what's your crutch?

[RustAndTheCity]

I have a tough time making a guild list without Francisco in it or an Arcanist list without Cassandra.

[Fetid Strumpet]

There is no such thing as a crutch in this game.

[Vorschlag]

Most of mine are either masters i'm too familiar with within a faction, i.e Zoraida and Somer are very hard to turn down when available (for me) where as someone like Lucius or Titania I play a lot not because I'm as good with them yet but because I want to be.

Or master specefic crutches which I use too regularly with certain masters.

Zoraida - due to paralyze spam I hate not taking in a Nurse and now I suppose we add Wisp to that.
- in gremlins Id probably add warpig to her as It has won me too many games to remember.

Lucius - Queeg - either for pathfinders or for Rougarou

Collodi - Mannequin - scheme marker Frisbees are so hard to pass over

Pandora - Weaver, almost always take weaver

Titania - Emissary - I try to treat the Emissary like a rider where they only show up in times of desperate need - Titania and sometimes Lucius make me break this rule finding the emissary in crews too often.

Neverborn in general: widow weaver and Emissary are my most common hires . . . probably too common.

Gremlins - slop haulers in almost every list even Zoraida for appetizing on the hemmed model.

Most common crutches I see in play from opponents - Guild - Francisco - Everyone else - Johann Outcasts and thunders went through a stage locally with snipers in every list, that seems to have died down a little.

Crutches normally form because either - the model is below cost for what it does or a player becomes so familiar with a piece they use it like a precision tool.
Both "can" become issues but the first is certainly the greater of the two, precision players also often specialize in a limited number of masters and crew builds which is very crutchy but it's sometime just because they are so comfortable and confident in those masters/builds that they do literally feel like they hobble without them.

Then there's the upgrades: I have over reliance on fears given form with Titania and Pandora but also for one Zoraida build.... less so with other master/henchman combos.

[Angelshard]

9 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

There is no such thing as a crutch in this game.

Just curious, what do you mean? I can see some arguments for this, but I think it mainly hinges on your definition of a crutch.

For me a crutch is a model that I throw into a crew without thinking as it almost always helps me win, and sometimes that ends up costing me games, either because it gets taken out early and I need it to make the rest of my crew work, or because it really didn't suit that scheme pool or list.

It can also prevent you from trying out new things.

[Ludvig]

I thought the definition of a crutch was a model you couldn't perform without.

Mortimer ususally felt like a crutch for Nikodem because many Nico players couldn't adapt if they left him at home and would rather play another master than Nico without Mortimer.

In the same way a lot of guild players seem to think you can't play LJ/Perdita/Sonnia without Francisco which makes him a crutch for those masters/players.

 

Any model you always bring and you can't adapt to not bringing seems like a crutch to me. If you can do well without them they're more like safety blankets or top picks. Crutch is a derogatory term in my head.

[Angelshard]

@Ludvig

I think I'm trying to say the same, in your example Mortimer getting taken out turn one could cause a loss as he's integral to the crew that player has made.

I don't know enough about ressers to know if there a good builds without Mortimer, but I'm guessing a lot of players wouldn't find them if there is, as they always just put him in the list without looking at alternatives.

For me the worst thing a crutch does is preventing you from trying new things.

Also as other people have said, always putting in condition removal can end up harming you as those points might have been spent better if the opponent doesn't really bring conditions and if the removal dies early you could have trouble playing around things like paralyze, because you've always just removed it and haven't tried playing around conditions. 

 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Crutch is flat out a derogatory term that has no place in the game. It's a way to go well you're not really a good player because you can't win without x. To which I say so what?

[Treehouse]

Neverborn: Doppelgaenger, Lilitu, often Johan (not in Dreamer)

 

Arcanists: Mysterious Effigy, Angelica

[Ludvig]

2 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Crutch is flat out a derogatory term that has no place in the game. It's a way to go well you're not really a good player because you can't win without x. To which I say so what?

As long as you only use it to refer to your own autotakes I don't find it harmful. I would never in a million years call someone else out by saying they have a crutch but this thread is asking players to look to themselves which I don't find problematic. Do you have a better term to use?

[Tokapondora]

@Fetid Strumpet A crutch is something you rely on excessively, possibly to your detriment. Nothing derogatory about it and something you will find with any player. As for me, I'm as vanilla as they come in wanting either Yu or the Emissary in my list. Can't imagine playing without my Pushbot 3000's. Also condition removal. And I suppose Recalled Training is, to a degree.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I still reject the whole concept. Is your master a crutch? Are high cards? To me this sounds even if just talking about your own play like saying gee I'm not really a true/good/effective player unless I purposefully take suboptimal choices and learn to win with them.

I will still maintain there is no such thing as a crutch, and that it is a derogatory term even if only used in regards to yourself. 

[Myyrä]

6 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I still reject the whole concept. Is your master a crutch? Are high cards? To me this sounds even if just talking about your own play like saying gee I'm not really a true/good/effective player unless I purposefully take suboptimal choices and learn to win with them.

I will still maintain there is no such thing as a crutch, and that it is a derogatory term even if only used in regards to yourself. 

Does it matter if someone is being self-derogatory?

[Tokapondora]

And you'd be wrong. When I started this game, with my limited model pool I slipped into a habit of using a Sniper in all my crews, to a point where I automatically counted 7SS out for pretty much every game because I'd gotten so used to their picking off scheme runners and late game scheming themselves. And by relying so much on them, though still very good and helpful models, I've been casting aside plenty of units that would've been a much better fit in some situations. Nothing derogatory about recognizing that and pointing it out; it's simply a point of self reflection. And in talking about other people's crutches all you're doing is giving advice and telling them their possible over reliance on this-and-that might actually be an obstacle to their play. 

[Ludvig]

@Fetid Strumpet

Thanks for explaining. I look up to anyone who can win a tournament because I think that is an achievement and I don't think there are any models that are so good that you don't need to be a good player to win with them.

That being said I'd think it was a hell of a lot cooler for someone to solo Lucius just before his errata and win a tournament than if they used one of the generally highly rated masters. That's the kind of stuff I would talk about for a long time.

When I found that I always took McCabe no matter the pool or opposing faction I took him out of my bag to force myself into taking other masters. It wasn't based on elitism because I wasn't so good with McCabe that I was always winning but I felt like I needed to try different tactics and not go stale. I would definitely have called McCabe a crutch for me.

@Tokapondora I don't agree at all with your last post. Saying someone else has a crutch model is not helpful, only hurtful. Auto include or favourite are neutral terms to use for frequently taken models. It's really not polite to suggest someone is over reliant on something. If they're asking for advice you can offer it or suggest swapping a few models in their list.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'll just have to agree to disagree. I would say you are wrong tokapondra.

[Vorschlag]

Something you rely upon on or lean heavily upon which if removed you would struggle or feel less stable in the absence there of.

Seems fitting.

 

I call some of my masters crutches and when I stopped using those I was more comfortable and confident with my w/l/d crashed.

Some models or upgrades fit into the same category, remove them from their usual line up and a player can spend a whole game fumbling in their abscence wishing they had taken them as they fail to adapt.

In a worse case you could see it cause something akin to a mild anxiety attack brought on by power object fixation.

When it's a model which a larger portion of the player base constantly take I think that's more of an issue especially when you constantly see it over promoted on forums etc.

I doubt we'll ever see a war gaming community that doesn't develop the crutch / o.p - not competitive scale.

It's just the nature of 20% of a population who play specifically to win (if the numbers are to be believed).

[Tokapondora]

@Ludvig So is it telling someone they might be too reliant on certain models that's hurtful or is it using that specific word to describe it? At some point your leg may have healed and you won't need that crutch anymore, but the longer you'll keep using it the longer it'll take for you to get used to using that leg. Someone could've gotten great usage out of those pieces, but there might come a time where their reliance on those pieces will make their lists sub-optimal and make it harder and harder to stop using it.

Doesn't mean you have to enter every conversation yelling CRUTCH CRUTCH CRUTCH but if you're ever finding yourself in a discussion involving people's playstyles and preferences pointing out that they may have ingrained biases for models that might ultimately cost them is completely fine. Crutch just happens to be the word that's perfectly described that scenario, and honestly this thread is the first time I've ever heard of the word specifically being derogatory. You can be a dick about it, sure, but that doesn't really relate to people giving this specific piece of advice and is nothing but a personal failure.

[Ludvig]

@Tokapondora

You are right of course, I was not implying you used it like you described there.

There is a big difference between "I don't think you need Francisco in this list, if you swapped him for X it would open up this sort of play" and saying "You're crutching on Francisco". The former is clearer in meaning. I for one had never picked up on crutch being used as a model you no longer need so I would have taken it as a poke at my ability. If you know the other person has the same definiion of the word because you know each other that well it shouldn't be a problem.

[WWHSD]

On 12/16/2017 at 8:06 AM, Fetid Strumpet said:

Crutch is flat out a derogatory term that has no place in the game. It's a way to go well you're not really a good player because you can't win without x. To which I say so what?

That's not how I tend to use the term. I don't see a crutch as the "overpowered thing that lets you win" but more as "a thing you rely on that may keep you from growing as player".

I'd say for me Arcane Reservoir is a crutch. I take it almost constantly. It's a good upgrade and I love the extra card but it limits my crew building because I'm essentially just down to two upgrade slots on my master. I'm hesitant to build a crew without it so I may be bringing it when I'd probably be better off with a different upgrade.   

[Angelshard]

That's pretty much my view too.

I guess it's still a negative term, but I wouldn't say derogatory, limiting is a better word.

[Sklertic]

And it's just a fun little thread/experiment anyway, so call it a crutch, favorite model, mascot or whatever, the end result is bound to be the same.

My favorite when I play Arcanists is Willie: Fast scheme runner, with some great defensive tools. When it's Ten Thunders I tend to gravitate towards Yin, as she's just good on the table and can frustrate my opponents. Sue is my overall favorite and almost my mascot for the game. I love the model, the abilities and the jokes imbedded in the character

[SAYNE]

For me it's likely Slop Hauler. It's so difficult to NOT just throw one in for it's points. Easy heals, great offensive utility, Reckless and Bayou 2 Card. Such a good model. Honestly I'm not even sure why id want to replace it other than for the sake of variety. 

A point to note as well, I find that certain models likely turn into crutches for the necessity of their role. There aren't many games when not having a heavy hitter is a good idea, and when there are only so many heavy hitters in a faction, it practically guarantees the presence of one or more of those already limited models. Guild likely has some of the most diverse henchmen with damage all being good (relatively) and their utility each brings something different to the table, but at the least you can always rely on them to hurt stuff. In other factions (particularly NB and TT) this problem is exacerbated because while some do HAVE utility, without damage it becomes a corner case model automatically because it can't do the most general ability of all, Damage. Hopefully Hinamatsu shakes up the Nekima crutch I see. 

[Angelshard]

Sue is a fantastic concept and a great model. 

 

I've just started on guild and I can already see myself trying to fit The Jury in everywhere. The concept of guaranteed triggers when I need them is just soooo delicious.

[rober695]

For me as a 10T player...this would be Sensai Yu for sure. Use him in ever crew no matter what. It's like having two masters.

[Dragoon130]

So, I'm just coming back after some real life situations kept me from playing shortly after Storm of Shadows dropped but back then I would never run my Ressers without Bete Noir, a tradition that is carrying on so far. I find she' just such a great denial tool and I'm finding even more so in 2e. 

I also have an issue where I find myself taking a Teddy in every Neverborn game but I feel this will go down more as I learn the new models.