Rat Bomb

[Fictor]

Hi!

Some crews has snipers for combat that, but what we can do?

The combo is 3 Malifaux rats + Obedient Wretch for throw a Rat and get a Rat king to sacrifice and get Rat + Rat Catcher, for 10ss you have 8 Activations

For example, last game, my oponent play that with Vicktoria's and I play Rasputina, I have 7 miniatures, he did the combo in a Square and didnt move anything more, when he finish I have activated all my crew, and of course eat the Victoria's rocket

[Adran]

What did you have in your crew? One possible solution is rasputina can put blasts in the opponents deployment zone on the first turn. 

[Bengt]

Any crew can have snipers, Hans and Freikorps Trappers are mercenaries.

Against the Victorias it's also important to spread out your models so they can't kill all lot in one go.

[Fictor]

Na the problem is the op of this shit bomb, I win the game 10 - 0 xD xD xD Viki's didn't are problem for me, but didn't like that op things.

And if the enemy didn't are really bad you can't blast his combo 1 turn... the Bombo plays really far only for activations.

[Mxbedlam]

Very little is OP in this game. There are lots of good tricks but they are tricks you learn to either out manuever or counteract. Viks, either bait them out and take them down as they are made of paper, Levi Kill his anchors, Som'er Blast his group of gremlins out before he can heal them back up. Most of the time you only get caught out by an aggressive tricksy move one or two times before you figure out how to play around it.

[Bengt]

If the rat thing didn't help your opponent at all, why do you think it's over powered?

[Myyrä]

There is no question about whether rat factory is op or not. (It is.) The real question is: So what?

[Adran]

there are several ways to build your crew to create a lot ox extra activations for your side. 

Ramos can summon 3 spiders and an electrical creation in his turn, and the last spider can activate and then create a swarm, so you've created 5 extra activations that turn. 

If you know that your opponent is going to out activate you, then you just have to play your turn knowing  that they will get to move several people without you being able to retaliate. Yes, it is possible to deploy the Viks crew so that you are not going to be able to get line of sight on any of his crew with your ice mirrors, but if that is the case, then you ought to be able to hide all your crew from the Viks activation. 

Its not that hard to have a huge threat range with Frozen hearted models. Decembers acolytes can deploy from the shadows. The Blessed of december is a fairly fast moving model with leap. Snow storm and the Ice Golem can both move their crew about. (Ice Golem Tossing an Ice Gamin who then moves somewhere does give a huge placement of an ice mirror). 

[Fictor]

In my opinion sobreactivate it's op because if only you can Activate models you can hit when you want out conunter actack with your glass canon like Howard/Vikis/Killjoy... Etc 

And for a normal turn, hit with these models are -1 or -2 good enemy miniatures

For exanple vs Res me with Ramos, do + whit Movile Toolkit + Push with Angelica + reactivate with Brass Arachnid + Discard IE = first turn chargue vs Seamus and do 2 Flurry = 6 + Atacks. And for sure kill the master, go turn 2 out master its a lose game xD

[KoboldThief]

If your opponent is being that static id just use turn one to move into position and start throwing Ice Pillars any direction you think his "main" crew would be heading. Raspy and the Wendigo can effectively quarantine a good section of most tables. If you deploy second and can get within reach, a December acolyte can focus, harpoon gun and cheat the severe to just remove the Wretch as well.

Against the Viks specifically, id also make sure you have your models in range of a sub zero upgrade. Chances are youre going to be charged at some point, but at least this way you can limit your opponent to just the one attack action.

[Paddywhack]

14 hours ago, Myyrä said:

There is no question about whether rat factory is op or not. (It is.) The real question is: So what?

It makes for a negative play experience and can make the game as a whole seem unbalanced. If that is your first interaction with the game you may decide its not for you, when in reality it is only a small part of the game. This means fewer players and the wrong interpretation of Malifaux in general. 

Just because you don't care, doesn't mean it doesn't affect others and potentially the growth of the community. 

It's not impossible to play against, but it certainly is not a fun game for most. For someone who might be lucky to get a game or two a month, this kind of experience can ruin a player's (new or old) desire to keep playing or buying Malifaux.

[solkan]

25 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

It makes for a negative play experience and can make the game as a whole seem unbalanced. If that is your first interaction with the game you may decide its not for you, when in reality it is only a small part of the game. This means fewer players and the wrong interpretation of Malifaux in general. 

Are you trying to claim that activation combos and controlling the activation sequence isn't part of the Malifaux rules?  Wouldn't that be like claiming that summoning and burial manipulation isn't an important part of the rules?

25 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

Just because you don't care, doesn't mean it doesn't affect others and potentially the growth of the community. 

It's not impossible to play against, but it certainly is not a fun game for most. For someone who might be lucky to get a game or two a month, this kind of experience can ruin a player's (new or old) desire to keep playing or buying Malifaux.

And a hand full of aces and twos can really ruin a new player's desire to keep playing Malifaux if someone hasn't explained to them how to use focus and defensive stance.  It's the same sort of haphazard occurrence.

The problem I have with this discussion is that it starts off with the claim that something is overpowered, and follows it up with "Of course, my opponent still lost and I crushed them."  Which means that it wasn't overpowered enough to make a difference.  In other words, it's the sort of thing filed under "I don't like this interaction, I demand other people stop using it rather than dealing it."  That opinion is worse for the game than the mechanic under discussion.

 

[angyi]

2 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

It's not impossible to play against, but it certainly is not a fun game for most.

Now, if you take a beginner vs beginner game, this combo wouldn't likely come out at all. It's not a box vs box or a two-player starter thing. On the other hand, experienced players wouldn't use it at demo games either. So if "that is your first interaction with the game", something is mucked up. Give me a wargame of your choice, and I'll make a list that a moderately experienced player can use to discourage newcomers for life.
Second, activation control in itself doesn't mean anything if you don't know how to capitalize on. Which also takes a somehow experienced player. Activation control is an important part of the game, but in my experience newcomers' first problems are like they get shot to pieces by Perdita etc. Which, I guess, doesn't mean shooting is OP.

[EnternalVoid]

I would not call the "Rat Bomb" OP because of what OP means, IE Overpowered.  There is nothing overpowered about this combo as that would mean it breaks the game somehow.  Annoying or not fun to play against is a more valid statement but it is more of an opinion on what one is defining as the "Way" the game is suppose to play.  Bully in the last Edition was OP for Hamelin as he could easily make it so that no enemy model could attack him and your only chance was Condition removal but then he could just reapply it, and a lot of models had no chance of resisting him due to how SS worked *you flipped another card and added it to the total, meaning totals like 23+ were very possible*.  There was a reason they released an FAQ changing up Hamelin's rules before the end of that edition despite a new edition just being around the corner.

Now I will agree it can be a pretty strong tool and one that will catch not only new players but ones that are unfamiliar with it off guard.  But lets examine some elements of it real fast.  For the 3 Rats plus Wretch you are looking at a 10ss investment, IE One Fifth or 20% of your available SS.  It also can be disrupted by a Sniper of some sort thus reducing its output.  Even a December Acolyte can throw it off if you deploy second.  So they will have to take a bit of care and might have to place it in a spot that might mean they will be slow to join in the action.  Once used you are unlikely to have that many activations again the next turn, so you are likely only to have to worry about the whole chain once.  It also only pads activations, it generates no extra benefits like extra movement, repositioning of other models, additional attacks or such.  Basically it just makes models and actions.  So no direct buff to models like Levi or the Viks.

If facing it and lacking the elements to disrupt it I would suggest looking the first turn as a preemptive step.  You can figure out the threat range of the Viks by looking at the elements in his list and figure where you can advance that are safe first turn.  You can also set up a net to punish him if he enters to recklessly or to early as well.  Traps and tricks might not be avoidable completely but that does not mean you have to walk right into it praying for the best, measures can be taken to try and minimize issues.

[Math Mathonwy]

On ‎19‎.‎3‎.‎2016 at 3:44 AM, angyi said:

Give me a wargame of your choice, and I'll make a list that a moderately experienced player can use to discourage newcomers for life.

Pulp City.

 

[Sissi]

Maybe you want to check out this wrap up of the winner of the Adepticon this year. Have a look at the lists he is facing. And the "lists" hes using. 

That might change your mind ;-) 

 

[Mxbedlam]

Yeah, I've talked to quite a few people now that have faced this kind of list and its very very difficult to beat. Dropping a turn one Killjoy and Vik in your opponent's deployment zone is just brutal and there's not really much you can do in a single activation to weather it. In that report most of his games were finished in 3 rounds because the opponent was simply out of models. If this kind of list catches on, I doubt it will be good for the Malifaux tournament scene. Chances are we will see a fix here soon, possibly making rats unhireable or rat kings only when Hamelin.

[Fog]

There are several theoretical ways to deal with this issue.  

December list where EVERYTHING has Sub Zero.  A single attack from each model isn't getting the job done.

Ramos can use spiders to block charge lanes and limit the potential impact of the bomb.  Reactivated Fast Langston threats 28" with two attacks which can kill a Vik.  You might be tossing the model away, but it jams up the board and can force them to 'play fair.'  If you can position to avoid the alpha, you can take over activation control on turn two.

Colette can spend her first activation getting Envy into position.  Envy then can focus, hopefully hit the trigger for blast damage, and blow up the rats before they matter.  Can also work with a Silent One or Snowstorm.


Honestly, I find this particular interaction obnoxious as heck but it bothers me less than things like Glowy McTavish, TurboLoco and Papa-in-a-Box.

[trikk]

Whats Turbo-Loco?

[admiralvorkraft]

If I had to guess, it's a Jack Daw alpha strike. Which only seems like an issue to me because JD can also take the rat engine.

[Fog]

Zoraida can get Loco 12" upfield before he activates, then Trixie can get him another 12", then he can blow up twice.  Activation control isn't too hard to get with gremlins.

With Jack Daw you can give him 7" of movement before he activates, pop another 4" in from Lust (using her zero, and she's great to have on hand for many reasons, not just this trick) AND give him fast, plus his pulses gain an inch.  It may not sound like much but it increases the area by a deceptively large amount.  He can walk 4", then explode twice with a 5" aura for a threat of 20".  Alternatively, if you can get him into a right proper position without walking, you can give Loco Armor +2 from a nurse (another all around all star tormented model), then have him explode 3 times instead.  It's bad news bears.  If you want Loco to be area denial instead of a nuclear missile then you can give him +2 Speed instead and have the bastard walk 25", or 31" if you pop oathkeeper.  He's guaranteed to be in an obnoxious spot.  If you want, you can rat engine and killjoy on top of that so that when Loco kills thrice his soulstone cost and goes out, Killjoy steps in to eat face.

 

[Freman]

That is a nasty combination. Thinking about it, Jack can also use his attack to put Guillotine Injustice on a friendly Henchman or Enforcer (like Alyce or Strongarm). Its negatives don't affect non-minion/peons so all it does is make them Tormented, which is very useful for Jack.

[Paddywhack]

On 3/18/2016 at 4:27 PM, solkan said:

Are you trying to claim that activation combos and controlling the activation sequence isn't part of the Malifaux rules?  Wouldn't that be like claiming that summoning and burial manipulation isn't an important part of the rules?

And a hand full of aces and twos can really ruin a new player's desire to keep playing Malifaux if someone hasn't explained to them how to use focus and defensive stance.  It's the same sort of haphazard occurrence.

Yes, Activation control and learning in which order to activate models is a part of Malifaux, but the Ratjoy and variations takes that element completely out of the equation for one player. it turns an alternating activation game into an IgoUgo game. Even Wyrd admitted that too many chain activations were a bad thing for the game play and removed it in 2nd edition. Summoning and Burial are also somewhat limited in scope to help avoid this issue (though I agree that summoning isn't perfect yet and could use some tweaking in the next edition - so could burial and paralyze imo).

A handful of aces and twos is part of the game itself and can happen to either player on any round at any time. It also (hopefully) won't happen every turn. This is not different than rolling 1's too often, but most gamers wouldn't blame the game for that - thats part of the random nature of the game play involved. Facing a RatJoy army is not random or part of the normal Malifaux experience. It is a big fat NPE - often for both players (unless one really only cares about winning). It was this kind of thing in V1 that kept me out of the game honestly. 

Again - it's not impossible to beat if you know you are facing it and can plan accordingly, but even then it can be a very steep uphill battle. There are some good suggestions from Icemyn in this thread for possible fixes - after he won Adepticon using RatJoy.  

 

[solkan]

47 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

Yes, Activation control and learning in which order to activate models is a part of Malifaux, but the Ratjoy and variations takes that element completely out of the equation for one player. it turns an alternating activation game into an IgoUgo game. Even Wyrd admitted that too many chain activations were a bad thing for the game play and removed it in 2nd edition. Summoning and Burial are also somewhat limited in scope to help avoid this issue (though I agree that summoning isn't perfect yet and could use some tweaking in the next edition - so could burial and paralyze imo).

A handful of aces and twos is part of the game itself and can happen to either player on any round at any time. It also (hopefully) won't happen every turn. This is not different than rolling 1's too often, but most gamers wouldn't blame the game for that - thats part of the random nature of the game play involved. Facing a RatJoy army is not random or part of the normal Malifaux experience. It is a big fat NPE - often for both players (unless one really only cares about winning). It was this kind of thing in V1 that kept me out of the game honestly. 

Here are some problematic points:

1.  Use of the term "negative play experience", and then double down on it with the "unless one really only cares about winning" bit.  That's aside from the attempt to declare the thing you don't like as falling outside of "the normal Malifaux experience."

2.  You've posted on a thread two months after the last post, linking to another two month old thread.

So as far as I can tell, all you've added to the discussion is that you still feel the same now as you do two months ago, but with stronger language.

[Paddywhack]

Sorry - I thought there was notification saying someone had a recent post here and hadn't actually read this post in a while. I didn't see how old the last reply was, but I did want to reply to your post with follow up points as you too came across rather strong. No harm though - its all in an effort to make the game better. My apologies for upsetting you.