Ideas for upcoming errata (outcast)

[Ming]

I see that other factions started similar topics. Let's do one of our own.

What models need errata? Either rebalance or clarification?

My 50 cents:

1. Talos - the robot seems to be an outcast in its own crew. Nobody hires it. Aionus was saved at last minute. Let's save the consrtuct, too.

2. Bishop - at first glance he seems to be a good model, but he loses competition to other models of same cost (9 ss) and even cheaper models. So he is a very situational model. He lacks defensive abilities and has few actions for a model with permanent Fast. 0" engagement is a downer, too.

3. Johan - not sure about him. He lost a lot since M2E and became very situational.

4. Viktoria Chambers - I think the only problem with them is lacking any "ignore defense ability" ability. Ronins ignore armor automatically. McMourning has Precise and is a better fighter than Viks.

5. Lazarus - his Grit seems strange, because he has other bonus actions, which are more useful. Usually, when you are low on health, you will prefer Juggernaut. And there are always Assimilate and Equipment actions. Autofire/Rapid Fire would be better.

[ShinChan]

So let's go:

1. Talos: could get some synergy with the Obliteration crew. I use him sometimes, but forces me to bring the Emissary in order to solve his movement issues. Maybe some trigger in "Into the furnace" to make it more appealing? It's an action that I've never do, because most of the time I prefer the Stat 6 of the Void Hammer and its minimum 3 damage, also maybe it's my impression, but Wp is usually higher these days.
2. Johan: He's a beast hitting, but he needs to get there, which is tricky due to not being really durable. He is also the only condition removal that we have, so at least could have the printed , maybe it could have it when targeting friendly models. He could use some triggers too. I would happily sacrifice the minimum 3 damage for nice triggers.

I don't play the others, so I don't have an informed opinion. The Viks look good tho (I've faced them many times), I think that in their case, is more how limited is the pool for the keyword.

On the other hand: Is the Midnight Stalker too good? I haven't played him much, but looks like he is a must in every crew.

[Zebo]

Agree with those. 

1 hour ago, Ming said:

2. Bishop - at first glance he seems to be a good model, but he loses competition to other models of same cost (9 ss) and even cheaper models. So he is a very situational model. He lacks defensive abilities and has few actions for a model with permanent Fast. 0" engagement is a downer, too.

3. Johan - not sure about him. He lost a lot since M2E and became very situational.

4. Viktoria Chambers - I think the only problem with them is lacking any "ignore defense ability" ability. Ronins ignore armor automatically. McMourning has Precise and is a better fighter than Viks.

5. Lazarus - his Grit seems strange, because he has other bonus actions, which are more useful. Usually, when you are low on health, you will prefer Juggernaut. And there are always Assimilate and Equipment actions. Autofire/Rapid Fire would be better.

Not played Tara, cannot speak about Talos.

I would add

6. Freikorps Scout - Most of the players seem to have problems figuring how to play and when to hire them.

7. Desperate Mercenaries - You need too many resources to make a 4ss model suck a bit less. Too situational and not needed nor specially helpful. 

8. Outcast upgrades - Both Hired Soldier and Wanted Criminal are very weak, specially when compared to other faction's upgrades.

9. Grenade Belt - The worst Equipment upgrade, too situational and almost always worse than the actions already printed on the Freikorps.

 

17 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

On the other hand: Is the Midnight Stalker too good? I haven't played him much, but looks like he is a must in every crew.

I don't think so. He's very strong at some schemes, and fulfils some holes in some crews, but really is not a must (I've still not used him in Freikorps, Mercenaries, Bandits nor Amalgam, although I can understand he can be better than some options, and helps crews like Plague and Tormented to be competitive in many games).

[Ming]

45 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

 

1. Johan: He's a beast hitting, but he needs to get there, which is tricky due to not being really durable. He is also the only condition removal that we have, so at least could have the printed , maybe it could have it when targeting friendly models. He could use some triggers too. I would happily sacrifice the minimum 3 damage for nice triggers.

Actually, there are other condition removing models available to us now. Even in Infamous. And that makes Johan even more situational.

[Ming]

18 minutes ago, Zebo said:

6. Freikorps Scout - Most of the players seem to have problems figuring how to play and when to hire them.

7. Desperate Mercenaries - You need too many resources to make a 4ss model suck a bit less. Too situational and not needed nor specially helpful. 

8. Outcast upgrades - Both Hired Soldier and Wanted Criminal are very weak, specially when compared to other faction's upgrades.

9. Grenade Belt - The worst Equipment upgrade, too situational and almost always worse than the actions already printed on the Freikorps.

 

I don't think so. He's very strong at some schemes, and fulfils some holes in some crews, but really is not a must (I've still not used him in Freikorps, Mercenaries, Bandits nor Amalgam, although I can understand he can be better than some options, and helps crews like Plague and Tormented to be competitive in many games).

6. That's strange. It's an overall good model with quite obvious specialty.

8. I actually find Wanted Criminal very good nowdays. Expert Thief is very useful and other abilities are good as well. Try Ronin with Flurry and Fast - you steal up to 4SS per activation! And it's still an Attack you can use with "This counts as mine!". Hired Soldier gives you HtK, which good, too. Also you can gain more resources with it, if it's on a finishing minion. Some other factions' upgrades may be better, for sure.

9. I disagree - it's a good MV shockwave attack + it can remove scheme markers to deny opponents' schemes. Land mines on the other hand were nerfed with new Search the Ruins rules.

Stalker is a good model, but he's always a bit overrated. I like using him in many crews due to his keyword stealing ability. You can give him equipment via Steam Trunk and copy his Leap via Hanna in Freikorps. You can use him with Viks' trigger etc.

[Ming]

Winged Plagues - actually, I've never seen them in play even in M2E and it's still the same now. Too squishy for scheme running. Especially now, when your best scheme runners are Masters and other sturdy models. Also, please give them Nightmare cat models - the guys are too ugly. Maybe that's why they are unpopular)

[ebolazaire]

3 hours ago, Ming said:

Winged Plagues - actually, I've never seen them in play even in M2E and it's still the same now. Too squishy for scheme running. Especially now, when your best scheme runners are Masters and other sturdy models. Also, please give them Nightmare cat models - the guys are too ugly. Maybe that's why they are unpopular)

Still want little pigeons to replace them with.

[farmoar]

4 hours ago, Ming said:

Also, please give them Nightmare cat models

I was holding my breath for the big reveal for Black Friday. I love the rest of the cat theme.

[Jesy Blue]

Viktorias took a nutering storyline wise (lost the Marumasa blade) so their models reflect that; I started with Viks and it kills me, but I understand.

[Zebo]

5 hours ago, Ming said:

6. That's strange. It's an overall good model with quite obvious specialty.

Which is its specialty? They're not good scheme runners, since them have good deployment, but not mobility, and since they cannot interact until turn 2, play isolated from their crew and are not  are not tough, they are quite easily killed by turns 1-2 depending on the opposite crew. They also are not gunners, and I've seen many posts of players complaining about them.

[psychogeek]

As far as upgrades, I think hired soldier is ok. It’s nothing special but great in certain spots. I have used it well in Freikorps on my minions to increase their durability as well as get some extra resources. 
wanted criminal is bad... it is not worth the stones on any but a wokou Raider.

outcast upgrades are meh overall but it’s nice they don’t feel autoinclude *cough* arcanists *cough*

Scout is good, and so is lazarus, but the freikorps crew is a challenge to play in general and neither scream auto take or completely ignore. Just tech pieces. Check out my write up for more info as both have tons of use in the correct use.

grenades are situational true, but clutch there. Don’t discount them and never forget that the marker removal is incredibly strong.

i think the viks crew is fine, as they have some very good strengths and very key weaknesses. 
 

Winged plague need a tiny boost and there has been a lot of chatter about it in the Facebook groups.

 

i suggest pride gets his mele fixed as it doesn’t have he mele symbol and is 0” range

[KID55]

15 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

Viktorias took a nutering storyline wise (lost the Marumasa blade) so their models reflect that; I started with Viks and it kills me, but I understand.

Yes, but they are still Blade Masters, maybe they cannot effectively hit some unnatural stuff (like incorporeal), but they must can effectively hit common defences. I suggest give them on attack. And maybe ignore armor/HtK/shielded.

[ShinChan]

14 minutes ago, KID55 said:

Yes, but they are still Blade Masters, maybe they cannot effectively hit some unnatural stuff (like incorporeal), but they must can effectively hit common defences. I suggest give them on attack. And maybe ignore armor/HtK/shielded.

A to the attack? WTF? They already hit like a truck, and they can easily get 6 attacks in a row with Stat 7 that do 3/4/6 damage. If you're expecting a lot of armor, bring Ronins, against Shielded you have Johan and Taelor.

[LexLock]

It's kind of sad that the Viks are so awful into both Reckoning and Assassinate this edition. The Viks are made of glass and they are way better at scheming than killing, even when people dedicate massive caches and double Soldier for Hire they'll rarely outlast the opponents master and they are so vulnerable to conditions and WP targetting attacks.

Whatever let them stay vulnerable individually, they need to rework their rules so they're not so vulnerable to Reckoning/Assassinate/ whatever killy scheme they come up with next GG.

Make it so if you kill one Vik it only counts as killing half of your leader/master so they aren't barred from their most thematic scheme pools.

Also, for a crew with no card draw or easy access to focus they sure are stingy with the +flips and built in suits, like would it break the game to have Bloody Fate built in on a couple of things?

[Giovanni Canzanella]

So far, I only played Tormented and Bandits, and beside the fact that Outcast upgrade are kind of "meh" (not useless, watch out, but forgettable) the only thing I would correct is the cost of Dead Outlaws, tuning them down to 5.

Even into a Tormented crew, they are not the smartest pick: their low Def makes them such an easy target, and on the top of that, their attack is far from amazing. I still don't understand why they cost 6 (sure, they have Run and Gun, but still doesn't justify the cost.
Low their cost to 5, or raise their Def to 5

[Da Git]

My super duper happy wish-list for Talos is simply giving him the From Nothing Ability. Then he'd be sweet as! I want to love him, but he just doesn't synergise with the crew and has 2 huge glaring problems of being too slow and dying too easily (despite Armour 2)

[LexLock]

30 minutes ago, JellyRoll said:

So far, I only played Tormented and Bandits, and beside the fact that Outcast upgrade are kind of "meh" (not useless, watch out, but forgettable) the only thing I would correct is the cost of Dead Outlaws, tuning them down to 5.

Even into a Tormented crew, they are not the smartest pick: their low Def makes them such an easy target, and on the top of that, their attack is far from amazing. I still don't understand why they cost 6 (sure, they have Run and Gun, but still doesn't justify the cost.
Low their cost to 5, or raise their Def to 5

Dead Outlaws are great when you are using them to give a big thing fast, and their attack triggers are pretty debilitating. Unfortunately for Parker most of his stuff already has fast from Life of Crime, so Outlaws are a better hire out of keyword or in Tormented.

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

On 12/5/2019 at 11:37 AM, Ming said:

Winged Plagues - actually, I've never seen them in play even in M2E and it's still the same now. Too squishy for scheme running.

They're not for scheme running. They're living blight missiles.

[LexLock]

33 minutes ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

They're not for scheme running. They're living blight missiles.

A 4ss model that's bad at scheme running? Winged Plagues are too squishy to be used as missiles or scheme runners and their "payload" is a single blight, not really worth 4ss.

[Micawber]

6 hours ago, KID55 said:

Yes, but they are still Blade Masters, maybe they cannot effectively hit some unnatural stuff (like incorporeal), but they must can effectively hit common defences. I suggest give them on attack. And maybe ignore armor/HtK/shielded.

That would be laughably over the top. Even if Viks had a "ignore armor trigger" even on min dmg it would only do more dmg against armor +2 models and you still have to get that trigger first. In every other case you'd still profit more from just getting in those extra attack with the trigger (that you can equally stone for just like the imaginary ignore armor trigger). I think it was a design choice to encourage players even more to keep them close. For me it's a clear choice of gameplay over fluff and it strengthens the Viks theme.

Additionally if you fight a heavily armoured opponent get a Ronin in there and your Vik practically does ignore armor.

The Viks beeing very squishy for their prefered strategies might be a problem but I have yet to decide. On paper it definitely looks like that but on the table you can often either pick off a spread out opponent or if they bubble up and you jump them end-of turn you're are right in the middle of the action and it actually becomes kinda hard to bring down a Vik between shielded +2, soulstones and the heal on kill that they share with Vanessa. They will have to kill the Viks in one go or risk them healing huge amounts in just one or two (chain)activations.

[LexLock]

Honestly my problem with the Viks is they have no card draw and all of their models really need it.

We haven't really talked about what deserves a nerf in faction but I think Amalgam has a couple of outliers.

Rusty Alice is slightly too good at what she does, it's not as bad as some other models I could mention (cough, Archie, cough) but she could stand to lose a bit of threat range. Lowering her move to 5 is a really minor change that would take away a little bit of her ridiculousness without actually taking away any of her actions or abilities, she wouldn't be able to disengage as easily and she'd have a slightly lower threat range, especially with fast.

Ashes and Dust is simply too good for 9ss, to the point where I will gladly hire them for 10ss out of keyword. Bump A&D up to 10ss and raise their wounds by 1, still amazing in Amalgam but I'll be less likely to hire out of keyword. Also if you want to make the demise fairer and more focused around reformation, make Dust Storm insignificant.

[Zebo]

I also think that Von Schill's gun could perfectly became weak 3 again, his trigger is quite bad, and reports in the beta (at least those I saw in my group) didn't said he was broken in any way.

[Micawber]

 

3 hours ago, Zebo said:

I also think that Von Schill's gun could perfectly became weak 3 again, his trigger is quite bad, and reports in the beta (at least those I saw in my group) didn't said he was broken in any way.

They obviously want him to play more of a supporting role with the option to fight with his very solid attacks if it becomes necessary. Upping his guns min dmg to 3 will just make him a very tough gun plattform for a lot of people. I don't think that's the direction they wanted go go.

Apart from that he might still get a title card at some point that makes him more of a straight fighting beast.

[Trample]

On 12/5/2019 at 3:55 AM, Zebo said:

 

8. Outcast upgrades - Both Hired Soldier and Wanted Criminal are very weak, specially when compared to other faction's upgrades.

 

Usually. Wanted Criminal can be pretty good with Parker. With that and cashing out he can draw 6 cards attacking a single model in a turn . He has to cheat or stone for tomes, but can replenish stones in the same manner

[Zebo]

14 hours ago, Trample said:

Usually. Wanted Criminal can be pretty good with Parker. With that and cashing out he can draw 6 cards attacking a single model in a turn . He has to cheat or stone for tomes, but can replenish stones in the same manner

Agree, but an upgrade that's only viable with one out of eight crews seems like quite bad for me.

Protection Money is a very situational ability, and we only accept it because of Bandits having Drop It to force it, but still is very uncommon.

Expert Thief is another very situational action, only can be used versus a small amount of targets, you must spend actions and renounce to damage enemy key models to do it, and even the stat for it is low for their targets.

 

And the same with Hired Soldier. People seem happy paying 2ss for HtK, wheh I never would hire any actual outcast model for 2ss more if it only had HtK to compensate, and This Will Fetch a High Price is barely never come to play. The Bounty Hunter ability seems good, but a bit hard to achieve with minions (and the more dangerous minions cannot attach it).