target is in, instead of giving the enemy a  . Also change "Aura of Deception" to something that is actually useful.

That is a gargantuan nerf. 

A +flip is merely ‘nice’, but at best you’re still leaving things to chance. At worst you end up flipping both jokers.

A -flip on the other hand, not only ups the chance of an opponent flipping weak cards, but also denies them their shot at cheating, meaning you’re in a good position to cheat for suits and/or damage. The few models that hand out -flips on Df or Wp are ultra rare, and are all dependent on other models to make use of it - except for Ol’ Treeface. 

[Rabbitknight]

A Thought I had about the Killjoy issue:
What about reworking the Ritual Upgrade so that the model gains a special attack that if that attack kills a model (friendly or enemy) it replaces the target model into Killjoy, then possibly restricting the upgrade so that it can only be carried by minions or enforcers depending on what the attack ends up being.

It takes away the "tax" on Killjoy and still encourages your opponent to kill Ritual holders, makes taking Killjoy a benefit to your crew rather than just a drain, and can be fine tuned with Range, Stat, damage track, and required suits if need be.