Which would be your top Bayou models that you'd address in an upcoming errata?

[wizuriel]

11 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

2" melee ranges do a lot for Tri-Chi controlling the table preventing interact actions. How about we simplify it even more.

Luchadores: This model may declare the Toss In The Mudd action instead of a Action during a charge.

I would make it more generally so it can be used for future models.

 

Improvised Attacks: this model change actions may generate non  actions instead of  actions

[Math Mathonwy]

I like the idea! I'm not 100% sure that it would be enough to make them competitively viable but it would be a great step forward at the very least. And it fits them well.

[ShinChan]

15 hours ago, wizuriel said:

I would make it more generally so it can be used for future models.

 

Improvised Attacks: this model change actions may generate non  actions instead of  actions

I also like the idea, but it should be "Attack Actions" and not any action. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

8 hours ago, ShinChan said:

I also like the idea, but it should be "Attack Actions" and not any action. 

Lol, without this change, it'd be so broken.

"My charge generates a charge!"

"What do you do with this second charge?"

"I charge!!"

[Maniacal_cackle]

Incidentally, EVERY model with the Toss in the Mud action is considered average at best, I believe?

It'd be a good candidate for a tweak (make it melee 2 or even melee 1 so everyone can charge with it?).

I know cards make bulk erratas hard, but the common names for these things mean that sometimes you have to errata lots of things at once.

It feels like an oversight that they never printed the melee symbol on it in the first place (like Pride with the 0" attack that had to be errata-ed).

It would be frustrating if this whole issue is a typo like Pride was!

[Math Mathonwy]

So to try and sum-up, the most in need of adjusting seem to be

Keywords: Wizz-Bang, Tri-Chi

Models: Wong, Lightning Bugs, Wrastlers, McTavish, LaCroix Raiders, Burt

Maybe: Banjonistas

Downgrades: Rami, Bokor

Does that sound about accurate? Did I miss any? I didn't include every model mentioned but more the ones that seemed to have something of a consensus behind them.

[wizuriel]

Why nerf the bokor? I find they are a good model taken frequently ook; but mainly because they are a good healer and bayou likes to self harm a lot. 

Nerf them and imo people would just change to something like spit hogs.

Whiskey golem is unfortunately probably more in need of a nerf.

 

Would add Moon Shinobi to the buff list. Imo they are very over shadowed by fermented River monks

 

[ShinChan]

28 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

Why nerf the bokor? I find they are a good model taken frequently ook; but mainly because they are a good healer and bayou likes to self harm a lot. 

Nerf them and imo people would just change to something like spit hogs.

Whiskey golem is unfortunately probably more in need of a nerf.

 

Would add Moon Shinobi to the buff list. Imo they are very over shadowed by fermented River monks

 

Bokors are a bargain. They do too much for their cost, the healing is not the problem is their card draw that is insane.

The nerf could be as simple as make "Deja Vu" only once per activation.

Whiskey Golem is totally fine, but Moon Shinobis should definitely go in that "maybe" at least.

[Edek]

In no way is Whiskey Golem in need of a nerf Without reliable card draw his dmg output is ok at best and he is mostly a mobile tank. Moon Shinobi surely deserve a place in the 'maybe' category.

[SEV]

Bokor can potentially discard 3 and draw 6 in one activation! This is insane cards selection for a 6 stone models and it's not that hard to do because of glowy... You do that while healing yourself and your team. Than put a shield on everyone. Repeat that until you need a clutch obey to score/denied...

This is an other game than Spit Hog (and the later is a good model as well).

[Rosskov]

3 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

So to try and sum-up, the most in need of adjusting seem to be

Keywords: Wizz-Bang, Tri-Chi

Models: Wong, Lightning Bugs, Wrastlers, McTavish, LaCroix Raiders, Burt

Maybe: Banjonistas

Downgrades: Rami, Bokor

Does that sound about accurate? Did I miss any? I didn't include every model mentioned but more the ones that seemed to have something of a consensus behind them.

I would say kin generally need a slight tone down. Something like making flinch once per activation. 

 

I don't think they are as, arguably, overpowered as some key words (cough colette, yan lo, dreamer) but I think they are enough ahead of the curve to require a slight balancing. 

 

There's currently a lot of negativity around the kin from a few very vocal members of the UK meta. While I disagree that they are broken, as some have suggested, I do think they are a little too good. 

[Thatguy]

On 2/16/2021 at 10:29 AM, Rosskov said:

There's currently a lot of negativity around the kin from a few very vocal members of the UK meta.

Just played a game last night with Kin versus @touchdown 's Levi and got my teeth kicked in. Lol

Personally I think they're in a good spot. Flinch and Bigger they Are means that most of the crew has better than average stats and something like armor 1, but both can shut off at inopportune moments. If I had to pick something to be nerfed it would choose Sammy's card draw before anything else. 

 

 

 

[touchdown]

There was nothing in your crew I felt like I couldn't deal with or seemed game breaking, but I was playing Levi who is considered S tier.

Flinch seems fine, if you removed it and gave all the models armor +1, I don't think anyone would read the cards and think that's broken.

I guess to beat another drum, comparing Francois to Taelor makes me sad.

Regarding Sammy, I will say the utility there is probably too good for 7 stones. Crazy good card draw and amazing triggers you don't need stones or cards for. There were probably a few times it would have been in my interest *not* to declare the unmade trigger. I killed your Bokor pretty early and basically only because it was the only target for Levi after he was buried but looking at your crew again that probably saved me from your draw engine really coming online with the ability to heal up.

My bokor hot take is I think they're fine. They're very good but also they have 6 wounds and no defensive tech. Just kill them.

[Thatguy]

8 hours ago, touchdown said:

My bokor hot take is I think they're fine. They're very good but also they have 6 wounds and no defensive tech. Just kill them

Yeah part of that was my fault. I think I focused too much on Levi as the guy who eats 6 wound models in melee, but forgot his gun isn't that bad and left the Bokor out in the open without cover or concealment. 

[Rosskov]

I've generally found Sammy OK. I think it's the bokor Sammy interaction that gives rise to a lot of grief. 

[ShinChan]

7 hours ago, Rosskov said:

I've generally found Sammy OK. I think it's the bokor Sammy interaction that gives rise to a lot of grief. 

Totally agree, but still, she really bring a lot for 7ss, so I would cut her mobility down to 5 (I don't see a reason why she should be able to run 18" a turn).

[Thatguy]

7 hours ago, Rosskov said:

I've generally found Sammy OK. I think it's the bokor Sammy interaction that gives rise to a lot of grief. 

I think the Bokor makes it a little worse but really I think Sammy would be almost as bad with any good healing model. Spit Hog misses out on Deja Vu, but also doesn't need to be fed 7s to hit healing TN.  I think a lot of it is having 3 1ss models in crew with lots of AP to spend slapping Sammy around. Like I don't think many people complain that Sammy is OP in Wiz-Bang. 

[RisingPhoenix]

How can everyone be ignoring the elephant in the room when it comes to OP crews?
Kin is pretty good, but next to So'mer?  Constant source of card draw?  Damage without defense flips?  An out-of-activation machine gun powered off dead Bayou Gremlins?  The entire card that is Good ol' Boys (and they're summonable)

They could start by fixing everything.  Rami is a great 6 cost model with a stat 6 2/3/5 gun that's comparable to Hans, an 8 stone model.  Georgy and Olaf are a Df 7/Wp 7 model that gets a stat 7 2/4/5 gun that frequently fires 4-6 times a round.  They have Mv 6 insignificant flying models that can still take interact actions!  And it can just summon more! 

It's basically a crew made up of 100% pure brokenness.  The closest thing to a fair model is the Banjonistas, which are just a summon that can move a huge section of the crew forward 2" and hand out Shielded +2.  Oh no it shifts the entire bubble forward 2" every activation and it only took a 9 to get one.

If they hadn't just released Cadmus, Big Hat would be a serious contender in the ring of "best keyword in Malifaux". 

[MrPieChee]

How has big hat done in the vassal leagues? I haven't seen many complaints that they are op. Seen talk of banjo's and cranky needing a buff though.

[Thatguy]

7 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

It's basically a crew made up of 100% pure brokenness. 

I play a lot of Big Hat. I don't think they're broken. They're definitely above the curve when they are allowed to play on their terms but they have lots and lots of counters.

Short list:

-Anything that generates utility from corpses

-Anything that generates utility from killing models

-Anything that generates blasts or pulses

-Anthing that ignores engagement or has mobility tricks

-Mobile beaters that can take out linchpin models

-Long range sniper models that can remove lynchpin models at range

-Anthing, including schemes and strategies, that can force the crew to spread outside its bubble

-Good anti-summon tech

If your crew doesn't have some of the stuff on this list, you'll probably have a rough time. 

 

 

 

 

 

[RisingPhoenix]

Uh huh.

Well, my mistake for trying to have a serious discussion in a cheerleader forum.

Making me kinda want to switch to Gremlins here like Jamie did, apparently a bunch of Gremlin players really don't have any idea what they're doing, makes the faction even easier to win with.

[Maniacal_cackle]

24 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Uh huh.

Well, my mistake for trying to have a serious discussion in a cheerleader forum.

Making me kinda want to switch to Gremlins here like Jamie did, apparently a bunch of Gremlin players really don't have any idea what they're doing, makes the faction even easier to win with.

xD bit rude to just claim everyone has no idea what they're talking about/how to play the game, but if you really think Som'er is that strong, soloing him for the Vassal series and winning the series with him would probably secure a nerf for him.

[Thatguy]

1 hour ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Making me kinda want to switch to Gremlins here like Jamie did, apparently a bunch of Gremlin players really don't have any idea what they're doing, makes the faction even easier to win with.

You're welcome to join us. I think you'll be surprised at the number of hard match ups Big Hat has.

If I had to pick a Bayou crew that I think is strong and underutilized I think I'd start with Sooey.  Lots of healing, really strong support abilities, fast hard hitting models, easy ways to share AP, and multiple models that summon one of the best scheme runners in the game. 

[GrumpyGrandpa]

On 3/13/2021 at 9:03 AM, RisingPhoenix said:

How can everyone be ignoring the elephant in the room when it comes to OP crews?
Kin is pretty good, but next to So'mer?  Constant source of card draw?  Damage without defense flips?  An out-of-activation machine gun powered off dead Bayou Gremlins?  The entire card that is Good ol' Boys (and they're summonable)

They could start by fixing everything.  Rami is a great 6 cost model with a stat 6 2/3/5 gun that's comparable to Hans, an 8 stone model.  Georgy and Olaf are a Df 7/Wp 7 model that gets a stat 7 2/4/5 gun that frequently fires 4-6 times a round.  They have Mv 6 insignificant flying models that can still take interact actions!  And it can just summon more! 

It's basically a crew made up of 100% pure brokenness.  The closest thing to a fair model is the Banjonistas, which are just a summon that can move a huge section of the crew forward 2" and hand out Shielded +2.  Oh no it shifts the entire bubble forward 2" every activation and it only took a 9 to get one.

If they hadn't just released Cadmus, Big Hat would be a serious contender in the ring of "best keyword in Malifaux". 

I believe that Big Hat is a top-contender in Bayou, and a good overall Keyword in Malifaux M3E. But you're clearly skipping a lot of steps in this post. 

We can start by mentioning that Rami isn't Big Hat keyword.

Georgy and Olaf rarely makes more than 3 hits every turn - 6 hits? What perfect world is that happening in? I can see the "Som'er summons 3-bayou gremlins that you blow up and then GaO shoots"-combo, but that often, every turn? Nope. And he isn't shoot 7 for most of those shots (stat 6 if within Lenny, true)

Skeeters require a Gremlin Crier to make that action. It'll cost you a 9 to do so. A fair price, if you ask me. My opponents tend to kill skeeters that run in - They're 3 HP models with no defensive abillities other than DF 6. I've seen harder targets to kill.

You're clearly living in a world where everything is perfect, and the opponent basically just skips their turns, and allows you to do whatever you want. Don't get me wrong, I also believe that Big Hat is strong, but it isn't "basically a crew made up of 100% pure brokenness". 

Also
 

On 3/14/2021 at 4:18 AM, RisingPhoenix said:

Uh huh.

Well, my mistake for trying to have a serious discussion in a cheerleader forum.

Making me kinda want to switch to Gremlins here like Jamie did, apparently a bunch of Gremlin players really don't have any idea what they're doing, makes the faction even easier to win with.

This entire comment just shows how biased you are. Discounting every other comment because they don't know what they are doing, and we are basically just cheerleaders for a OP faction? Please. 

People are giving you several examples of counters, but you're discounting them all because they don't fit your worldview.

[RisingPhoenix]

*sigh*

I'm not quite sure where to start.  I was referencing Remi as something people are saying might be too good (he is, he's going to 7 stones, and he'll be fine at 7).  Georgy and Olaf on the other hand, most certainly can pick up 6 shots if they want to shockwave down the Bayou Gremlins.  And if they don't, that can pick up a penalty too.  It's certainly minimum 4, or they can't even kill two friggin models a turn.  You're not beating Big Hat if you are killing one model a turn, they're a summoner crew!  Sure, he's only stat 6 for some of them.  Yay.

Skeeters require a Gremlin Crier to make that action. It'll cost you a 9 to do so.

Or a 7 (because it's a 7).  Big Hat always has a 7 even if you miss the flip. 

You're clearly living in a world where everything is perfect, and the opponent basically just skips their turns, and allows you to do whatever you want.

You clearly haven't seen the sort of shenanigans Big Hat can get up to with awful, awful choices that it inflicts on your opponents.  Mostly because every time you make a good choice you get shot, or have them draw a card, or get shot, then they spawn another Bayou Gremlin, which runs forward, blows up for 2 undefendable damage and draws you a card... It's not that it's a perfect world, it's that you're trying to explain that the "perfect world" is one where 4 Big Hat models died this round.  You're right!  Maybe some rounds the opponent can't kill any Big Hat models, then the damage potential is much lower...

The problem with Big Hat isn't that they work great in a perfect world.  It's that in an imperfect world where their own models are getting killed, they're constantly being attacked, and huge models are charging into the middle of their bubble... they draw tons of cards, take tons of shots, and kill the models in the middle.  They're a bubble crew that can literally just reach outside the bubble to drop scheme markers at will, draw literal shittons of cards, and dump some truly frustrating strategems at the opponent. 

You think they're one of those bubble crews that is fragile.  They're the exact opposite.  They're a bubble crew which is insanely resilient, an engine that runs on the opponent killing parts and thrives on the opponent not killing parts. 

Watch it being played by a master.  They are the worst.  They might be worse than Dreamer. 

Y'know, I hate Vassal, but you've motivated me.  I'm going to put in the reps, and put Big Hat on the map.  I'm not gonna let Jamie snicker away with his OP crews while people around here talk about Brewmaster and Ulix.