Graves

[OracleToronto]

I have just started fielding Lynch and I have really been enjoying it - there is one thematic keyword model I just can't seem to justify bringing and that's Mr Graves.

 

For 8 stones I find him oddly too fragile at 8 wounds with Hard to kill and df/wp 5. Black blood can be a bit of a deterrent but his ability to grant other models within 3" cover can cause a crew that already sticks close together to bubble up even more making his Black Blood a risk to your own models (not even mentioning shockwaves or blasts).

Offensively a 2" Stat 6 3/4/5 with puncture or injury triggers is solid but hardly awe inspiring compared to any of the other available beaters in Thunders. It is nice to have Ruthless built in if facing a lot of terrifying or manipulative. 

His "lead the way"  is a decent movement ability but I really think it should have been his bonus action as it slows him down to use it and Honeypot doesn't really lack movement tricks. 

Lastly his bonus action that makes people take WP tests if they want to charge within 6" is situational at best (or maybe I have just not had good luck with it)

 

Now all this being said I have only brought him twice but I have found he requires babysitting and assistance to get the job done which just doesn't seem right for one of Malifaux's most infamous bodyguards. How are other people finding him? I don't see him in many lists on here but if anyone has found a great way to get milage out of him I would love to hear it.  

[LeperColony]

2 hours ago, OracleToronto said:

Now all this being said I have only brought him twice but I have found he requires babysitting and assistance to get the job done which just doesn't seem right for one of Malifaux's most infamous bodyguards. How are other people finding him? I don't see him in many lists on here but if anyone has found a great way to get milage out of him I would love to hear it.  

I have to qualify my opinion by saying I've never played him (or Lynch), so this is just off viewing the card.

To me, he seems decent for eight stones.  2" engage is nice, the ability to move models and give Brilliance is ok, and his   I quite like.  It also appears to combo well with Tanner's.  

5/5 and 8 health for eight stones does seem subpar, but Hard to Kill is really nice, especially if you bring in some heals.  Black Blood and Bodyguard are a bit unfortunate to have on one model.

Is he worth eight?  Eh, maybe.  But is it worth eight to buy him when you could get Fuhatsu or a Samurai for nine, Emissary for 10, Yasunori for 11?  That seems unclear to me. 

If I were facing Ressers or Neverborn, I think Ruthless would push him over the edge.  But against the other factions?  Probably would rather spend a few more stones for one of the other options.

[Jinn]

2 hours ago, LeperColony said:

But is it worth eight to buy him when you could get Fuhatsu or a Samurai for nine, Emissary for 10, Yasunori for 11?

Who in their right mind is still hiring the Yasunori?

 

On topic, I think Graves' closest comparison is to the Lone Swordsman, and in my opinion he is completely outclassed. Offensively, The Lone Swordsman has a Rg 1", 3/5/6 damage (with Adaptive) with the possibility of going up to 4/6/7 with a ram and the versatility of giving slow, attacking multiple models, or generating pass tokens. He can also get to attack and damage and generate stones using Last Breath. Graves' only real advantages in this department are a 2" engagement range and Rig the Deck +2; this leaves him as a significantly worse beater overall. Defensively, The Lone Swordsman has equal wounds, also has Hard to Kill, has higher willpower and has Armor +1 on top of that. Mr. Graves' only real edge defensively is Black Blood (and +1 Sz I guess).

On top of all that, The Lone Swordsman has Creep Along, so he is often close to 50% faster than Graves.

Graves only strict advantage is in moving other models with Lead the Way, which ought to be very useful in a Lynch crew. Unfortunately Lead the Way is rather clunky to use in my opinion. It not having a and it having a low stat make it inefficient from a resource perspective to begin with, but it being only once per turn, a 4" push, and Graves being a 40mm all make it both very hard to grab enemies to send them towards your auras, and also very annoying to move allies up because they will inevitably be directly in Graves' way after being moved up.

 

I think Mr. Graves could really use a buff that makes him excel at a specific role; either make him much hardier and rework Keeping the Peace to make him a proper tank (6 of discard a card to target other models than Graves would be cool), or improve/change Lead the Way into something that can efficiently move allies and enemies where they need to go. 

[FrostHunter]

Graves Bodyguard and Keeping the Peacewhich would be awesome in this bubble crew (Lynch, Tannen, Gwyneth/Beckoner and Graves create field of 6 auras, if not 7 counting Trump Cards) is mitigated by his black blood and thanks to it requires too much positioning in relatively slow crew (applying all auras effects might be as timeating as simple activation, but hey dear Wyrd, do not touch our auras in other way then buffs or add more of them, hahaha). The only thing that makes me think about hiring Graves is his min3 damage and possibility of puncture trigger with Ruthless against Pandora, Teddy (very problematic model for me) or other Terryfing models/crews.

Might be interesting to play him into the crew with many HtK models as we have very nice healers in TT, so it will be very difficult to bring them down.

[Necrokamo]

The ol' good Mr. Graves needs a little tinkering to keep up with the rest of the Honeypot's staff.  Perhaps it would be a good option to give him Juggernaut (to increase his duration in the field) or some Action that allows him to use Brillance to improve his Duel ().

[goth]

8 hours ago, Necrokamo said:

The ol' good Mr. Graves needs a little tinkering to keep up with the rest of the Honeypot's staff.  Perhaps it would be a good option to give him Juggernaut (to increase his duration in the field) or some Action that allows him to use Brillance to improve his Duel ().

He needs to get killed off in the fluff so he can be an incorporeal bruiser

[Jesy Blue]

I thought he died in the climb to see Rasputina waaaaaay back.  Or was that the Original that the Mimic replaced?

[Da Git]

1 hour ago, Jesy Blue said:

I thought he died in the climb to see Rasputina waaaaaay back.  Or was that the Original that the Mimic replaced?

Are you thinking of Joss? When she froze and shattered his arm?

[Jesy Blue]

Same story, but he fell off the mountain.

[santaclaws01]

6 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

I thought he died in the climb to see Rasputina waaaaaay back.  Or was that the Original that the Mimic replaced?

That was probably just the body that the current Mr. Graves is copying off of. Although I don't think it's ever been confirmed that they're the same "person".

[FrostHunter]

Well, probably one of the simplest way to give him (big?) buff would be exchanging his black blood into black brilliance - he would spread brilliance and outside Honeypot keyword would still deal 1 ping damage. Also it's a little shame that he lost attack trigger for his pushing, maybe changing Lead the way from stat 5/tn11 vs df to stat 5/tn11 vs mv or stat3/tn9 vs Sz as Graves throws somebody out of the window?

[Jesy Blue]

6 hours ago, FrostHunter said:

Well, probably one of the simplest way to give him (big?) buff would be exchanging his black blood into black brilliance - he would spread brilliance and outside Honeypot keyword would still deal 1 ping damage. Also it's a little shame that he lost attack trigger for his pushing, maybe changing Lead the way from stat 5/tn11 vs df to stat 5/tn11 vs mv or stat3/tn9 vs Sz as Graves throws somebody out of the window?

Seeing as him and Tannen are no longer Mimic/Neverborn schills, having Black Blood doesn't help anyone.  Brilliant Blood would prefect because it helps you regardless if it's on your models or enemy models!

[OracleToronto]

I personally feel like to keep the concept of a massive mountain of a man who protects Lynch he should have "take the hit" and either hard to wound or a few more wounds. 8 wounds does not feel right IMO

[Cursed25]

the idea of brilliant blood is a sound one! Also like others I would like him to be way tankier than he is now! take the hit would also be really nice on him!

[Reservoir Dog]

I like the idea of brilliant blood. I'd also give him take the hit and I think I'd replace lead the way with toss (same trigger though)

[goth]

“Yes the Honeypot has a bouncer... unfortunately he can only handle other man-sized humans, so if you’re really scary it’s on the honor system...”

[solkan]

On 5/21/2020 at 10:48 PM, Jesy Blue said:

Same story, but he fell off the mountain.

I think it's better to assume that the "Mister Graves" who appears in Cold Hearted for all of two paragraphs wasn't a cameo because the story didn't even bother with a description.  

[Wakefield]

So the reason I've been using him is vs Ruthless as tech and cover for Huggy and Lynch. Once Tannen is set up he basically takes the boring conversation to an even higher level. 

You need to flip to make the charge. Flip to attack and spend a card to cheat.

He's an objective denier and gets good durability boosts off Lynch's bonus. Is he amazing? In certain scenarios he's better than Swordsman. He moves squishy Tannen to better position things and can help with a lot of side work. 

He's like Sidir. He's a tech pick in a faction full of good tech picks. Just put him in the right scenario.