Issues for possible Errata

[Maniacal_cackle]

Id like to see Bandersnatch errata-ed so it can take attacks while buried.

Currently it can only do that if it starts the activation buried. So it can't bury into someone's shadow and then attack them the same round. Bit clunky!

[ShinChan]

On 12/2/2019 at 9:14 AM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Does anything indicate Archie needs a nerf? Ressers are not doing exceptionally well in tournaments and many pros field lists without him (he is only auto include for Molly). And apparently he was hot garbage for many parts of the beta, so he is a very easy model to nerf into unplayability.

If this was beta, I'd suggest: take his mask off of his leap, BUT give crooligans fading (when this model discards a card, a friendly non master within pulse 2 gains the suit until the end of turn). It'd make an awesome synergy while weakening him out of keyword.

Since we are not in beta, I have to ask: is he really dominating, or are some people just struggling with him?

He certainly feels less scary than Ten Thunders in my local meta.

I've been playing Bayou a lot lately and he's never an issue, but maybe because of the easy access that we have to Ruthless.

Maybe, just put him at 10Wd, so it's easier to kill before the healing happens or he activates again and Leaps away. 

[LeperColony]

20 hours ago, ShinChan said:

I've been playing Bayou a lot lately and he's never an issue, but maybe because of the easy access that we have to Ruthless.

Maybe, just put him at 10Wd, so it's easier to kill before the healing happens or he activates again and Leaps away. 

Can models like Archie be fixed in isolation?  If you apply a slight nerf to him, will he still out class the other options?

[Fetid Strumpet]

Depends on keyword. Jack doesn’t generally take him now. Seamus is still going to take him unless he is definitively less good than the rider, then he’ll take the rider because Sybelle is garbage. Same with other keywords.

The more cohesive and the more options close to the line they have the less appealing Archie becomes if he is actually fairly costed.

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

You want to know folks where does this anti-Archie sentiment comes from? People are confused that Ressurectionists finally got models worth hiring! But seriously: the only tweak to Archie I find acceptable is rising his cost by exactly one, yet I don't see how it will make the game any better. KingJocko's comparision of Archie to the Jenga tower is probably the most accurate thing that was said about him in this thread. Pummeling him into fine mist will not make Shenlong any less scary, if you know what I mean.

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

Relating to the topic of that thread: the thing which I dont like the most is the irreducible damage on masters' attacks. I do understand that some anti-armor tech is necessary to keep armor in check, but why on earth prevent ss reduction as well? I though that irreducible damage was universally acknowledged as one of the main offenders in previous edition.

Sure, it may be argued that irreducible damage is not a problem per se: Molly has it, yet no one complains about that. So maybe Shen and Levi can keep theirs on the expense of something else. But I would rather get rid of that concept entirely, if I could.

Speaking of Shenlong: as a Ressurectionist player I find Drunken Kung Fu to be the main offender. In general, it counters specific masters and, in Ressurectionists, whole keywords just way too hard. I like the thematic side of Drunken Kung Fu and I think it will be not only more balanced but also more fluffy to change the text of Drunken Kung Fu into "When this model performs a duel, it treats all... etc". This change should be combined with the change to irreducible damage trigger: I suggest changing it into the "ignore Armor" trigger. Thus Shen can still use his Distracted trick and counters Serene Countenance, but Masters who rely on it are not doomed, as they can defend themselves with soulstones and Shielded.

Just my two cents.

[Cats Laughing]

On 12/1/2019 at 8:39 PM, Fetid Strumpet said:

And a big part of that is the fact he has flurry and leap. I really can’t think off the top of my head any other non-master model that gets essentially a free extra movement ability, not to mention one as good as a suited leap, AND an extra attack action.

The Sabertooth Cerebus has a suited leap and a few non-suited opportunities to gain extra attacks.  You can output 5 attacks (min 3 damage) if you can provide two masks and a crow at the right times.  It can also self-buff via putting Adversary on a target (which gives more free movement).  You could get 3 attacks on a target that was ~14-15" away at start of activation (5" Stalk Prey or 6" walk, 6"+50mm leap + 1" melee).  Is cheaper than Archie and can be taken multiple times.  Also has the ability to self-heal with a non-suited trigger and has terrifying.

Yes, I know, different faction.  Just putting this out there as a non-master with some similarities to the items people note with Archie.  Please don't nerf my kitties.

I'm in the Archie is probably fine camp, despite having been on the receiving end of Archie and thinking he is quite powerful.

[CD1248]

2 hours ago, Cats Laughing said:

The Sabertooth Cerebus has a suited leap and a few non-suited opportunities to gain extra attacks.  You can output 5 attacks (min 3 damage) if you can provide two masks and a crow at the right times.  It can also self-buff via putting Adversary on a target (which gives more free movement).  You could get 3 attacks on a target that was ~14-15" away at start of activation (5" Stalk Prey or 6" walk, 6"+50mm leap + 1" melee).  Is cheaper than Archie and can be taken multiple times.  Also has the ability to self-heal with a non-suited trigger and has terrifying.

Yes, I know, different faction.  Just putting this out there as a non-master with some similarities to the items people note with Archie.  Please don't nerf my kitties.

I'm in the Archie is probably fine camp, despite having been on the receiving end of Archie and thinking he is quite powerful.

Not a great comparison, Saber needs a 7 for his leap vs Archie's 5, doesn't have any built in trigger suits, isn't ruthless (but still wp4!), and it's only healing is on a trigger (not built in and mutually exclusive with Onslaught).

Front of card it has Unimpeded, +1Df, and Deadly Pursuit vs Hard to Wound and a higher Terrifying.

You could maybe make the argument that a Sabertooth reaches Archie's level if we assume it has relevant Mutation upgrades, but at that point it's had Master actions pumped into it so it had darn well better be.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Another thing to note about Archie is he commonly uses four cards (1 to leap, 1 to flurry, 2 for offensive and defensive duels). If a model is that resource hungry, it should be having an impact for the number of resources used.

And he can't focus, which means cheating is his only way to get higher duel averages. Nor can he negate negative flips on damage, so he has to spam attacks and hit with them.

When I have seen him OOK, that was another struggle for him. Draining your hand is a good thing for Molly sometimes, but it is terrible for other masters.

[Ogid]

On 12/6/2019 at 11:28 AM, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

You want to know folks where does this anti-Archie sentiment comes from? People are confused that Ressurectionists finally got models worth hiring! But seriously: the only tweak to Archie I find acceptable is rising his cost by exactly one, yet I don't see how it will make the game any better. KingJocko's comparision of Archie to the Jenga tower is probably the most accurate thing that was said about him in this thread. Pummeling him into fine mist will not make Shenlong any less scary, if you know what I mean.

The main problem is how little counterplay he offers and how big of a problem he is for what it costs. Leap means he is very hard to pin down and bodyblock so he goes where he wants. Numbskull shut down conditions that is another way to hinder problematic models (especially those with low Wp stats), and conditions are also damage and defense tech for some crews. Ruthless ignore a lot of defensive tech. And he also got good punch so it's not just an slippery tanky guy; it's one that can jump into your backyard and kill important supports or schemers fast. And unless the faction has easy access to Ruthless, he isn't easy to kill with his 11Wds, Terrifying(12), H2W and self-healing.

The only answer he has is ignoring him and asume he is going to pull more than his weight or hit him very hard and kill him before he activates and go away (which isn't that easy). The model per se is extremelly good. But with good support he starts to become even harder to manage: Buffs like Reliquaries (manos one=Regen+2 and eternal which also trigger his healing, so he is healed 5-7 Wds) or using the effigy to heal 1-3 and accomplice (which make him discard a card so another 1-3 healing) and then he activates and Flurry (another 1-3 healing, plus more if he got Regen). Being immune to conditions means also Sloth may heal him without slowing him.

He has some weak points like High defense armored guys (which usually require specific answer anyway) or Serene countereance (which are from 1 to 3 models per faction in the game); but he has the mobility to dodge these; the only way to pin him down that I can think is Diversion (3 models in the entire game, one being a master and other totems) or maybe crews that debuff attaching upgrades or tokens (which is also a fairly scarce mechanic... Crossroads, Plague and Honeypot... maybe Jack, but he is immune to staggered).

Challenging models like this one are fun to face from time to time, but when they start appearing in most crews of the faction is when I start to dislike them. I'd be fine with him as it is if he would only showed up in Molly crew and ocassionaly in others master's crews (which can be done with an special +1SS tax just for him or locking some ability under "if this leader has Forgotten keyword" for example) or changing him to allow a bit more of counterplay (making him more glassy or unable to bypass bodyblocks or leap in/out of combat).

16 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Another thing to note about Archie is he commonly uses four cards (1 to leap, 1 to flurry, 2 for offensive and defensive duels). If a model is that resource hungry, it should be having an impact for the number of resources used.

And he can't focus, which means cheating is his only way to get higher duel averages. Nor can he negate negative flips on damage, so he has to spam attacks and hit with them.

Not sure if I agree here... his leap only require a 5 and it's suited so it wouldn't require a card per turn. Flurry needs a card, but he also heals so it's a card very well used. He got stat 6 so it's not more resource hungry than other beaters; and with min 3 damage and Flurry he can do quite well with only min damage (especialy when he can attack 3 times starting 14'' from his target or 2 times starting 19'' away from it).

18 hours ago, CD1248 said:

Front of card it has Unimpeded, +1Df, and Deadly Pursuit vs Hard to Wound and a higher Terrifying.

Don't forget 2 extra Wds over his SS value!

[Maniacal_cackle]

6 hours ago, Ogid said:

Challenging models like this one are fun to face from time to time, but when they start appearing in most crews of the faction is when I start to dislike them. 

Not sure if I agree here... his leap only require a 5 and it's suited so it wouldn't require a card per turn. Flurry needs a card, but he also heals so it's a card very well used. He got stat 6 so it's not more resource hungry than other beaters; and with min 3 damage and Flurry he can do quite well with only min damage (especialy when he can attack 3 times starting 14'' from his target or 2 times starting 19'' away from it).

Again, is there any basis for claiming he appears in every crew? He appears in all Molly lists, and maybe two other masters some of the time from what I understand?

His leap requires you to cheat about 29% of the time. And all beaters are resource hungry which can hurt, but Archie tacks 1-2 extra cards on it. You get results, but it is a huge cost that is not trivial.

I'm curious how many games with/against him you've played? I know you like to theory craft, but for actual nerfs I reckon it is good to play 10+ games with the model on the table 😜

[Fetid Strumpet]

I’ve used him in 40+ games, does that count? And I think he’s undercosted by 2 Stones. I find he’s as good or better than the Dead Rider in almost every crew that can and might take either. And no he isn’t any more resource intensive than pretty much any good beater at his level. They are all card intensive to use.

Is it going to end the world to not change him, no. Should they change him, yes. Should they fix things like Reva and the absolute confusing mess her keyword is, and the Red Chapel keyword first, absolutely.

[Ogid]

In my local meta he is quite popular. But it's not just me, In the RES forums he is praised as an almost universal OOK pick and it's the same in Podcasts.

2 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I’ve used him in 40+ games, does that count? And I think he’s undercosted by 2 Stones. I find he’s as good or better than the Dead Rider in almost every crew that can and might take either. And no he isn’t any more resource intensive than pretty much any good beater at his level. They are all card intensive to use.

Is it going to end the world to not change him, no. Should they change him, yes. Should they fix things like Reva and the absolute confusing mess her keyword is, and the Red Chapel keyword first, absolutely.

I'd start with +1SS and see how it goes before going for a full +2SS... but yes, he is quite good.

However I think both putting models overperforming in line and buffing/fixing things that are not working should be done at the same time; models overperforming are going to get picked always before others, and will make harder to see if the buffs in the underperforming ones are working well or not.

[Fetid Strumpet]

That might have been true last edition when everyone could take everyone for the same cost, but it isn’t true now. Archie is pretty much better on a value basis than any individual model in Jack’s crew, but they don’t tend to take him because his synergies are so good. Fix the keyword issues and he will show up significantly less even if his points don’t drop.

[Ogid]

It's true the synergies help to stay in keyword and keep slightly stronger models from becoming must picks; but not all masters/crews rely so heavily in their synergies. But that's a good thing, having some flexibility to go OOK and adapt to the other crew without shooting yourself in the foot (or being able to play less standard crew) is positive imo.

[santaclaws01]

Archie is basically what Nekima or A&D were last edition, a faction defining beater. Only costs are less varied so he takes up more space than he otherwise should. If he gets errated it should be for the health of the faction(which could otherwise do with some other buffs anyways), but the rest of the game as a whole will be fine if he stays the same.

[solkan]

20 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Archie is basically what Nekima or A&D were last edition, a faction defining beater. Only costs are less varied so he takes up more space than he otherwise should. If he gets errated it should be for the health of the faction(which could otherwise do with some other buffs anyways), but the rest of the game as a whole will be fine if he stays the same.

Unlike the previous edition, there's documentation to indicate that Archie is NOT supposed to be a faction defining beater model.  If the designers want to just give up and leave him that way, they should at least errata him to be Versatile.  👻

On the bright side, probably the only thing that people accomplish in the errata wish list threads is venting, and providing a bunch of noisy data about where the symptoms of the problems are (and occasionally pointing out the problems).  

 

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, solkan said:

Unlike the previous edition, there's documentation to indicate that Archie is NOT supposed to be a faction defining beater model.  If the designers want to just give up and leave him that way, they should at least errata him to be Versatile.  👻

On the bright side, probably the only thing that people accomplish in the errata wish list threads is venting, and providing a bunch of noisy data about where the symptoms of the problems are (and occasionally pointing out the problems).  

 

Yeah, I was more just pointing out that I think the issues with his strength are at the faction level, but not beyond that.

[Maniacal_cackle]

7 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I’ve used him in 40+ games, does that count? And I think he’s undercosted by 2 Stones. I find he’s as good or better than the Dead Rider in almost every crew that can and might take either. And no he isn’t any more resource intensive than pretty much any good beater at his level. They are all card intensive to use.

I think your suggestion (increasing soulstones cost) is the best suggestion, so yeah your 40 games count 😜

Another errata issue that'd make sense is errating leap to completely within, since that is an oversight of the changes that happened in the beta.

Another change could be through gaining grounds - the game currently massively favours highly mobile models. There's a reason the first mate is so good. Claim jump as a strategy (one model near the centre, then two, then three) is an example of a meta where grave golem might be better than archie.

3 hours ago, solkan said:

On the bright side, probably the only thing that people accomplish in the errata wish list threads is venting, and providing a bunch of noisy data about where the symptoms of the problems are (and occasionally pointing out the problems).  

Very true, but I worry if that noisy data ever dominates a process. I assume Wyrd is pretty good about it.

[rober695]

I am all in on errata. It seems silly to think that they got a game with this many models exactly right the first time. I personally would like to see cards go the way of the dinosaur. And switch to the app exclusively. That way everyone has the latest errata at tourneys, and Wyrd has a platform to pull game data from for balancing.

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, rober695 said:

I personally would like to see cards go the way of the dinosaur. And switch to the app exclusively. 

I'd rather not have my ability to play in a tournament be dependent on technology working perfectly or making sure a device is charged enough for it.

[Ogid]

3 hours ago, rober695 said:

I am all in on errata. It seems silly to think that they got a game with this many models exactly right the first time. I personally would like to see cards go the way of the dinosaur. And switch to the app exclusively. That way everyone has the latest errata at tourneys, and Wyrd has a platform to pull game data from for balancing.

I'd also like a system different from cards that allow for more changes when needed, but with also some physical stuff; not only all App based. However it's not that easy to transition from one system to the other and a some folks really like the cards... Something like that was discused recently here.

[Fetid Strumpet]

1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

I'd rather not have my ability to play in a tournament be dependent on technology working perfectly or making sure a device is charged enough for it.

Even being fully charged wouldn’t do it. I played a game with it exclusively and even while plugged in it was losing power. The app drains a good deal of power to use.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I agree that relying on an app stinks - I bought a backup battery for my last tournament and still had battery issues.

But to me the bigger reason to be conservative with power-errata is that people spend so much time and money on a crew, and it is very easy to nerf a crew into unplayability (at a competitive level). Given that will already be happening via Gaining Grounds and meta shifts, power-level errata seems dangerous if used unnecessarily.

The cost of replacing cards is trivial compared to the cost of replacing models or crews.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Not a very good argument in my opinion, given the existence of Dead Man’s Hand.