GG1 FAQ and Errata: NVB changes

[Regelridderen]

If you play to win, prepare to spend topdollar to follow the meta, it’s what sports enthusiasts do - heck, quite a few do just to collect the newest gear (not unlike miniature hoarders). 

Another thing is, that Malifaux meta changes once a year - at least. Via GGXX, if you want to be competitive, you’ll have to ho with that flow. But nothing is dropping you from playing older editions privately - or even have tournaments.

 

 

[Mycellanious]

6 hours ago, Ogid said:

 

* In fact both of these could had sense, the reasoning in the podcast about how "NVB is very agressive and this will give options to other players" could be some playtesters crying about how hard is to deal with NVB and Wyrd buying it and leaving the whole faction like this fot the next year; or it could also be a Nekima/other model targeted nerf with little thought about how that was going to affect the faction. Also a change with negative consecuences also happened in TT with sensei Yu; his aura nerf prevented the opening where his crew beated the shit out of shenlong to charge him with chi, but also leave the other 6-8SS monks that were rarely picked, specially high river, in a very bad place; the difference is that one only affects one keyword that was being played versatile/OOK heavy anyway, so no real change there.

I think that of everyone who plays Malifaux, Wyrd has the most information. To suggest that changes were made on a whim because of a few people "crying" or personal vendettas I think is pure speculation. Don't forget that they have all the data from games played on the app now (if people have turned on that feature)

[Ezuma]

I'm not convinced Neverborn is dead just yet from two changes, I didn't even use IR in many of my games, but then I also don't play in tournaments and mostly use Dreamer, Pandora and Euripides. Euripides will be a bit unhappy for sure but perhaps I just have to learn to play more cautiously with him. 

Unfortunately Nekima is boring, so with or without the upgrade I don't play her much, Marcus just seemed sub-par to begin with so I don't know that this change alone does him in. Maybe my optimism is just ignorance, but I am going to try to get a few games in before I panic too much. 

[Adran]

6 hours ago, Ogid said:

Oh 100% agree here; don't forget I've been very vocal about how this IR and Charge change aren't well executed and how these are going to affect the faction (I've also liked a lot of things about this GG1, but that's another story). And that of course could have a negative impact on players, we have seen it in this same thread. I don't really understand how a change as drastic as the IR one went ahead with 0 adjustments to the faction. IDK, it could also be a just a last minute change, a change to "fix" some model that backfired hard or maybe in this game there are some kind of "politics" in the playtesters side; I've seen it in other games where the least popular factions get reckt by too harsh nerfs*. We only see the last snapshot.

* In fact both of these could had sense, the reasoning in the podcast about how "NVB is very agressive and this will give options to other players" could be some playtesters crying about how hard is to deal with NVB and Wyrd buying it and leaving the whole faction like this fot the next year; or it could also be a Nekima/other model targeted nerf with little thought about how that was going to affect the faction. Also a change with negative consecuences also happened in TT with sensei Yu; his aura nerf prevented the opening where his crew beated the shit out of shenlong to charge him with chi, but also leave the other 6-8SS monks that were rarely picked, specially high river, in a very bad place; the difference is that one only affects one keyword that was being played versatile/OOK heavy anyway, so no real change there.

But at the end of the day promoting a revolt or going full ape shit is not going to help, neither to the faction nor to send the message I want to send; the way to help is testing the changes and giving honest feedback. Also this for me this is just a game to have fun and relax. So, if I ever found myself in a place where playing make me angry instead of having fun, that wouldn't be worth it for me. If that were the case, then I'd just take a break or do something else (read, videogames, other miniature games...) while I cool down, the new meta settles and we start to see the real impact of these changes; but that's just me.

Speaking as a person who has done some playtesting for wyrd in the past, I think you are truly looking at a worst case scenario. Yes, the whole group of players that playtest could all combine to give wyrd false information (enough to suggest any that the designers generate themselves is false). Malifaux designers in the playtests I have done have all emphasised the importance of playtesting the game. Things might look too strong/weak on paper, but wyrd are more swayed by evidence in the form of battle reports.

I've not really played neverborn in M3, but a change to a generic upgrade should not be viewed as a drastic change. If the upgrade is taken all the time then it is possible that the upgrade is too strong. If 1 ability on that upgrade is the only reason that the upgrade is taken at all, then that might be a problem. If the faction really does suddenly become worthless because you no longer can take butterfly jump on 2 models, then the faction really had a bigger problem that needs resolving, and the butterfly jump was hiding the issue.

(The other upgrade that's probably about as common is Magical training, which would drop hugely in power if it lost Arcane reservoir. But I don't think any game plan that works with a 7 card hand would be a complete fail with a 6 card hand (especially if you had 4 cards of cycling over the game added to those 6 card hands by using the stones not spent on the upgrade on cards).

I see the charge change as how they intended the game to play, and its really just a tightening up on the wording, so it plays how they meant it. So , whilst I read it the other way, I don't feel hugely upset by it.

As a slight aside, the Meta is typically shaken up about twice a year, once with the release of new rules at Gen con, and then again with the release of a new gaining ground document. Errata might shake it up another once or twice (last edition they did 2 errata a year, a main one about January and an emergency one about july that typically only changes a very small number of things).

Otehrwise I agree with your suggestion to play with what we have, and see how much it matters.

[Ogid]

Above I was filling the gaps with posible scenarios explaining the FAQ we got. I don't think the devs have anything personal agains any particular faction, that would be they shooting themselves in the foot; but they aren't omniscient. I've also participated in playtest myself (never for wyrd tho) and while that short of things aren't common by any means, it could happen; but I was rambling back there; that is really a long shot.

The ideal scenario is all this thread is an overreaction and this was a good change... but I still doubt it.

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I've not really played neverborn in M3, but a change to a generic upgrade should not be viewed as a drastic change. If the upgrade is taken all the time then it is possible that the upgrade is too strong. If 1 ability on that upgrade is the only reason that the upgrade is taken at all, then that might be a problem. If the faction really does suddenly become worthless because you no longer can take butterfly jump on 2 models, then the faction really had a bigger problem that needs resolving, and the butterfly jump was hiding the issue.

I see it as a drastic change because it's something that affects every crew I could make in the faction and that has a difficult replacement. If one particular model is nerfed, I may take the next best fit for the role in line, that could weaken a keyword but not everything. But if I now need to defend myself versus let's say a Vicks rushing with any crew, I have little options now in the upgrades; they can kill the model they want. Before I could make 1 or 2 models safer versus that kind of crews.

That's the big problem for me, not the upgrade being mandatory; but the lack of options versus certain crews; our main defensive options now are positioning or take it on the chin and pray the model survive so you can hit back. NVB is a faction with a lot of squishy models and little defensive options, and that's OK; I knew the kind of faction I was choosing. But removing one of the few defensive option in a faction like this one is very noticeable. Maybe adjusting how we play would be enough, but again I doubt it we can go tiptoeing around and still be as competitive as before.

And it also happens that different crews value upgrades differently; for Marcus I know the IR change it's a bigger hit than for Dreamer or Pandora.

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I see the charge change as how they intended the game to play, and its really just a tightening up on the wording, so it plays how they meant it. So , whilst I read it the other way, I don't feel hugely upset by it.

For most crews this isn't relevant at all and from a design point of view is "safer", less posibilities to get weird interactions with uninteded loops; and it's also congruent that both attacks and charges from triggers works the same. So this isn't a bad change by itself.

However the chimera keyword has a strong charge play around triggers that seems designed with the old rule in mind, and that's another hit for Marcus. If he were doing super well, then it'd be fair game; but the poor dude is getting bullied out of the game in NVB lol. At least the master's trigger could had been rewrited to enable triggers from charges, now he has a lot of weird antisinergies in his keyword: He gives upgrades that give triggers, but when he command those beasts they cannot use said triggers; some beast have "adaptive evolution" that let the model discard an upgrade to get a and a suit, now the suit part is wasted when he or Myranda are commanding them and want to use that... powerlevel aside, it's akward.

1 hour ago, Adran said:

As a slight aside, the Meta is typically shaken up about twice a year, once with the release of new rules at Gen con, and then again with the release of a new gaining ground document. Errata might shake it up another once or twice (last edition they did 2 errata a year, a main one about January and an emergency one about july that typically only changes a very small number of things).

This is good to know! half a year is still a long time, but much better than a full year.

But yeah, let's play and see how all is working now. Not all changes are bad, for example the new stitcheds feels good. Less long range guaranteed damage but they are still little powerhouses, even more reliable than before if the player isn't reckless and choose well the targets, one of the main parts that made the model feel unique (Fiendish Gamble) even got kind of buffed; but now they also feel more fair versus some enemy models that before just got owned (which is the kind of change that also Shenlong got; less rock-paper-scissors in the game is good), and thanks to GYL being a wp attack now they also got some utility, self-sustain and synergy with other models.

[74legion]

About PANDORA. I was expecting something positive for her, but she only had her defenses cut. I have to suffer playing for her because I thought that the Nephilim and someone aggressively hurting? And it was not possible to make an upgrade for the Nephilim only, and the rest of the change is reasonable. Stealth on Samurai (shooting with 12 + flip) game does not ruin everything in the BALANCE, and IR on models of our faction breaks the balance?

[Kharnage]

2 minutes ago, 74legion said:

About PANDORA. I was expecting something positive for her, but she only had her defenses cut. I have to suffer playing for her because I thought that the Nephilim and someone aggressively hurting? And it was not possible to make an upgrade for the Nephilim only, and the rest of the change is reasonable. Stealth on Samurai (shooting with 12 + flip) game does not ruin everything in the BALANCE, and IR on models of our faction breaks the balance?

The problem is that Inhuman Reflexes previously as a defense actively interrupts what the foe is doing with no stopping the ability from happening, so it is the most annoying defense to deal with, so it stuck out as "MAN I HATE THIS DEFENSIVE ABILITY" so it got the first swing. 

[Adran]

2 hours ago, 74legion said:

About PANDORA. I was expecting something positive for her, but she only had her defenses cut. 

If you can't find a way to take advantage of out of activation movement, then yes you are right there is nothing positive for Pandora. If, on the other hand, you can enjoy moving auras about the table, then I think that there is something positive. It might not be as good for survival as butterfly jump, but scamper is probably more annoying to the enemy over all if on the right model

[Regelridderen]

2 hours ago, 74legion said:

About PANDORA. I was expecting something positive for her, but she only had her defenses cut. I have to suffer playing for her because I thought that the Nephilim and someone aggressively hurting? And it was not possible to make an upgrade for the Nephilim only, and the rest of the change is reasonable. Stealth on Samurai (shooting with 12 + flip) game does not ruin everything in the BALANCE, and IR on models of our faction breaks the balance?

Defenses cut?  I’d say with her Mood Swings, Dark Thoughts ability and Terrifying 13, she’s pretty well defended. Putting IR on her was just an unnecessary bloat. I wouldn’t say, whether Samurai are gamebreaking, but paying 11 stone (that’s a rider or an Emissary) for an 8 wound minion do demand, that it can have some effect on the game, and it’s not as if its anywhere near unkillable - even if you need to send a melee beater to do so.

The only upgrade I ever consider for Woe is Eldritch Might into condition heavy crews, such as McMourning and Kaeris.

You’ll see, that the positives you were wishing for Pandora are in the nerfs to our opposition.

[dzlier]

On 3/10/2020 at 12:39 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

FWIW, I went and looked at other faction's upgrades and I think it is now safe to say Neverborn have amongst the worst defensive tech via upgrades. So their role as glass cannons has been sealed a bit.

Two of our local Neverborn players swapped to Ressers due to how fragile Neverborn are. So there is some validity to the complaints.

That said, other than Dreamer, Nekima still feels like the scariest Neverborn to face. The best defense is your opponents being too dead to fight back. For ressers, anyway. I can't imagine you pick Nekima against a shooty faction.

I did well with Nekima against Parker, but the board was like a crowded city and aside from almost killing a Young on turn 1, I got in his face with Nekima and a Mature before he had time to shoot them down.

[dzlier]

On 3/11/2020 at 7:35 AM, Regelridderen said:

You know, it’s quite okay for Nekima to use her power of flight to put herself in basecontact with a Corrupt Ley Line marker, and then have someone else pass her the ball. 

Just because you can’t use flight, Back Alleys or Leaps, when carrying the ball, it doesn’t mean these abilities make a model useless. 

I was thinking this. Using a football analogy, some teams (e.g. with lots of Flight) are going to have good passing game (throwing the token to other models) while others are going to have better running game. I just wonder how much the difference is going to be, since a model running the token can take 2 moves, but you can only throw the balltoken 6 inches.

[Maniacal_cackle]

On 3/17/2020 at 12:25 AM, Regelridderen said:

If you play to win, prepare to spend topdollar to follow the meta, it’s what sports enthusiasts do - heck, quite a few do just to collect the newest gear (not unlike miniature hoarders). 

Another thing is, that Malifaux meta changes once a year - at least. Via GGXX, if you want to be competitive, you’ll have to ho with that flow. But nothing is dropping you from playing older editions privately - or even have tournaments.

Updating models for metas inevitably going to be part of the game. It is an inherent problem of this type of game.

However, I think it is important to acknowledge it IS a problem.

The more this is part of the game, the bigger the problem is. And this adds up with every errata, every GG update, etc. It is why I personally advocate for a conservative approach to power level errata.

Many people only play every other week (26 times a year). If you play two crews, that might be 13 times per crew. That is a hell of a cost to be paying for a crew that is expected to go out of date after ~10-20 games.

Granted, you can play suboptimal crews in casual games. But often those casual games are your preparation for a few tournaments a year.

This 'top dollar' approach is what top companies do (Games Workshop, Magic the Gathering, etc).

However, I question whether that is the right approach for a small company. After all, a lot of the target market for alternatives to warhammer are people who don't like playing 'wallethammer.'

There is a fine line between being a business and being overly focused on short-term profits. Player retention does matter.

That said, players like me matter less. I buy 1-2 crews a year currently. The whales are the big spenders... But if players with only a few crews quit, the whales don't have anyone to play against. Every lost player in our local community feels like a massive hit, and it'd be super gutting if someone quit due to an overnerf.

Personally Malifaux is in my top 5 games I've ever played. I'm probably going to continue playing it even with the annoyances of crews going out of date.

But if it becomes too much work to retain players, I'd swap games (or swap to Vassal and stop buying models).

[solkan]

40 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Updating models for metas inevitably going to be part of the game. It is an inherent problem of this type of game.

It isn't an inherent problem with this type of game.  It's an inherent problem with one particular way of approaching this sort of game.

Gaining Grounds is expected to change which models are most useful for strategies and schemes each year.  During M2E, the release of new models changed which models were most useful for each particular scheme and strategy.  "I bought this crew and I expect it to never change in usefulness" is foolish and unrealistic.

And that's before getting into the pragmatic life lessons like "So you bought a model because it was unusually effective, and now it's fixed."

Disclaimer:  A person goes into a casino and gambles their life savings away, while surrounding them are people frittering away their spare change.  Who are you going to blame?

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, solkan said:

It isn't an inherent problem with this type of game.  It's an inherent problem with one particular way of approaching this sort of game.

Gaining Grounds is expected to change which models are most useful for strategies and schemes each year.  During M2E, the release of new models changed which models were most useful for each particular scheme and strategy.  "I bought this crew and I expect it to never change in usefulness" is foolish and unrealistic.

And that's before getting into the pragmatic life lessons like "So you bought a model because it was unusually effective, and now it's fixed."

Disclaimer:  A person goes into a casino and gambles their life savings away, while surrounding them are people frittering away their spare change.  Who are you going to blame?

The gambling example is a bit ironic because it is pretty well documented that gambling addictions are a thing, and casinos know all sorts of tricks to get people to gamble more than they should. There's a whole subfield of psychology dedicated to getting people making stupid decisions on that sort of stuff.

So I'd blame both the casino and the gambler. Both have the power to do something about it.

To your core point, yes, absolutely. If someone hears Shenlong is a powerhouse and goes out and buys the crew, there is a reasonable expectation that the crew is going to take a hit.

For Nekima, I'm not sure there was a clear reason to expect her to get hit.

Yes, there is always going to be some outdating from Gaining Grounds and similar. But when you throw nerfs with colatteral damage in there... People feeling angry about that is fairly justified.

I'd be pretty annoyed if my Molly crew suddenly suffered a significant power hit because Seamus is too strong (for example).

That said, as I've said in previous posts I don't think this change is as 'devastating' as people seem to think it is. But if it IS as bad as people say, frustration is understandable.

No one is saying "I expect this crew to never change in usefulness."

I do think it reasonable to feel "I expect this crew to not be subject to arbitrary and unnecessary power nerfs." Which is the claim I think people are making (again, I personally still think Nekima is scary to face).

I don't have any stake in this (I don't play Neverborn anymore), but I do think the people who do have a stake in it are justified in feeling some grouchiness.

[Regelridderen]

@Maniacal_cackle

I’m pretty confident that Wyrd doesn’t share a design philosophy with GW or MtG, and that their changes are towards making a better, balanced game, rather than hyping certain models. 

However those changes are inevitable, when models hit the table big style. Some will be spot on, some will be a little hit-or-miss, such is the nature of things. 

‘faux has an aspect of ‘wallethammer’. You don’t play a fixed crew or a specific master, you play a faction, and in order to win you have the luxury of tailoring your crew to the circumstances. That luxury however demands an extensive collection. That’s a problem for me, who collect, not because of efficiency, but for models, themes and aestethics. My problem isn’t my wallet, but my subjective notion of cool - e.g. I’d never go into Nephilim as I dislike the models. But it is a choice, a conscious handicap, I’m making, just as it is choice, going into a hobby, you might not be able to afford. 

There is good reason however for Wyrd to concentrate on their ‘heavy users’ to change the game, avoid getting stuck in a rut. Its the heavy users who will introduce new players to the game, those who have the largest collections etc., and they need to be challenged. 

Casual players, like me, who only play once/twice a month then go to a tournament once in a while, just need to stay casual about it. We’re not losing because our models suck and rules change, we’re losing because we’re not playing, or investing ourselves enough in the hobby. 

Balancewise ‘faux is in a good place. And I for one is glad, that Wyrd takes an interest in this and is concerned with the state of the game. Some crews are more versatile/better than others, but all of them are interesting to play (dependent on taste) and all have a decent chance of winning. That’s all I’m asking for. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

@Regelridderen, largely agree!

Wyrd does a pretty good job. I think players are entitled to grumble a bit when they get hit by something a bit 'unreasonable.' But overall, some changes need to happen, and it isn't like Wyrd nerfed half the masters in the game. It was a relatively small number of changes.

[Nagi21]

7 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

@Regelridderen, largely agree!

Wyrd does a pretty good job. I think players are entitled to grumble a bit when they get hit by something a bit 'unreasonable.' But overall, some changes need to happen, and it isn't like Wyrd nerfed half the masters in the game. It was a relatively small number of changes.

Would disagree on that last part.  The NVB changes and FAQ have nerfed over half the faction in some way shape or form.

[Ogid]

On 3/19/2020 at 1:32 AM, Maniacal_cackle said:

I do think it reasonable to feel "I expect this crew to not be subject to arbitrary and unnecessary power nerfs." Which is the claim I think people are making

Pretty much this. (Almost) no one is going to complain when a top dog gets adjusted. I was expecting nerfs for Dreamer taking in count he is THE competitive master of the faction (and again kudos for the concept of the stitcheds nerf/rework), some changes like the first mate or the agent affect some of our crews but were necessary, Zoraida ones wasn't 100% necessary but aren't unreasonable, she is very good as second master and get the totem for free so +1SS is OK and the other are minor adjustments (tho she is losing power GG after GG with the new obey changes and all this new "friendly/enemy-controlled" wording). And I wouldn't have been surprised by some nerfs for Pandora (in one particular obnoxious sweeteness aura) plus some adjustments in Nekima (less damage for some utility/defense); all those targeted changes for powerful models/crews are reasonable.

The IR nerf however is affecting the whole faction, and as stated before, it punish more the non-overperforming masters. That change without adressing how it affects at least the less competitive crews seems careless, which is sad because that may blur all the good things of the GG1 for some NVB players who see their not-overperforming favourite crews nerfed for no reason.

[74legion]

17 hours ago, Adran said:

If you can't find a way to take advantage of out of activation movement, then yes you are right there is nothing positive for Pandora. If, on the other hand, you can enjoy moving auras about the table, then I think that there is something positive. It might not be as good for survival as butterfly jump, but scamper is probably more annoying to the enemy over all if on the right model

the problem is not that I can 't (or can 't) move outside of activation using Pandora's auras . The problem is the auras themselves. Too short. With 8 th aura(fictional) 1) impose stunned (if was able) move on 2 after can do 2ve attacks. With the 6th aura(what is actually there ) I 1) run up (minus the action), 2) stunned (if I can), 3) Attack. The enemy shooter stands still and makes either 2VA shots or a focus shot. Then the 2nd shooter comes up to him and they squeeze me out with fire (or I'm dead).

[74legion]

17 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

Defenses cut?  I’d say with her Mood Swings, Dark Thoughts ability and Terrifying 13, she’s pretty well defended. Putting IR on her was just an unnecessary bloat. I wouldn’t say, whether Samurai are gamebreaking, but paying 11 stone (that’s a rider or an Emissary) for an 8 wound minion do demand, that it can have some effect on the game, and it’s not as if its anywhere near unkillable - even if you need to send a melee beater to do so.

The only upgrade I ever consider for Woe is Eldritch Might into condition heavy crews, such as McMourning and Kaeris.

You’ll see, that the positives you were wishing for Pandora are in the nerfs to our opposition.

Mood swings Work for those who were activated at 6. Yes, surrounded by enemies can help. Or maybe pull a couple of cards out of you . And you can just shoot at Pandora from a distance of 6+. Tarif 13 is the Only thing that is more normal (but it is quite simple to pass a model with 6 WP). Plus models with ruthless. Dark thoughts are less than nothing. 1) Suit 2) distance 3) resistance stunned 4) you want to leave them to attack. There are many masters more thoughtful than Pandora.

[Regelridderen]

@74legion you’re writing as if a model should be impregnable from stats and abilities alone. While most wargames are designed so that offense always has the upper hand - otherwise, nothing would happen during those games. 

Speaking from my experience, it is very hard for opponents to take Pandora down. This involves positioning, getting her in tight with opponents and it involves Pandora and her crew doing their thing and draining opponents of resources - hand and activations.

If you’re just plunking her down at 12” distance and waiting for opponents to shoot her, then sure she is going down, but if you drain their hand, disrupt their activation order and hand out Slow and Stunned like there is no tomorrow, then dora has nothing to fear, she might take a couple of hits, but a couple of hits makes no difference, if they aren’t lethal. 

[Tsinner]

We should have an upgrade called Ours!

Where it ignores terrain penalty

Then gives concealment

And stealth or from the shadows for minions.. Malifaux is our lands we should be able to navigate it the best..and seeing we lack in gun and range options this could help

[Ogid]

4 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

Speaking from my experience, it is very hard for opponents to take Pandora down. This involves positioning, getting her in tight with opponents and it involves Pandora and her crew doing their thing and draining opponents of resources - hand and activations.

I agree she is hard to kill and that she isn't the best IR holder of the faction nor her crew need it as much as others; her bubble is very scary and her conditions really take a toll on the ofense of the other crew. However not only masters take IR and there are scenarios where the lack of that upgrade will be noticeable.

For example, do you remember your game versus Von Schtook? Teddy + Murder Baby with IR went to a flank away from the bubble. I assure you IR played a big role in Kade not getting rushed and killed for an easy student, now in that game you either cannot pick Kade (and Teddy) or are taking a way bigger risk doing so. Or in games where the other players are able to field scary alpha strikers Teddy is also now a way worse option than Hinamatsu or The Carver that may use SS to protect themselves because you could end losing your 12SS Teddy thanks to the defensive tech doing nothing.

5 hours ago, 74legion said:

Dark thoughts are less than nothing. 1) Suit 2) distance 3) resistance stunned 4) you want to leave them to attack. There are many masters more thoughtful than Pandora.

You seem not to like Dark Thoughts... There is a small trick that really help to protect her. She may give herself the mask trigger with Despair's Influence, getting the trigger "built-in" (or a changeling may also use Despair's Influence), the trigger is "After Resolving" so even if she is hit the trigger go off and the best part is you may use Misery to move the foe, avoiding the next mele attack or moving a shooter out of range or LoS (if there is a Misery aura nearby). Using that her defenses skyrockets (and she also get a 3'' push so it really cost her 2'' from a walk action and a card); in addition if she isn't afraid of that model's triggers she may keep removing stunned for a in the defensive flips; and that can even be used more "offensively" damaging it several times if it's in range of a few auras. In a pinch you may consider cheating/stoning for a mask (even if that lowers a bit your defense in the cheating case) to stun and move away the attacker. Hope it helps

There are still a few models able to threat her tho, specially those that are able to stun her without being stunned back or ignore the trigger (like any TT mele beater with Masked Agent or Misaki with her trigger "Omae Wa Mou Shindeiru").

[74legion]

On 3/19/2020 at 8:23 PM, Ogid said:

You seem not to like Dark Thoughts... There is a small trick that really help to protect her. She may give herself the mask trigger with Despair's Influence, getting the trigger "built-in" (or a changeling may also use Despair's Influence), the trigger is "After Resolving" so even if she is hit the trigger go off and the best part is you may use Misery to move the foe, avoiding the next mele attack or moving a shooter out of range or LoS (if there is a Misery aura nearby). Using that her defenses skyrockets (and she also get a 3'' push so it really cost her 2'' from a walk action and a card); in addition if she isn't afraid of that model's triggers she may keep removing stunned for a in the defensive flips; and that can even be used more "offensively" damaging it several times if it's in range of a few auras. In a pinch you may consider cheating/stoning for a mask (even if that lowers a bit your defense in the cheating case) to stun and move away the attacker. Hope it helps

 

On paper, it is very beautifully written, and in the game the enemy will do nasty things 
 from a distance greater than 6.( you can not move / deal damage to the Enemy if it is more than 6 (misery condition) and this effect is only 1 TIME per activation. 
If an enemy is near (6) Pandora, it may NOT activate this model. And mood swings DON't work. A defense that Doesn't work is Very good for the enemy. And then the enemy takes defensive upgrades. And the Neverborns and Pandora get even sadder. And it turns out some with arrows and protection - and we without both.

[Adran]

19 minutes ago, 74legion said:

On paper, it is very beautifully written, and in the game the enemy will do nasty things 
 from a distance greater than 6.( you can not move / deal damage to the Enemy if it is more than 6 (misery condition) and this effect is only 1 TIME per activation. 
If an enemy is near (6) Pandora, it may NOT activate this model. And mood swings DON't work. A defense that Doesn't work is Very good for the enemy. And then the enemy takes defensive upgrades. And the Neverborns and Pandora get even sadder. And it turns out some with arrows and protection - and we without both.

The problem I have with this sort of thing is you focus entirely on the worst circumstance. You seem to ignore the fact that they have had to place in certain positions to counter your defense. If the enemy has to spend actions moving to the right place, then you have already gained from the defense. If they activate in an ideal position to allow them to "live the dream" then either they played well or you played badly. If they didn't and had to spend resources in getting to the place for it to work, the n the defense has still done something. It might be less than you want it to do, but it has stlll done something.

Remember to your opponent you are the enemy and you can do nasty things too. Things like attacking one of their models that is nearer to you, so if they cheat to avoid being hit, you can scamper to outside that ideal range again, either towards or away, which ever is better for you.

If your whole game is 2 lines 7" apart attacking each other, then yes you won't get to use scamper. If that's how you play, don't use it. If you find the battle field is more fluid, you might get use from it. My suggestion is play your normal list without scamper, and then just tally how many  times you could have used it. That gives a better answer than the number of times it happens in a game because as you say your enemy will play to minimise it, and you often don't realise when thjey have done that, so don't see the passive defense it has given you