Math Mathonwy Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 2 hours ago, huntroll said: All this whining about Reva makes me really regret I didn't preorder her during GenCon. I also wonder if all the bitter people have ever played against a good Lilith player. One of the most insane hand sizes in the game and the potential to take two models out for a turn and swap one with one of your heavy hitters (preferably next to another one of your big guys) and to place a mobile terrain to stay out of LoS via Illusionary Forest, all of this while ignoring all LoS restrictions yourself. I doubt Reva would be any worse than that yet I don't see people crying for cuddles. I like how you used both "whining" and "crying" to describe how people you don't agree with communicate their opinions - always a good strategy to foster discussion. I also like how you apparently haven't played with nor against Reva yet offer an adamant opinion on her I'm guessing that your meta is being dominated By Lilith? I suggest posting a thread about how to counter her - there's quite a few ways (it won't be easy but then again, countering any of the top Masters is never (nor should it be) easy). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tapdancer Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 Suggest everybody listens to latest Arcane Reservoir podcast. A measured response to Riva from three highly skilled Resser players. They all acknowledge she is good but nobody thinks she is remotely game breaking. I've faced her twice competitively, first time was a shock, second time I was prepared and she was not a problem to deal with. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Mouse Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 I don't think she's gamebreaking - in the same way pre cuddle Levi wasn't game breaking. But I guess the question is whether she is a little bit too good and if the game (as a whole) would be better if she wasn't quite so safe when attacking and able to deal quite so much damage that you can't avoid. I've only played her once, and I won, but only by ignoring Reva. Dealing with her was simply too much trouble than she was worth and I won because I managed to kill 3 models with papa loco. Her closest analogue is Raspy - who has significant caveats compared to Reva for attacking through her nodes. The fact that Revas nodes cannot be removed without specific models or abilities is another big issue with her attacks through them being so good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huntroll Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said: I like how you used both "whining" and "crying" to describe how people you don't agree with communicate their opinions - always a good strategy to foster discussion. I also like how you apparently haven't played with nor against Reva yet offer an adamant opinion on her I'm guessing that your meta is being dominated By Lilith? I suggest posting a thread about how to counter her - there's quite a few ways (it won't be easy but then again, countering any of the top Masters is never (nor should it be) easy). I like how you come to quick conclusions ignoring the fact that proxying is also an option. And my meta is not dominated by Lilith, but one of our best players mains her and Pandora and I usually struggle against him, but that's mostly due to his skills and the fact that I mainly play Nico and McMourning and neither of them is too good at those matchups. I actually managed to make him concede with Lilith when I proxied Reva against him, but that was due to some hilarous damage flips in a row (Red Joker, then triple severes on a negative flip) resulting in two dead Teddies at turn 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicFOX Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 <MODHAT> I like how people in this thread are going to remember to be nice to each other when posting. </MODHAT> 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengt Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 3 hours ago, Adran said: normal boards that are full of Ht2 los blocking terrain Is this really common? Most of the local terrain is houses, hills and forests that are taller than 2" (and thus get Ht 3+) and scatter terrain that is about 1" tall (and get Ht 1). There are some pieces that are suitable as Ht 2 but not a lot. Pretty much all of it started it's life as 40K or WHFB terrain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 9 minutes ago, Bengt said: Is this really common? Most of the local terrain is houses, hills and forests that are taller than 2" (and thus get Ht 3+) and scatter terrain that is about 1" tall (and get Ht 1). There are some pieces that are suitable as Ht 2 but not a lot. Pretty much all of it started it's life as 40K or WHFB terrain. Our Club has a lot of Ht 2 terrain in the form of Wilderness huts and so forth. We also have a lot of High walls, and and low bushes for trees. A lot of the 1 story MDF buildings that don't have sloped roofs also seem Ht 2. My games may be atypical, but Ht 2 is not rare where I play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goret Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 (edited) If this can help somewhat, i played with Nico in a tournament last week-end against Reva which ended 6-2 for Nico. (Reva, vincent, anna, 3 shield bearers and ubume). I produced my corpses behind a building out of LOS of Reva. I lured/killed her corpse candles as soon as they came close. I made sure not getting my models killed (like take your meds with a nurse and recalled a belle with sybelle) and played to my strat and schemes which were breakthrough and exhaust there forces, the strat was headhunter. I picked up the only head that dropped (from one of my models) and recalled the belle that picked the head up with Sybelle to avoid here standing next to a corpse marker. Maybe the strat was not the best for Reva, but i played defensively not giving her corpses by killing unnecessary models and trying to keep mine alive and made sure i get my points on the s&s. Granted, there was no Emissary with double shards so i can't comment on that. What i took from the only game i ever saw her in action, if she hasn't got a corpses up the field to attack through, she isn't that much of a threat unless she charges in. It's nice to have an option to remove corpses, 40mm or 50mm bases can stand on markers to prevent LOS to them and well keep away as much as possible from corpses... Edit: If 2 of your models are standing 2" apart, when the first model dies and you place the corpse marker on the opposite side, the second model is now more than 3" away from the corpse marker and is "safe", atl east from long range attacks. Edited September 21, 2016 by Goret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheJoyInGaming Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 4 hours ago, Adran said: Our Club has a lot of Ht 2 terrain in the form of Wilderness huts and so forth. We also have a lot of High walls, and and low bushes for trees. A lot of the 1 story MDF buildings that don't have sloped roofs also seem Ht 2. My games may be atypical, but Ht 2 is not rare where I play. This is typical of what i do for terrain height as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheJoyInGaming Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 46 minutes ago, Goret said: If this can help somewhat, i played with Nico in a tournament last week-end against Reva which ended 6-2 for Nico. (Reva, vincent, anna, 3 shield bearers and ubume). I produced my corpses behind a building out of LOS of Reva. I lured/killed her corpse candles as soon as they came close. I made sure not getting my models killed (like take your meds with a nurse and recalled a belle with sybelle) and played to my strat and schemes which were breakthrough and exhaust there forces, the strat was headhunter. I picked up the only head that dropped (from one of my models) and recalled the belle that picked the head up with Sybelle to avoid here standing next to a corpse marker. Maybe the strat was not the best for Reva, but i played defensively not giving her corpses by killing unnecessary models and trying to keep mine alive and made sure i get my points on the s&s. Granted, there was no Emissary with double shards so i can't comment on that. What i took from the only game i ever saw her in action, if she hasn't got a corpses up the field to attack through, she isn't that much of a threat unless she charges in. It's nice to have an option to remove corpses, 40mm or 50mm bases can stand on markers to prevent LOS to them and well keep away as much as possible from corpses... Just a couple of questions for clarification: 1. What upgrades did Reva take? 2. What was your crew list? Please and thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goret Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 I had Nico with undertaker, love thy master, and maniacal laugh, mortimer with corpse bloat, sybelle with not too banged up, the vulture, 3 belles and a nurse. (summoned 2 necropunks, 2 punk zombies full health discarding an additional corpse token each time and focused on giving my models fast. She had guises of death, blood mark and not sure about the third one. Vincent had deal with death. (i edited my first post so quick reminder : Edit: If 2 of your models are standing 2" apart, when the first model dies and you place the corpse marker on the opposite side, the second model is now more than 3" away from the corpse marker and is "safe", atl east from long range attacks. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Mouse Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 Naturally you'll have a relatively easier time with someone who can get rid of corpse markers. In fact other summoners are probably a hard counter to Reva. If I play Asami I will love all the extra flicker those markers will get me, and it will shut down her attacks. But if you aren't playing someone who can gobble up those corpse markers, you basically cannot stop her attacks other than avoiding large portions of the board. edit: and I guess this is my main issue. Many masters in the game simply have no way of dealing with Reva, and can at best ignore her and large parts of the board. Reva proponents keep saying she's squishy - she isn't that squishy and anyway, does that really matter when she can be effective being barely out of her deployment zone? Doesn't matter how squishy you are when you can attack well past the centre line at the edge of your deployment. It isn't a case of her having favourable match ups. It's a case of many masters and crews being able to do nothing to stop her smacking them half way across the board. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheJoyInGaming Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 @Goret Thank you. Hope you won! It appears that Blood Mark will find its niche in the delivery of major threats and beaters like Rogue Necromancy and Izamu while slightly mitigating the need for corpse markers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddywhack Posted September 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 2 hours ago, Goret said: If this can help somewhat, i played with Nico in a tournament last week-end against Reva which ended 6-2 for Nico. (Reva, vincent, anna, 3 shield bearers and ubume). Yeah. Oddly enough I think Nico is the best master to counter Reva. Other Resurrectionists can also cause her trouble just because Muahhaha is available for any master, but Nico will absolutely love facing Reva. He is pretty much the best hard counter to her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddywhack Posted September 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 55 minutes ago, Manic Mouse said: edit: and I guess this is my main issue. Many masters in the game simply have no way of dealing with Reva, and can at best ignore her and large parts of the board. Reva proponents keep saying she's squishy - she isn't that squishy and anyway, does that really matter when she can be effective being barely out of her deployment zone? Doesn't matter how squishy you are when you can attack well past the centre line at the edge of your deployment. It isn't a case of her having favourable match ups. It's a case of many masters and crews being able to do nothing to stop her smacking them half way across the board. This is what I am feeling too at the moment. That 18" range really may be the biggest issue. I really like her (though she is a bit straightforward), but I don't want to turn other players off when they feel completely smashed each game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solkan Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 9 hours ago, Manic Mouse said: I don't think she's gamebreaking - in the same way pre cuddle Levi wasn't game breaking. But I guess the question is whether she is a little bit too good and if the game (as a whole) would be better if she wasn't quite so safe when attacking and able to deal quite so much damage that you can't avoid. I've only played her once, and I won, but only by ignoring Reva. Dealing with her was simply too much trouble than she was worth and I won because I managed to kill 3 models with papa loco. Her closest analogue is Raspy - who has significant caveats compared to Reva for attacking through her nodes. The fact that Revas nodes cannot be removed without specific models or abilities is another big issue with her attacks through them being so good. One of the important things about Reva is that the "and LoS" requirement for Strength of the Fallen is supposed to be a limitation, not just filler words on the card. How much Ht3 or taller blocking terrain exists in your area, compared to the amount of Ht2 blocking terrain? If Lord Chompy Bits (Ht4) shows up on your table, does he have line of sight across the entire table? So please describe the scenery on your table, paying attention to the Ht values of the blocking terrain and how much terrain is present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrella Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 I'm suprised people are calling huts and such ht2 terrain as well, surely those things are about the height of a person on a horse, and thus should be at least ht3, no trees or such either? I don't think it's a stretch that there should be terrain that blocks line of sight for every model on the map at least? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogmantra Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 On terrain: imo I think if you don't have physically large terrain then you should probably ignore the "real height in inches = Ht stat" and define terrain Ht in a way that's easy to remember and includes a wider range of terrain than Ht 1 & 2. As solkan says, the line of sight requirement should be coming up, and imo if you're playing on a board where any given model can see over basically all the terrain, you're sort of bypassing the whole point of having terrain. On Reva more generally: only played against her once. Not enough experience to say more about it, but I would also add that I would imagine the skill level of people playing her is slightly higher than the average Malifaux player right now, since the people who bought her or RoF got it from Gencon and are therefore probably bigger fans of the game than average, and therefore play it more and are probably a bit better. It's a very soft train of causation but it's not a stretch to imagine it might play a part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ringsnake Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 My third recent game ever was 35SS against her, and when my opponent said, "Lets just do a 35 for fun" I figured he would just do the battle box, so that's what I had, the McMourning starter, though my opponent was nice enough to spot me some canine remains to summon. He had Reva, crooligans, corpse candles, Bette, belles, and uh... Stuff. I was able to mess with him a little by investing some soulstones and cheats into Man's Best Friend to take his corpse markers away, and it was a Canine Remains that nearly finished her off thanks to a combo of injection, ability to charge poisoned models for 1AP, and the dog miraculously surviving long enough to be dosed with halucinogens. It was just about a perfect setup and she still survived and I still got curb stomped. Were there things I could have done better? Yeah, almost certainly, but to feel like I was doing an OK job of playing, and still ended up 7-1 VP by the bottom of the fourth was frustrating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddywhack Posted September 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 1 hour ago, ringsnake said: My third recent game ever was 35SS against her, and when my opponent said, "Lets just do a 35 for fun" I figured he would just do the battle box, so that's what I had, the McMourning starter, though my opponent was nice enough to spot me some canine remains to summon. I would say that playing at 35SS is never going to give you a great experience. If you had had a full list, would you have felt any better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheJoyInGaming Posted September 21, 2016 Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 1 hour ago, solkan said: One of the important things about Reva is that the "and LoS" requirement for Strength of the Fallen is supposed to be a limitation, not just filler words on the card. How much Ht3 or taller blocking terrain exists in your area, compared to the amount of Ht2 blocking terrain? If Lord Chompy Bits (Ht4) shows up on your table, does he have line of sight across the entire table? So please describe the scenery on your table, paying attention to the Ht values of the blocking terrain and how much terrain is present. Though this wasn't directed at me i'll describe my usual table set up. I generally have about 60-70% of the board covered. Of that i generally have about a third comprised of scatter terrain and low walls of ht 2 or shorter. Another third i generally have to be structures and dense forests which are all blocking and ht3 or taller. The last third is generally severe terrain (unless i have alot of dense, then i may have a portion be more structures.) After terrain is put out we also make sure to do a once over and make sure that there are no obvious issues of firing lanes or an area where there is too little or too much terrain. I think i have a good variety of terrain in both typing and height and have only one instance that jumps out where after a game we had to have a discussion about terrain (I was playing Pandora with alot of incorporeal models and there was alot of severe terrain). Reva was designed to both see and be seen by a greater count of models and areas of the board due to her ht of 3. I also think that adjusting terrain because of her ht alone does a disservice to all models of ht 3 because that is the inherent pro and con of being taller. That last point being said i do not know if that is where you were going with this solkan, i can just see the conversation heading this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddywhack Posted September 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Astrella said: I'm suprised people are calling huts and such ht2 terrain as well, surely those things are about the height of a person on a horse, and thus should be at least ht3, no trees or such either? I don't think it's a stretch that there should be terrain that blocks line of sight for every model on the map at least? I do suspect this is still part of the problem with Reva (though as stated previously, she is horribly nasty). I think a lot of people do not have enough blocking terrain. One player mentioned she had control of 2/3 of the board, but claimed they had a lot of terrain. I would argue that if one model can see 2/3 of the table without moving then you are not using enough terrain - or not enough varying types of terrain. While I am on the side that she is overpowered (at least a little), I play with a lot of terrain (a lot). So while my opponents have complained, it hasn't been to the 'never playing her again' level just yet. Yet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjoewoo Posted September 22, 2016 Report Share Posted September 22, 2016 Hoorah for terrain becoming a discussion point--I knew those particular seeds of discussion would sprout! As a quick note, on a hyper technical level, if you have Ht 2 huts or buildings generally with flat roofs, you've defined a building or set of them for Malifaux's children and totems, because Ht 2 models cannot fit inside the door or the building even if they get into the door. One of the first things I look for in building terrain set ups (not actually building the pieces, but using pre-made stuff) is not letting someone see across the board or too much of it easily. Why? Because snipers exist, and it's no fun when Hanz on flat ground can snipe everyone in the deployment zone--virtually impossible to avoid if Hans sits at the 18" area against his board edge in standard deployment and he can see the enemy deployment zone. So, he loses LoS to the entire enemy deployment zone. As a compromise, he can see some usually, and if he or another sniper, e.g. Nino with From the Shadows, gets on a roof accessible building, he gets to see everything, but there's a movement cost. There'll be lots of scatter and more buildings to block LoS and easy movement to the center of the board, with terrain getting generally denser towards the center--a practical necessity with limited terrain items and good for where most of the action will likely be. You need Ht 3 + terrain so that a Ht 3 model with any form of ranged attack cannot abuse its position and because charging over terrain is a thing. Plus with how LoS rules work, it allows people to actually avoid a Ht 3 model, so even if I put a lot of scatter to mitigate extreme push tech and shooting, there will always be some larger structures near the center of the board so that there are ways to escape Ht 3 + models. I've developed this habit because many of my initial games as Seamus, someone who requires being able to duck out of LoS without a specific upgrade, were against Raspy and Seamus literally cannot escape Snow Storm's vision and by extension Raspy's turret-ing without Ht 3 blocking terrain. Worse part? Snow Storm just has to be within 12", so his 3" melee range doesn't really factor into things much, and engaging Snow Storm in melee is fairly brutal. I've listened to the particular Arcane Reservoir episode mentioned, and it's nice to hear high level players discussing their thoughts. A recurring theme they bring up regarding Reva is that compared to other Resser masters, she's a ranged beater sure, but that's pretty much all she does without supporting the crew like the other masters do. What are they getting at? Reva isn't quite one trick pony, but she's trading the normally expected support for the crew for the somewhat more consistent, high damage track fighting ability--one of the guys actually brings up that Kirai can match the damage track but also brings a host of support abilities to her crew outside of summoning additional models. Something they all noted was that Reva is very squishy. One of the casters noted he's been purposefully playing aggressively, and has lost her because you go in, attempt your attacks, and can attempt to jump away to ~10" of space, but if they attempt to go for her you don't really have survivability beyond a standard Df 5, good Wp 7, and SS. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddywhack Posted September 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2016 3 hours ago, benjoewoo said: Something they all noted was that Reva is very squishy. One of the casters noted he's been purposefully playing aggressively, and has lost her because you go in, attempt your attacks, and can attempt to jump away to ~10" of space, but if they attempt to go for her you don't really have survivability beyond a standard Df 5, good Wp 7, and SS. Sooooo... he's been trying to get her killed by purposely over extending her and so she is squishy? Not sure I can buy that argument. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjoewoo Posted September 22, 2016 Report Share Posted September 22, 2016 I wouldn't say he's trying to get her killed. He's playing her aggressively using the charge upgrade. The other two casters play her with the pseudo from the shadows candle upgrade. All three feel she's better off being more conservative and playing with the pseudo from the shadows candle upgrade. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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