Charges, Movement, and alt ways to charge

[KrazyIvan]

I discussion going on AWP prompted me to seek some answers here. Questions:

1. When you take the Charge action, must you move directly towards the target in the same manner as Push? Or, can you make whatever direct you like so long as you end up engaged.
2. If you declare a Charge but don't actually move (assume that you have a rule that allows you to charge while engaged) is the Charge valid?
3. A quote from the conversation " As a note according to the description of the Cg stat it is the distance you move towards a target. So you can't actually charge in any direction. ". Does that impact how a Charge is supposed to work?

So, for the first question I'm mostly thinking about the Strongarm, Misaki, and Von Schill who have Charge-centric abilities. Can you, in fact, use Augmented Jump to charge a model you already engaged with, and jump over to the other side of it (so that you can re-position yourself)?

For the second question assume that Taelor has WTM up and Ramos summons a Spider in base contact with her. Can she Charge it, move 0", then take her attacks? What Ramos summons 3 Spiders and boxes in her base? Can she Charge any of those models?

 

[Kadeton]

P. 21 is a flavor-text description of what the Cg stat means. In a similar vein, the Wds stat's description immediately below it reads "This is the amount of damage a model can suffer before being killed," but I don't think anyone would use that to argue that healing is irrelevant to a model's survival.

The rules for the (2) Charge Action (p. 39) do not have a 'towards' requirement. Those are the rules you should follow when charging. Charge any direction you like, as long as you end up engaged with the target.

[Paddywhack]

9 hours ago, Sissi said:

P. 21:

"Charge (Cg): A model performing the charge action moves up to this far TOWARDS its target [...]"

Thats what the conversation is about. So actually you have to charge towards the target and katadder isnt right here. I have to say that I overlooked this all the time playing, too. 

I don't have my large rulebook, but the definition of a charge you need is page 39 of the small rulebook. This section describes general actions and how they work. This is the exact wording for a charge if they were to print it on a card. As stated above by several others, the only restriction is a straight line and up to it Cg stat. Nothing else. You are free to charge off to the side as long as you end engaged with your charge target and you move in straight line.

[Artiee]

17 minutes ago, Thimblesage said:

 

Do 'interrupts' end or break charge action? There are several 'interrupts' in most Wargaming and sometimes they break or end the current models action but other times they do not.

Case in point, if I charge a model and enter/end in hazardous terrain, would that break my models charge action? In addition, if not, when would I resolve the damage flip? If I had a 1 wound model and charged into combat, would I immediately die before making my two Ml attacks?

 

Another example, does falling break a charge action? If a model charged off a cliff;

 

1.   Would that end the charge because it’s a “Change in direction?

2.   Would it end the action because I ‘fell’ and had to immediately take the damage?

3.   If not, when would I take the damage? Would I resolve the charge action or would I have to plant myself, flip for damage, and then continue the charge?

 FYI:  Hard to read with the black font.

You take the hazardous terrain test as soon as you enter the terrain.  If you had one wound left and take dmg you would die

1. No..
2. No.
3. You take damage as soon as you fall.  If you are alive, you continue with the charge movement.

[sharpobjects]

On 5/14/2016 at 4:05 AM, Sissi said:

P. 21:

"Charge (Cg): A model performing the charge action moves up to this far TOWARDS its target [...]"

Thats what the conversation is about. So actually you have to charge towards the target and katadder isnt right here. I have to say that I overlooked this all the time playing, too. 

 

You are incorrect. The rules for charge is on page 39 of the big book. 

Page 21 is a brief explanation of each stat on a models card. I understand that within that explanation the word 'towards" was used but that was just an english word used to describe where the model goes when it is performing a charge action. It was not used in that sentence as a game term.

They probably should have used the word "move" instead so that it perfectly matches the actual rules explanation of a Charge on page 39, Move this model up to it's Cg in a straight line. 

You do not have to move directly toward the target with a Charge Action.

 

[katadder]

on 1 it doesnt say towards or even directly towards.

 

page 39:

(2) Charge: Target a model within LOS. Move this model up to its Cg in a straight line. This model must end the move with the target model within its engagement range or this Action may not be taken.

 

So yes you can charge any direction as long as its a straight line and you end up engaged with the target.

and this also answers question 2. Yes you can charge those spiders as it says upto your Cg.

[Myyrä]

11 minutes ago, Sissi said:

P. 21:

"Charge (Cg): A model performing the charge action moves up to this far TOWARDS its target [...]"

Thats what the conversation is about. So actually you have to charge towards the target and katadder isnt right here. I have to say that I overlooked this all the time playing, too. 

Irrelevant, because the actual description of the action is found on page 39 like katadder said.

[solkan]

53 minutes ago, Thimblesage said:

Unfortunately no, this is not possible and here's why.

Here are the two rules that resolve this point.

PG. 48 of the rules, "•Models may not charge while
engaged."

PG. 39 of the rules, "This model must end the move with the target model within its engagement
range or this Action may not be taken."

 

So unfortunately you can only charge when you are not engaged and you must end a charge action by being engaged otherwise you cannot take the charge action. 

 

The action in question ("Welcome to Malifaux!") on the model in question (Taelor) contains a statement allowing it to charge while engaged:

Quote

(0) "Welcome to Malifaux!": This model gains the following Condition until the end of the Turn: "Welcome to Malifaux: If an enemy model is summoned in LoS and within range to be Charged, this model may immediately Charge the summoned model. This Charge may be made even if this model is engaged. If more than one model is summoned within range and LoS at the same time, this model may only Charge one of them."

That's why the whole question of "I can't move, but I'm already in melee range of the model I want to charge.  Is that good enough?" comes up.  The model's starting with permission to perform the charge even though it might already be in engagement range (and thus engaged).

 

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, Sissi said:

P. 21:

"Charge (Cg): A model performing the charge action moves up to this far TOWARDS its target [...]"

Thats what the conversation is about. So actually you have to charge towards the target and katadder isnt right here. I have to say that I overlooked this all the time playing, too. 

That is not what the charge action says. The word "towards" isn't mentioned in the action description, just move in a straight line.

[MR TORGUE]

So as shown in my amazing paint diagram - could model A charge model B but end slightly past the model and in turn engage models C and D?
Further would model A have to end the charge as soon as she starts to be considered moving away from the intended target?

Or would model A have to charge directly towards model B?

 

[MR TORGUE]

P.S. Your welcome!

[Fetid Strumpet]

Your diagram is legal. There is nothing in the charge rule itself about getting closer to the target. Only that you must move in a straight line and end engaged with the target. Your drawing satisfies those conditions.

[MR TORGUE]

45 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Your diagram is legal. There is nothing in the charge rule itself about getting closer to the target. Only that you must move in a straight line and end engaged with the target. Your drawing satisfies those conditions.

Phew, thats how i've been playing all this time. If it was simply a straight line directly towards the target it would ruin the tactical prestige of malifaux. Plus the Viks would then be rubbish

[Mia.W]

On 14. 5. 2016 at 7:46 AM, KrazyIvan said:

...
2. If you declare a Charge but don't actually move (assume that you have a rule that allows you to charge while engaged) is the Charge valid?

...
For the second question assume that Taelor has WTM up and Ramos summons a Spider in base contact with her. Can she Charge it, move 0", then take her attacks? What Ramos summons 3 Spiders and boxes in her base? Can she Charge any of those models?

 

 

On 14. 5. 2016 at 7:53 AM, katadder said:

...
So yes you can charge any direction as long as its a straight line and you end up engaged with the target.

and this also answers question 2. Yes you can charge those spiders as it says upto your Cg.

2

Any other ideas on this Charge action without move?

Because FAQ says:
25) Q: If a model moves (or is Pushed, Falls, is Placed, etc) 0” (zero inches), does it count as having moved?
A: No. Same answer for Pushing, Falling, Placement, etc.

And in the description of charge it says (p. 39):
...This model then takes two Range  Attack Actions...

So I am not sure if the Attack actions just follow the movement and can happen even without the movement. Or if the movement is the necessary condition for the upcoming Attack actions (and if there is no movement, there cannot be any attack).

As the result, Taelor can still charge the model in the base contact with her (f.e. she will move a little bit away from the target), but I am curious how to play this situation correctly.

[Adran]

I think you are right, you need to end the move in the ml range, and if you move 0 then you don't move. And if you don't move, you can't end the movement. So if you've prevented the model from moving (Say by surrounding it with models in base contact), then it can't charge. 

 

 

[Flib Jib]

 

Do 'interrupts' end or break charge action? There are several 'interrupts' in most Wargaming and sometimes they break or end the current models action but other times they do not.

 

 

Case in point, if I charge a model and enter/end in hazardous terrain, would that break my models charge action? In addition, if not, when would I resolve the damage flip? If I had a 1 wound model and charged into combat, would I immediately die before making my two Ml attacks?

 

 

Another example, does falling break a charge action? If a model charged off a cliff;

 

 

1.   Would that end the charge because it’s a “Change in direction?

2.   Would it end the action because I ‘fell’ and had to immediately take the damage?

3.   If not, when would I take the damage? Would I resolve the charge action or would I have to plant myself, flip for damage, and then continue the charge?

[Flib Jib]

On 6/1/2016 at 4:32 AM, Adran said:

I think you are right, you need to end the move in the ml range, and if you move 0 then you don't move. And if you don't move, you can't end the movement. So if you've prevented the model from moving (Say by surrounding it with models in base contact), then it can't charge. 

 

 

I think you're correct. Here is an entry from the FAQ's to support.

 

25) Q: If a model moves (or is Pushed, Falls, is Placed, etc) 0” (zero inches), does it count as having moved?
A: No. Same answer for Pushing, Falling, Placement, etc.

[Mia.W]

On 7. 6. 2016 at 2:55 AM, Thimblesage said:

Unfortunately no, this is not possible and here's why.

Here are the two rules that resolve this point.

PG. 48 of the rules, "•Models may not charge while
engaged."

PG. 39 of the rules, "This model must end the move with the target model within its engagement
range or this Action may not be taken."

 

So unfortunately you can only charge when you are not engaged and you must end a charge action by being engaged otherwise you cannot take the charge action. 

 

 

Taelor can charge even while engaged thanks to "Welcome to Malifaux".

[Flib Jib]

On 6/1/2016 at 4:07 AM, Mia.W said:

 

Because FAQ says:
25) Q: If a model moves (or is Pushed, Falls, is Placed, etc) 0” (zero inches), does it count as having moved?
A: No. Same answer for Pushing, Falling, Placement, etc.

And in the description of charge it says (p. 39):
...This model then takes two Range  Attack Actions...

So I am not sure if the Attack actions just follow the movement and can happen even without the movement. Or if the movement is the necessary condition for the upcoming Attack actions (and if there is no movement, there cannot be any attack).

As the result, Taelor can still charge the model in the base contact with her (f.e. she will move a little bit away from the target), but I am curious how to play this situation correctly.

Unfortunately no, this is not possible and here's why.

Here are the two rules that resolve this point.

PG. 48 of the rules, "•Models may not charge while
engaged."

PG. 39 of the rules, "This model must end the move with the target model within its engagement
range or this Action may not be taken."

 

So unfortunately you can only charge when you are not engaged and you must end a charge action by being engaged otherwise you cannot take the charge action. 

 

[Sissi]

P. 21:

"Charge (Cg): A model performing the charge action moves up to this far TOWARDS its target [...]"

Thats what the conversation is about. So actually you have to charge towards the target and katadder isnt right here. I have to say that I overlooked this all the time playing, too.