Changelings and Voodoo Dolls

[exliontamer]

Hello friends, new to the forum, and to Neverborn. Thinking about picking up Zoraida and I had some questions about Changelings and Voodoo Dolls...

Firstly, how does Copycat work with Hem? Hem specifically states that a model "gains the following Condition until this model takes this Action again or leaves play." Soooo, if a Doll Hems something, and then a Changeling Copycats Hem onto something else, you should now have two models with the Sewn Fate condition, right? As written models only lose the Condition if "this model" takes the Action a second time. Not any model. This seems pretty good for multiplying the Doll's mischief. I understand I will need at minimum an 11 of Masks for this to work, but assuming I have it in hand this seems like a good time to use it.

Nextly, I hear people like to take a Nurse to..."treat"...the Voodoo Doll, and this seems awesome. With Copycat you can stack insane Poison on a Doll and its related Sewn Fate friends, and with no real downside as Syringe is a Ml4 unsuited Action anyway. In a reasonable turn with just one Nurse and Changeling you should be able to get to at least Poison +16...right? Then I thought, does anyone ever take a Performer to then "pop" that insane Poison bomb (on the Sewn Fate target, not the Doll) to do like 16ish dmg at 12 inches? Also, assuming you don't kill the target due to Hard to Kill, they still take 1 dmg when the Doll's Poison ticks down at the end of turn. This seems goodish, and possibly unexpected...especially against a crew with little condition removal. Thoughts?

I am thinking something like this to start, based solely on models I own plus Zoraida crew if I get it...

Zoraida with Hex Bag (for Burning or blocking SS use)

Barabaros with Thousand Faces (to gum up the middle with challenge...though I would consider another model here)

Illuminated x 2

Performer

Nurse

Changeling x 3 (this could also be one Changeling and some Tots...or something else, but I love a good Changeling or two, especially following an Illuminated around)

 

Anyway, looking for answers to my Qs, input, etc. Thanks!

[Pikciwok]

You can't copy Hem because it's an attack mentioning a model by name.

[exliontamer]

Oh wow, you are right on that. Haha. Thanks!

[Nikodemus]

Isn't every individual instance of damage via the doll capped at Doll's current wound count? Which is six or so, at best.

It's good enough as is without one-shotting most masters in the game 

[Adran]

9 hours ago, exliontamer said:

 

Nextly, I hear people like to take a Nurse to..."treat"...the Voodoo Doll, and this seems awesome. With Copycat you can stack insane Poison on a Doll and its related Sewn Fate friends, and with no real downside as Syringe is a Ml4 unsuited Action anyway. In a reasonable turn with just one Nurse and Changeling you should be able to get to at least Poison +16...right? Then I thought, does anyone ever take a Performer to then "pop" that insane Poison bomb (on the Sewn Fate target, not the Doll) to do like 16ish dmg at 12 inches? Also, assuming you don't kill the target due to Hard to Kill, they still take 1 dmg when the Doll's Poison ticks down at the end of turn. This seems goodish, and possibly unexpected...especially against a crew with little condition removal. Thoughts?

I

 

You could do it, but its quite resource intensive, yes you are doing 16 damage at range is you have spent 2 master Ap, plus sucessfully cast Hem, plus used 4 ap from a total of 9ss of models to load up on the poison, and then spent another 6 ss on a performer who has to hit the target. 

So for 17 SS and 2/3 of a master you have manged to kill off something if they have no conditon removal. 

[exliontamer]

4 hours ago, Nikodemus said:

Isn't every individual instance of damage via the doll capped at Doll's current wound count? Which is six or so, at best.

I did specify...

11 hours ago, exliontamer said:

on the Sewn Fate target, not the Doll

 

1 hour ago, Adran said:

You could do it, but its quite resource intensive, yes you are doing 16 damage at range is you have spent 2 master Ap, plus sucessfully cast Hem, plus used 4 ap from a total of 9ss of models to load up on the poison, and then spent another 6 ss on a performer who has to hit the target.

Yeah I hear you, although I think you are taking a pretty narrow view based on one thing I said. I'm not saying I would do it that way every time...clearly I'm not going to focus so many resources on this just to be flashy if it won't help me win the game. It was an extreme example. I mean a beater like Nekima with an upgrade is nearly as many SS too, my idea here is spreading around the points for access to more AP so the list is actually fairly flexible. Sure it can do a huge explosive thing by committing resources, but it can also play a lot of control and denial. Changelings can copy so many high value things, including Bewitch, Illuminated attacks, and not to mention whatever Actions my opponent brings to the table. And while you frame the Performer as a 6ss tax, I actually think her utility could add a lot to the list...a well placed Seduction benefits so many abilities, and Siren Call is disruptive even without any triggers, especially with Changelings' pseudo-pounce. 

I appreciate the critique though and it makes me think. I'd really like additional input. For instance, assuming I am pretty set on at least having one Nurse, one Changeling and two Illuminated...what would you rather take to background but compliment the Doll shenanigans? (assuming a strat/scheme pool that favors this...I'm not suicidal or stupid)

[Joachim]

Why would you stack poison if the nurse can paralyze?

 

I don't think hiring changelings is the best option. The emissary is 2ss cheaper than 3 changelings and 2ss more expensive than 2. And he can easily summon in some when you need them. But he can also control an area with his dangerous terrain, and has some other tricks, including improving zoraidas obey. I've only had the chance to play the emissary three times but I absolutely loved him in all of those games.

[Adran]

43 minutes ago, exliontamer said:

Yeah I hear you, although I think you are taking a pretty narrow view based on one thing I said. I'm not saying I would do it that way every time...clearly I'm not going to focus so many resources on this just to be flashy if it won't help me win the game. It was an extreme example. I mean a beater like Nekima with an upgrade is nearly as many SS too, my idea here is spreading around the points for access to more AP so the list is actually fairly flexible. Sure it can do a huge explosive thing by committing resources, but it can also play a lot of control and denial. Changelings can copy so many high value things, including Bewitch, Illuminated attacks, and not to mention whatever Actions my opponent brings to the table. And while you frame the Performer as a 6ss tax, I actually think her utility could add a lot to the list...a well placed Seduction benefits so many abilities, and Siren Call is disruptive even without any triggers, especially with Changelings' pseudo-pounce. 

I appreciate the critique though and it makes me think. I'd really like additional input. For instance, assuming I am pretty set on at least having one Nurse, one Changeling and two Illuminated...what would you rather take to background but compliment the Doll shenanigans? (assuming a strat/scheme pool that favors this...I'm not suicidal or stupid)

Whilst you are learning, sticking with a pre-planned list is a good idea, but one of the best things about malifaux (in my mind) is that each game can be very different, and you don't need to pick a list until you know what you are doing. I don't have much luck with illuminated, I don't think I've ever got them to heal a wound, they just die. (playing into Hanged and decaying aura doesn't help, which they always seem to do when I put them on the table) You might want to look at ways at using brilliance to up their damage track, but its not essential. 

On e of the best Nurse Tricks for Zoraida is her last action of her turn, obey the nurse to fully heal Zoraida, and paralyse Zoraida. It ends her activation, which you were about to do anyway, and she is on full wounds.

I've not ever used a changling, and I don't have much success with using voodoo dolls. If you want to use them, I would strongly suggest getting a will o the wisp, as a much cheaper way to get a doll out. 

Performers can be really strong, and if you are planning on playing with poison, then they are very handy. I really like them for their scheming power myself, don't mind me means I can interact where I like, and seduction means I can always get rid of enemy scheme markers. Occasionally I'll sirens call but its not normally my planned use for them. But liek I said if you are using poison, then its value goes up. 

[exliontamer]

1 hour ago, Joachim said:

Why would you stack poison if the nurse can paralyze?

 

I don't think hiring changelings is the best option. The emissary is 2ss cheaper than 3 changelings and 2ss more expensive than 2. And he can easily summon in some when you need them. But he can also control an area with his dangerous terrain, and has some other tricks, including improving zoraidas obey. I've only had the chance to play the emissary three times but I absolutely loved him in all of those games.

Yeah the Emissary does seem cool. I don't own it yet and will definitely pick it up eventually. The model looks really cool too, IMO. As for the poison vs paralyze, you can do both in a single AP with a Nurse if you have the cards...and having two annoying/potentially dangerous conditions on a model puts the opponent in a conundrum about what they need to cleanse, assuming they even can. Seems worth it to me on occasion, assuming the resources are on hand.

1 hour ago, Adran said:

Whilst you are learning, sticking with a pre-planned list is a good idea, but one of the best things about malifaux (in my mind) is that each game can be very different, and you don't need to pick a list until you know what you are doing.

I hear you on this, but the way my brain works (I can be easily flustered on game/tournament day) it is usually best for me to plan out several types of lists that are good at achieving certain Strats/Schemes, and that also have some sort of internal synergy. That way when I see what I'm up against I can easily say, well I'll reach for Crew X. At that point I may strategically decide to swap out a minion here or there, or what have you, but at least I have a general game plan in my brain.

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I would strongly suggest getting a will o the wisp, as a much cheaper way to get a doll out.

Oh nice, I hadn't considered them. Another model I don't own but will have a long look at.

1 hour ago, Adran said:

On e of the best Nurse Tricks for Zoraida is her last action of her turn, obey the nurse to fully heal Zoraida, and paralyse Zoraida. It ends her activation, which you were about to do anyway, and she is on full wounds.

Excellent. I like this a lot.

 

Thanks for the replies so far guys. I really appreciate it. Lots of food for thought.

[Ergonomic Cat]

Having a set of cores isn't a bad idea.  Don't build a 50ss list, but most players have a handful of 20-25ss builds in mind for various situations.

 

[exliontamer]

1 hour ago, Ergonomic Cat said:

Having a set of cores isn't a bad idea.  Don't build a 50ss list, but most players have a handful of 20-25ss builds in mind for various situations.

 

Point taken. I think the more comfortable I get with the game the easier this will be for me.

[Ergonomic Cat]

On 5/19/2017 at 2:38 PM, exliontamer said:

Point taken. I think the more comfortable I get with the game the easier this will be for me.

Yup.  I was new to Malifaux not too long ago, and I found that there's a curve that experienced players forget.

You start off with a master or two (In theory.  I started with 4, but normal people don't, I assume) and a couple of models.  So your first set of games are literally "I have these models.  I will play them."  Your choices are basically "Do I use two or three Illuminated?"  

Then you start to ask the "Okay, what do I add?" questions.  And you pick up the Neverborn All-Stars, or something to shore up your weak spots, or whatever.  And now you have maybe 90ss worth of models.  So you need to latch on to a core build, because you just can't keep what 90ss worth of models do and don't do compared to 5 schemes and a strat.  So you know "If it's killing, I take these guys and if it's schemes, I take these."  So you have a core of 30ss or so that you get, and know how to use, and then you add another 2-3 models to try out, mostly based on "Uh, these Terror Tots seem really popular."

Then eventually you move to having opinions about models and positions.  "This game needs 2 scheme runners - I always prefer Gupps unless I'm playing Lynch.  I know people like Nekima, but I'd rather have Barbaros and a Changeling for the points.  Everyone loves Collodi, but I just don't click with him."  At that point, you've entered "It depends on the schemes and strats" territory.  But there's a whole process to getting to that point.  And honestly, once you're to that point, you think in terms of packages, I think.  "I need a 'hold-the-center' package and a 'scheme-runner + denial' package here." "I want to bring the pounce package of Tooth + Lilith + a Pouncer."  Stuff like that.

[Mutter]

On 22.5.2017 at 6:44 PM, Ergonomic Cat said:

Yup.  I was new to Malifaux not too long ago, and I found that there's a curve that experienced players forget.

This. Awesome post.

It annoys me no end when new players ask 'What should I play' and all they get is: 'Depends'.

That's just not how it works in real life as a newb.

[Mac_Atk]

Quote

On 5/22/2017 at 12:44 PM, Ergonomic Cat said:

Then eventually you move to having opinions about models and positions.  "This game needs 2 scheme runners - I always prefer Gupps unless I'm playing Lynch.  I know people like Nekima, but I'd rather have Barbaros and a Changeling for the points.  Everyone loves Collodi, but I just don't click with him."  At that point, you've entered "It depends on the schemes and strats" territory.  But there's a whole process to getting to that point.  And honestly, once you're to that point, you think in terms of packages, I think.  "I need a 'hold-the-center' package and a 'scheme-runner + denial' package here." "I want to bring the pounce package of Tooth + Lilith + a Pouncer."  Stuff like that

This is probably the best explanation of how to plan out your crews into 'packages' ahead of time to speed up the crew selection process. After playing a scheme a couple times and missing out on points, this points out gaps in model collection and can direct future purchases.  

Newer players should also expect the "it depends" answer without a specific scheme/strategy to achieve. Better question would be sometime like... "What should I get to help with scheme running using Pandora? Current models are ____".

 

[Stewbert]

On 5/22/2017 at 5:44 PM, Ergonomic Cat said:

Yup.  I was new to Malifaux not too long ago, and I found that there's a curve that experienced players forget.

You start off with a master or two (In theory.  I started with 4, but normal people don't, I assume) and a couple of models.  So your first set of games are literally "I have these models.  I will play them."  Your choices are basically "Do I use two or three Illuminated?"  

Then you start to ask the "Okay, what do I add?" questions.  And you pick up the Neverborn All-Stars, or something to shore up your weak spots, or whatever.  And now you have maybe 90ss worth of models.  So you need to latch on to a core build, because you just can't keep what 90ss worth of models do and don't do compared to 5 schemes and a strat.  So you know "If it's killing, I take these guys and if it's schemes, I take these."  So you have a core of 30ss or so that you get, and know how to use, and then you add another 2-3 models to try out, mostly based on "Uh, these Terror Tots seem really popular."

Then eventually you move to having opinions about models and positions.  "This game needs 2 scheme runners - I always prefer Gupps unless I'm playing Lynch.  I know people like Nekima, but I'd rather have Barbaros and a Changeling for the points.  Everyone loves Collodi, but I just don't click with him."  At that point, you've entered "It depends on the schemes and strats" territory.  But there's a whole process to getting to that point.  And honestly, once you're to that point, you think in terms of packages, I think.  "I need a 'hold-the-center' package and a 'scheme-runner + denial' package here." "I want to bring the pounce package of Tooth + Lilith + a Pouncer."  Stuff like that.

This here is a great description of the curve and the point where new players have a crew box or two built and construct their first crews to play a game is often where we lose new players because the investment to compete looks daunting.

 

 

[Fixxer]

As a Zoraida player myself I absolutely never play her without Will o the Wisps. 2 at least ,sometimes 3. With the addition of powerful control you really dont want Zoraida wasting her AP summoning dolls. 

Other than that, your plan looks solid. You could forego a couple changelings for Wisps or one of the Illuminated. I do like the illuminated for obeying an enemy to attack it and cheating a low card to lose a horror duel and paralyzing them. Not something you'll do all the time, but I think its a solid play when the opportunity arises. 

 

[Mununkulus]

On 5/19/2017 at 5:14 AM, Pikciwok said:

You can't copy Hem because it's an attack mentioning a model by name.

How so ? The attack doesn't mention a model by name, the applied condition if the attack succeeds only mentions the Voodoo Doll.

[Ludvig]

13 minutes ago, Mununkulus said:

How so ? The attack doesn't mention a model by name, the applied condition if the attack succeeds only mentions the Voodoo Doll.

I'd be interested to have this clarified. The way I see it all the text in the action is part of what the action mentions/lists because it is written as part of the action. Do you have a rules reference explaining your point of view?

[Mununkulus]

3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I'd be interested to have this clarified. The way I see it all the text in the action is part of what the action mentions/lists because it is written as part of the action. Do you have a rules reference explaining your point of view?

After a quick check-up with our local Hench, it seems that the action containing a condition naming a model counts as the action naming the model. So it does not work to copy hem.

[Aegnor]

Faq question 74 :

74) If a model has an Action or Ability which can copy an Action on another model but has a stipulation that the copied Action may not list any models by name (such as Just Like You! on the Malifaux Child), does that include Conditions contained within the copied Action which list a model by name (such as Protection of Metal on the Metal Gamin)? Also, can Actions be copied which force the player to name a specific model but do not list one? (For example, Nicodem’s Re-animator Action says to “name a Resurrectionist Minion Undead model,” but does not actually list one by name.) Actions such as Just Like You! which copy other Actions which do not list a model by name may not take either sort of Action. Conditions which are part of an Action’s text are considered to be a part of the Action for this purpose, so it does not matter where the model is listed by name. In the case of Actions such as Re-animator, naming a model is a part of the Action, so it again breaks the “may not list a model by name” restriction.

So changeling can't copy hem