Good Googly Goddamn, how can I make Pandora and her crew effective against high WP crews?

[perfectlyskewed]

Hey all, I'm sorta new here so apologies if this isn't the right spot to ask for help. I recently got into the game and I really like it, but I'm having a hard time playing my crew effectively. I went with a "ooo you look creepy" impulse grab on Pandora's crew, and I've since acquired a Widow Weaver and Teddy to help me out. I mostly play my partner (he's got a couple Ten Thunders Crews, Led by Misaki and Shenglong), and my willpower duels are pretty much useless it would seem. He always is able to cheat up to a decent save. Therefore nobody fails a WP duel, nobody is terrified or paralyzed, nobody is losing wounds to the auras of my sorrows and Pandora. Then I get messed up bad in close combat and by his snipers and Misaki, who also has hella good willpower with certain upgrades. I guess my base question is this; how the hell do I play these guys against high willpower crews? Do I need to go get even more models? I'm sorta trying to not spend all my cash but if that's my only option, oh well. I will say that I'm trying more now to keep the crew as close together as possible (where schemes and strategy allows), as it seems to help, especially having Candy on hand to heal my pathetically low wound models. Thanks in advance for any advice.

[HydroMog]

widow weaver is a great addition to pandy, just make sure you toss out your web markers to give the -1 to wp duels. also i believe this is cumulative if a model is within the aura of more than one. teddy is a good beater and should be able to deal with some of the higher wp models especially when pushed around by baby kade. maybe try tossing in another teddy or nekima. oh and dont forget about insideous madness as it can force your opponent to discard in order to cheat and its attack can reduce the wp of a model by 1 as well.

[perfectlyskewed]

Thanks so much! Totally forgot about Insidious Madness. I will look into Nekima. I definitely want a diverse crew.

[LennyB]

My big question is what kind of terrain are you using?  If you don't have enough it can be a problem.   Positioning is really important with Pandora and her crew to keep her alive.  Also, what schemes are you trying to run?  Pandora isn't necessarily about killing everything.  Controlling order of activations with Mood Swing and having Candy stand next to someone for sweets and sours can really lock down an opponent.    Also, don't forget you can focus to get + flips on the WP attacks that can help as well.  Just some random thoughts.

 

Are you playing Box Opens or Voices?  Voices can really mess with the opponents as long as you take care of condition removal models like Chiaki.

[Scotuki]

If you can, get hold of Lust. She has a (1) action that causes 3 willpower duels if successful. Also Mr Tannens cooler ability stops enemies from cheating. Nekima is a solid choice as she punches really hard. I hope this gives you a couple of ideas.  

[Ergonomic Cat]

Mr Tannen is also useful - models within 6 of him have to discard before cheating.  That limits them significantly.  Webs are also very useful for the wp penalty, just be sure you're getting people in range of a couple of them.  Teddy can do a good job keeping people corralled in the web markers if you place him right - the choice to be a -2 wp or be in Teddy's death range can be a tough one.

[Nikodemus]

TT/Shenlong player here.

First up, if my guy is on +flips (discarded Recalled Training this turn), don't bother if you don't have to. Statistics just aren't in your favour if you're only flipping one card and can't or won't cheat. Also if I have to cheat in a high card to avoid paralysis, that's a high card I'm not cheating in to actively hurt you. I'm sure you know what Misaki can do with a high crow. Do you/Neverborn in general have stuff that forces -flips? Flipping on negatives prevents cheating, could be something to consider if it still bothers you. I don't know if he's any good but look up Mr. Tannen, he has a funky anti-cheat aura.

Widow Weaver should be able to at least partially counter high WP. This is obviously easier in games that funnel things into the centre, but try to stack those web debuffs. WP8 -2 is 6, I'm sure you have enough Ca6 or better models to brute force through that, cheating high if necessary.

Don't rely just on your Pandora/WP gimmick and shenanigans. If your Teddy (or indeed Nekima) eats my schemers I'm a very sad Kung Fu Master. You hopefully have other tricks, use them as well. Just be careful with Teddy. Misaki can with a bit of work hit it with + flip on damage, Shenlong can easily punch + or ++ on damage against it. Teddy dies quick to that many + flips.

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I will say that I'm trying more now to keep the crew as close together as possible (where schemes and strategy allows), as it seems to help

Be careful with that. Both Misaki and Shenlong blast with their melee attacks.

Since you're new, don't forget to play for VP difference. If you can gain more VP or deny my VP by doing nasty things to me, do so. But if you spend all your resources chasing Misaki while her crew wins the game, well that's dandy for Misaki.

[perfectlyskewed]

7 minutes ago, LennyB said:

My big question is what kind of terrain are you using?  If you don't have enough it can be a problem.   Positioning is really important with Pandora and her crew to keep her alive.  Also, what schemes are you trying to run?  Pandora isn't necessarily about killing everything.  Controlling order of activations with Mood Swing and having Candy stand next to someone for sweets and sours can really lock down an opponent.    Also, don't forget you can focus to get + flips on the WP attacks that can help as well.  Just some random thoughts.

 

Are you playing Box Opens or Voices?  Voices can really mess with the opponents as long as you take care of condition removal models like Chiaki.

We generally play with tons of hard cover terrain, since we just started we're using old wooden blocks that we count as hard cover. We like to think of it as an abandoned and broken down temple somewhere. Pandora's short walk is sort of a problem as it's hard for me to move her around and keep her safe if she isn't surrounded by other models. Last time we played the strategy was Turf War and I got massacred, he got his high powered guys in close first and Misaki used her charge really effectively, and her blast damage. I usually don't run killing schemes if I can help it because I haven't had any luck with them so far. Distract is one I do well with. My crew isn't fast in general so I'm sometimes at a loss as to what schemes to play effectively, as my killing power is not great against stacked models like Misaki and her crew (Ototo is a bastard) and my mobility isn't super high either, not counting the Misery Loves Company of the woes of course. I just need to learn to keep my crew together in a blob or give in and buy more models. Or both

[Voodoo Specter]

One of your problems is your crew isn't conventionally fast but once you get into the swing of it you will find that it is surprisingly moblie you have to remember the weird interactions.

 Pandora can move every time she wins a wp dule this includes when she casts insite as it has a Wp on the attack no a Ca als she can use her Wp instead of her defence so pretty much any time she is attacked and it misses she can push wherever you want.

The sorrows misery loves company action makes them surprisingly fast as well. Remember push into base contact dosen't mean into base contact by the shortest route if you can draw a straight line and end up in base to base thats legal and as you are incoporeal you can go straight through the other side of your target if needed that and the range is 8 but that just means your target has to be in 8" when you use the action thats not the maximum distance you can move so with a bit of forethought and planning you can get some chain jumps to get you where you need to be.

Kade is reasonably quick on his own and his where's Teddy is great for getting the big guy in position not only that but he can use his lure to move friendly models towards him if needed.

Teddy himself has gobble you up which is in no way guaranteed to work but dont forget about it also note that if the gobble you up target is within 6" of him it will trigger smell fear and as it takes effect after resolving gobble you up you can push him then attack leaving you free to flurry and mall even some of the biggest hitters in the game on top of that he has the peekaboo trigger built in so once he is hitting he is moving himself and his target about pushing them in to you auras and away from their support the same push into base to base thing that applies to the sorrows applies to him to but he cant go directly through models so its a bit more limited  .

Insidious Madness are crazy fast walk 7 and incorporeal mean you can get them where you need them and their aura should really help with your high wp problem. 

Weaver widdow and candy are slowish but walk 5 isnt awful and they both have a ranged attack.

Other things to look out for are don't always go for the kill as others have said above use your abilities to tie your opponents up mess with their activation order throw them out of position etc and don't wast too many resorces killing masters they are a pain to deal with and taking down scheme runners or paralising a key minion or enforcer is often the better option this all depends on your schemes and strats though so you king of have to make case by case decisions which will come with more experience.

Oh and don't forget all your auras and to make your opponent to take their Manipulative and terror checks 

One more thing I suggest to new players who are struggling against a certain opponent is to swap crews with them for a game or 2 this way it gives you a chance to see the strengths and limitations of what they are running and also gives you a chance to see what they do in the driving seat with your crew as they might just spot a synergy or play style you haven't.

Hope that helps and wasn't too much of a rambling rant

 

[tuktuken]

Well, I play often against Misaki crew with Pandora, and I would say this is rather fair matchup (or even easier for Sad Lady).

First, as @Nikodemus said - your Terrifying ability is not to definitely paralyze someone, but to drain their hand. The same goes for Fears Given Form, which I recommand you to try on Pandora, if you didn't try it yet. If enemy loose their cards on passive tests, he woudn't have them for attacks or defence.

And here comes a trick - try to force your enemy to focus on Pandora and do not waste high cards for her attacks, unless you are sure you gonna kill something important or get big tactical adventage. Leave them for defence - with 7 WP used also as DF, and trigger which let you doge whole charge after wining first duel, Pandora is very hard to kill. And then, when you still have some cards and your enemy doesn't your beaters should come to action and eliminate vulnerable targets. Or you just can do schemes, being sure, that your runners are rather safe.

When it comes to mobility- try to use Incite as source of pushes. I usually only walks once or twice as Pandora. Pushes do the rest of my moving, controlling enemy activations just by the way
If it's not enugh - take Graves and Doppleganger, and see Pandora 12" upfield before her first ativation. 

And try to use Poltergeist sometime. This guy can be incredible against high WP targets, as he can gave them -flip. It's hard to use his aura effectively on first turn, as he needs to come 2" to tagret, but when you put on some Mood Swings with Pandora, it's rather easy to get him into position at the begining of turn two, and than, Pandora can give'em hell.

It's also good to have Mysterious Effigy if you have enough place, and still feel unsafe. Not much TT have 3" engagement, so after first hit you can push 3" away and avoid next. 

I would also consider droping Teddy, and/or Widow for something with higer defence if you see them go down quickly. 3 or 4 DF is relatively easy to beat even without cards to cheat. DF of 5 or 6 is much harder. You can try Bishop for example - he's mercenary, but he has really nice synergy with Pandora and Sorrows, attacking against WP and also he can dish out some paralyze.

[Shintoninja]

24 minutes ago, Voodoo Specter said:

One more thing I suggest to new players who are struggling against a certain opponent is to swap crews with them for a game or 2 this way it gives you a chance to see the strengths and limitations of what they are running and also gives you a chance to see what they do in the driving seat with your crew as they might just spot a synergy or play style you haven't.

Yeah she doesn't like my TTs crew so maybe I will run her crew at the shop against someone else. To be honest I'm starting to understand how to use Maski myself. 

[-Loki-]

3 hours ago, tuktuken said:

First, as @Nikodemus said - your Terrifying ability is not to definitely paralyze someone, but to drain their hand. The same goes for Fears Given Form, which I recommand you to try on Pandora, if you didn't try it yet. If enemy loose their cards on passive tests, he woudn't have them for attacks or defence.

This is something you won't appreciate until it happens. I played a Lucius player who cheated every Terrifying test he failed. Halfway through the turn, before he even activated Lucius his hand was gone. He obviously had a really good hand to cheat that much, but when it counted it was gone.

[HydroMog]

3 hours ago, tuktuken said:

First, as @Nikodemus said - your Terrifying ability is not to definitely paralyze someone, but to drain their hand. The same goes for Fears Given Form, which I recommand you to try on Pandora, if you didn't try it yet. If enemy loose their cards on passive tests, he woudn't have them for attacks or defence.
 

this is generally a good idea in reference to Fears given Form, however it can be a pain to play around if your just learning pandora as it applies to ALL models. but i would also suggest in addition to this to utilize models with manipulative. things like baby kade and doppelganger really come to mind.

[Joel]

its not that much of a pain really - if you park a model near pandora, you simly activate pandora before that model and move her away (she tends to move around a lot anyway)

you can use this to your advantage too - having black blood models splash damage about when they activate within a fears given form bubble can be a trick opponents don't see coming. 

[Four_N_Six]

I know he isn't a famous choice, but I love my Poltergeist.

[Chris Rivers]

One of her upgrades has an attack vs. DF that might help.  I don't know TT enough to know if their DF is lower.

[Clement]

17 hours ago, Voodoo Specter said:

The sorrows misery loves company action makes them surprisingly fast as well. Remember push into base contact dosen't mean into base contact by the shortest route if you can draw a straight line and end up in base to base thats legal and as you are incoporeal you can go straight through the other side of your target if needed that and the range is 8 but that just means your target has to be in 8" when you use the action thats not the maximum distance you can move so with a bit of forethought and planning you can get some chain jumps to get you where you need to be.

Neither of those things are true.   A push in reference to another model must *always* be directly towards or away (depending on ability) and when you make base contact you must stop immediately.

The good news (and likely why you remember this in this way) is that Sorrow's don't push into base contact, they *place* into base contact.   As such you can put them anywhere you want in base contact, just like you say

[Voodoo Specter]

1 hour ago, Clement said:

Neither of those things are true.   A push in reference to another model must *always* be directly towards or away (depending on ability) and when you make base contact you must stop immediately.

The good news (and likely why you remember this in this way) is that Sorrow's don't push into base contact, they *place* into base contact.   As such you can put them anywhere you want in base contact, just like you say

Correct me if I'm wron which I very well could be but a push "towards" or "away" from like Liliths Wicked Mistress ability or a mature nephlims Wing Buffet has to be direct and stop either at the point of contact with a model/impassable terrain or at the full distance of the push but a push "into base contact" like Teddy's Peekaboo can go anywhere as long as you end up in base contact and went in a straight line that wasn't blocked by models impassable terrain so for example could go the side of the target

However you are definitely right about the place on Misery Loves Company which makes this moot in the case of Sorrows, thanks for the clarification.

[Clement]

9 minutes ago, Voodoo Specter said:

Correct me if I'm wron which I very well could be but a push "towards" or "away" from like Liliths Wicked Mistress ability or a mature nephlims Wing Buffet has to be direct and stop either at the point of contact with a model/impassable terrain or at the full distance of the push but a push "into base contact" like Teddy's Peekaboo can go anywhere as long as you end up in base contact and went in a straight line that wasn't blocked by models impassable terrain so for example could go the side of the target

However you are definitely right about the place on Misery Loves Company which makes this moot in the case of Sorrows, thanks for the clarification.

That question comes up on the rules forum from time to time.  Short version of the answer is that you are pushing "in relation to another object" so you have to go directly toward or away.  Long version is --

 

Quote

 

"Some game effects require a model to be pushed in relation to another object, such as towards or away from another model. When this happens the model must move in a straight line while obeying these restrictions, moving directly towards (or away from) the specified object."

- pg 43 big rulebook, 4th paragraph under the "pushes" heading.

 

 

Source of quote, thanks Dogmantra!

[goth]

1 hour ago, Clement said:

Neither of those things are true.   A push in reference to another model must *always* be directly towards or away (depending on ability) and when you make base contact you must stop immediately.

The good news (and likely why you remember this in this way) is that Sorrow's don't push into base contact, they *place* into base contact.   As such you can put them anywhere you want in base contact, just like you say

Voodoo Specter misspoke, it is not a push, Sorrows are "surprisingly fast" because they can place in base contact with anybody within 8" and LoS, and are otherwise completely AP inefficient so what else but interact.

[Seadhna]

6 minutes ago, Clement said:

That question comes up on the rules forum from time to time.  Short version of the answer is that you are pushing "in relation to another object" so you have to go directly toward or away.  Long version is --

I do believe what @Voodoo Specter meant was the difference between "push toward/away" and "push into base contact" which (correct me if I'm wrong) are entirely different things, because you can push along any legal vector as long as you move in a straight line and end in base contact (or stop by hitting Impassable objects)

[Dogmantra]

13 minutes ago, Seadhna said:

(correct me if I'm wrong)

The rules aren't super clear on this, but when you push into base contact, you're still pushing in relation to another object (i.e. you are being told how to push based on the position of another object), and therefore you follow the rule that says you always push directly towards or away from a model.

"into base contact" isn't so much a measure of direction as it is distance, it essentially means "push towards the model far enough that you end up in base contact"

[Seadhna]

4 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

The rules aren't super clear on this, but when you push into base contact, you're still pushing in relation to another object (i.e. you are being told how to push based on the position of another object), and therefore you follow the rule that says you always push directly towards or away from a model.

"into base contact" isn't so much a measure of direction as it is distance, it essentially means "push towards the model far enough that you end up in base contact"

I see your point here, especially the distance part. 

Can't add any straight ruling from the book on this, but "push in a straight line until you are in base contact" still seems like a viable interpretation language-wise. 

Again, can't really argue RAI unless there's an official ruling on the matter (is there?), but my version seems more fun through being generally less restrictive and allowing for a higher percentage of situations where you say "hey I can do this in a fun way" and lower percentage of situations of "i can't really do this so this doesn't work" (a good example would be Dead Riders "Reap" trigger). 

[solkan]

11 minutes ago, Seadhna said:

I see your point here, especially the distance part. 

Can't add any straight ruling from the book on this, but "push in a straight line until you are in base contact" still seems like a viable interpretation language-wise. 

Again, can't really argue RAI unless there's an official ruling on the matter (is there?), but my version seems more fun through being generally less restrictive and allowing for a higher percentage of situations where you say "hey I can do this in a fun way" and lower percentage of situations of "i can't really do this so this doesn't work" (a good example would be Dead Riders "Reap" trigger). 

Part of the situation that's easy to overlook is the example on the same page as the Pushes rules.

The text in the example is "This Mature Nehelim has the Wing Buffet Tactical Action that pushes all models within 4 of itself directly away."  The text in Wing Buffet is "All enemy models within 4 are immediately pushed 3" away from this model."

The first time someone reads the Wing Buffet text without looking at the example, they're likely to say "push in a straight line as long as it's away" seems like a viable interpretation language-wise.  And they'd make the exact same case for 'away' as you've made for 'in base contact'.

More importantly, note that the paragraph in the push rules says this:

Quote

Some game effects require a model to be pushed in relation to another object, such as towards or away from another model.  When this happens the model must move in a straight line while obeying these restrictions, moving directing towards (or away from) the specified object.

Is a push into base contact a push specified in relation to another object?  Yes, it is.  Then the second sentence applies, so you move directly towards or away from the specified object.

 

[Voodoo Specter]

Well it looks like I've probably been playing Teddy and Graves wrong then. Also we have hi jacked the thread a bit. I will put up a rules queery in the rules section but it's more because I want my way to be right to make those two better your argument looks stronger from here given the wording