Metal Gamin Errata

[Adran]

From what we have heard about Gencon 2016, is that they are planning on some new upgrades for the factions. Following everything they have done since M2E started, when they sell the upgrade pack with all the new upgrades,, it will have any errata'd cards in it, just like Campagne upgrades this year had the errata'd Tannen and Blessed, and the Wave 2 arsenal packs had the errata'd wave 1 cards. 

[Math Mathonwy]

Updating PDFs would be an unearthly hassle people don't seem to fully recognize. I really hope that we have some option for getting updated cards but frankly this is still the best option.

If their publishing software is up to snuff, it shouldn't be.

Any other game system would either just compensate by releasing a new op model for each faction that you HAVE to buy in order to make the old OP stuff irrelevant (PP) or force you to buy unrelated products in order to get the upgraded rules for the stuff they didn't balance the first time (FFG)

I thought that PP just released some rather heavy errata to some extremely popular Casters causing a huge uproar?

[MagicGis]

Updating PDFs would be an unearthly hassle people don't seem to fully recognize. I really hope that we have some option for getting updated cards but frankly this is still the best option.

If their publishing software is up to snuff, it shouldn't be.

Any other game system would either just compensate by releasing a new op model for each faction that you HAVE to buy in order to make the old OP stuff irrelevant (PP) or force you to buy unrelated products in order to get the upgraded rules for the stuff they didn't balance the first time (FFG)

I thought that PP just released some rather heavy errata to some extremely popular Casters causing a huge uproar?

Updating PDFs would be an unearthly hassle people don't seem to fully recognize. I really hope that we have some option for getting updated cards but frankly this is still the best option.

If their publishing software is up to snuff, it shouldn't be.

Any other game system would either just compensate by releasing a new op model for each faction that you HAVE to buy in order to make the old OP stuff irrelevant (PP) or force you to buy unrelated products in order to get the upgraded rules for the stuff they didn't balance the first time (FFG)

I thought that PP just released some rather heavy errata to some extremely popular Casters causing a huge uproar?

 

Both of those points are completely true...

 

Also I think a lot of people are massively overprotective with their favorite gaming companies.  That others have bad business practise too is the worst justification ever for anything.

This gives a company the chance to distinguish themselves from the pack not sink to their level.

Otherwise we all soon can say... well still better than GW?

Removing a skill completely from a card has absolutely nothing to do with proper balancing and playtesting. Quite the opposite it basically admits that the former playtesting was a failure or not enough openly.

"Balancing" in a way that leaves an abuse in  aka Hoff while Cuddling the original theme and design is a weird route suggesting that it was rather a silent the cries shoot from the hip.

Also releasing a new version of something is completely different from an errata change of product.

In my country if we make a significant change to a product which is documented in the documents that come with it. All documents that describe the former version need to be updated and made available to former buyers for free ... aka pdfs here.

Honestly that is the bare minimum you should expect as a customer. Actually such changes should come with a description why they were made so the customer can understand the decision process better .

 

 

[RarerMonsters]

Updating PDFs would be an unearthly hassle people don't seem to fully recognize. I really hope that we have some option for getting updated cards but frankly this is still the best option.

If their publishing software is up to snuff, it shouldn't be.

It depends, updating the core files isn't but having to resubmit to every vendor who carries them and then get those updated files is an entirely different matter, especially for a small company.

 

Any other game system would either just compensate by releasing a new op model for each faction that you HAVE to buy in order to make the old OP stuff irrelevant (PP) or force you to buy unrelated products in order to get the upgraded rules for the stuff they didn't balance the first time (FFG)

I thought that PP just released some rather heavy errata to some extremely popular Casters causing a huge uproar?

Yeah, it's not their typical practice though.

"In my country if we make a significant change to a product which is documented in the documents that come with it. All documents that describe the former version need to be updated and made available to former buyers for free ... aka pdfs here."

They did. They released updated PDFs of cards and full errata documents for free on their website.

[Adran]

The PDF is available, for free, in the Errata section.

The playtest was public here, for several months. I don't think I remember anyone reporting doing protection of metal on a metal gamin during the playtest, so it could be that no one spotted it. 

I don't see how you can claim that removing hard to kill stops it being useful for Mei. Idon't think it actually has a huge effect on her original use for them. They can still be used as jumping points, and whilst they may die on average1 Ap faster now, they will still be dropping scrap for her to rail walk to. 

As someone that has spent a lot of time on the wyrd boards, I can say that I don't think they can be accused of shooting from the hip. There have been several calls for errata on several models. On occasion Wyrd agrees (nexus of power and Mechanical rider for example), and erratas them. Sometimes it says that it doesn't see it as a problem (rotten belles, there have been many complaints, and the designers have said they don;'t see it as a problem, but they will keep their eyes on it. I've not heard it for about a year now, and belle spam lists aren't winning everything). They have errata'd things that weren't causing an uproar on the board (Final debt). 

That all suggests to me that they are looking carefully at things, and not just jumping on what the internet says. 

Finally. The product you bought is still valid. You and your opponents are entitled to not play with errata if thats your choice. Wyrd will not launch a raid on your house just because you're not using the most up to date rules. 

[decker_cky]

I think the issue with Hoffman is that Hoffman isn't too good, and he was balanced at Ca8. Drop the Ca8, and Hoffman loses reliability that he was tested with, and you weaken a balanced master. 

[Math Mathonwy]

Removing a skill completely from a card has absolutely nothing to do with proper balancing and playtesting. Quite the opposite it basically admits that the former playtesting was a failure or not enough openly.

"Balancing" in a way that leaves an abuse in  aka Hoff while Cuddling the original theme and design is a weird route suggesting that it was rather a silent the cries shoot from the hip.

Also releasing a new version of something is completely different from an errata change of product.

In my country if we make a significant change to a product which is documented in the documents that come with it. All documents that describe the former version need to be updated and made available to former buyers for free ... aka pdfs here.

Honestly that is the bare minimum you should expect as a customer. Actually such changes should come with a description why they were made so the customer can understand the decision process better .

Like Adran says, I don't think anyone realized in the original playtesting that you could PoM the Gamin itself. Back then people hadn't yet realized to guard against these sorts of interactions.

 Hoff OTOH was playtested with the Gamin.

As for updating the PDFs with the errata - I'd say that's a pretty rare practice in gaming products. I wish it was more common but it most certainly isn't the industry standard.

It depends, updating the core files isn't but having to resubmit to every vendor who carries them and then get those updated files is an entirely different matter, especially for a small company.

 

I didn't realize that the PDFs are for sale in various places? I thought that they were only carried in the OneBookShelf (so WargamesVault and RPGNow and whatever their incarnations are)? I might very well be mistaken, though and in that case I understand and agree that you wouldn't want to do that too often.

[Rogue1]

Regarding belle spam not winning all of the competitions I am not sure that is a completely fair comparison.  The issue with the belles being CA8 is it makes them too reliable so you don't have to spam them to ensure the lures that you need go off.

Back on topic I am not too bent out of shape over the loss of HtK as most things that don't ignore armor don't have a minimum damage of greater than 3 anyway.  In their cost band many things don't even have a moderate of greater than 3.  So either way many models will still struggle to kill a metal gamin in less than 4 hits.

[paxmiles]

They were slow, pretty bad on offensive but at least resilient. Now it's gone. But it seems that 4ss cost justifies making them useless.

Useless? With updates they are still a 5ss model.

[tmod]

Updating PDFs would be an unearthly hassle people don't seem to fully recognize. I really hope that we have some option for getting updated cards but frankly this is still the best option.

If their publishing software is up to snuff, it shouldn't be.

Any other game system would either just compensate by releasing a new op model for each faction that you HAVE to buy in order to make the old OP stuff irrelevant (PP) or force you to buy unrelated products in order to get the upgraded rules for the stuff they didn't balance the first time (FFG)

I thought that PP just released some rather heavy errata to some extremely popular Casters causing a huge uproar?

 

Updating PDFs would be an unearthly hassle people don't seem to fully recognize. I really hope that we have some option for getting updated cards but frankly this is still the best option.

If their publishing software is up to snuff, it shouldn't be.

Any other game system would either just compensate by releasing a new op model for each faction that you HAVE to buy in order to make the old OP stuff irrelevant (PP) or force you to buy unrelated products in order to get the upgraded rules for the stuff they didn't balance the first time (FFG)

I thought that PP just released some rather heavy errata to some extremely popular Casters causing a huge uproar?

 

Both of those points are completely true...

 

Also I think a lot of people are massively overprotective with their favorite gaming companies.  That others have bad business practise too is the worst justification ever for anything.

This gives a company the chance to distinguish themselves from the pack not sink to their level.

Otherwise we all soon can say... well still better than GW?

Removing a skill completely from a card has absolutely nothing to do with proper balancing and playtesting. Quite the opposite it basically admits that the former playtesting was a failure or not enough openly.

"Balancing" in a way that leaves an abuse in  aka Hoff while Cuddling the original theme and design is a weird route suggesting that it was rather a silent the cries shoot from the hip.

Also releasing a new version of something is completely different from an errata change of product.

In my country if we make a significant change to a product which is documented in the documents that come with it. All documents that describe the former version need to be updated and made available to former buyers for free ... aka pdfs here.

Honestly that is the bare minimum you should expect as a customer. Actually such changes should come with a description why they were made so the customer can understand the decision process better .

 

 

This doesn't really make sense to me at all. How is Hoff abusive? He was balanced around Ca8, and I've never heard claims of Hoff being op. MG is basically a 4ss upgrade for him. How is Mei's theme cuddled? For Mei MG are just as useful, just different. They're situationally strong, just like 4ss models should be. The testing was open amd thorough, and even though there's been some slip ups it has resulted in probably the best balanced game on the market right now. Hardly something to get upset about! 

That said, it isna rather dramatic cuddle, with offensive and defensive capabilities both being hit pretty hard. I wonder if it wouldn't have been enough to add a stipulation tha PoM could only target other models. Then an MG couldn't buff itself, but two MG's could tag team for 8ss. Perhaps HtK had to go as well, considering most people would seem to ONLY EVER summon MGs with the Rider...

 

[Hunt.er]

What i don`t get is, that many in this discussion say "it doesn`t change much, that they loose H2K". If it`s true, if it doesn`t matter, than it shouldn`t be a problem to keep it on the card also.

If the matter is, that they could be summoned, than a change is needed that leeds to a negation of this fact by a restirction.

I thin no one really matters about the PoM stuff, so keep H2K, keep the change on PoM and fobidd the summoning via the Raider. Everyone should be able to live with that.

[Patzer]

The Rider summoning them has little to do with the removal of Hard to Kill. With the ability they took, for most models, two swings to kill; even with Armor +2, since they came in with two wounds. That is, Hard to Kill had only effect against the few models who ignore Armor. Something I would call a corner case.

So the removal of Hard to Kill must come from the fact that it made them too good of a straight up hire. With it removed, they still are the most defensive Gamin (by far), thus I believe they kept their role(s) and place in the faction(s) intact.

On a side note, it also makes the Effigys a bit better by comparison too since they are the only 4ss significant minions with Hard to Kill and Armor now. And that is a good thing, since they are Rare 1. 

[r4st4f4n]

The Rider summoning them has little to do with the removal of Hard to Kill. With the ability they took, for most models, two swings to kill; even with Armor +2, since they came in with two wounds.

Actually, you've just highlighted the reason why Mech Rider summoning and the loss of HtK are strongly tied together, while trying to say the opposite: it was unfair that a model summoned that easily, with -2Wds, didn't die from a 4Dg strike.

That said, now that they are more or less as resilient as a Steam Arachnid (which has Armor +1 vs. MG Armor +2, but also Df6 vs. MG Df5, and immunity to all Pulse Damage)
BUT, the Arachnid has better mobility (Wk5 + Unimpeded vs. MG Wk4, and Magnetism which is very situational, especially when you are the provider of Target Construct...), better Wp (Wp6 vs. MG Wp4), and two working effects (Latch on and Swarm together), would asking for a more usable PoM(which, the very opposite of Latch on that gets the opponent in positioning trouble, gets in trouble the user himself), or what I said in my previous post, really be so unreasonable?

[angyi]

The Metal Gamin isn't useless by any means, only it became superfluous. They are still playable, even solid in certain match-ups, but not owning any Metal Gamin doesn't affect your competitive edge any more. However I can hear all the Arcanist models cheer in the 4-5 SS range, which is very good for the game, after all. I'm a bit on the negative side only because I bought my second box of MG the day before they got errata'd

[MagicGis]

The Rider summoning them has little to do with the removal of Hard to Kill. With the ability they took, for most models, two swings to kill; even with Armor +2, since they came in with two wounds.

Actually, you've just highlighted the reason why Mech Rider summoning and the loss of HtK are strongly tied together, while trying to say the opposite: it was unfair that a model summoned that easily, with -2Wds, didn't die from a 4Dg strike.

That said, now that they are more or less as resilient as a Steam Arachnid (which has Armor +1 vs. MG Armor +2, but also Df6 vs. MG Df5, and immunity to all Pulse Damage)
BUT, the Arachnid has better mobility (Wk5 + Unimpeded vs. MG Wk4, and Magnetism which is very situational, especially when you are the provider of Target Construct...), better Wp (Wp6 vs. MG Wp4), and two working effects (Latch on and Swarm together), would asking for a more usable PoM(which, the very opposite of Latch on that gets the opponent in positioning trouble, gets in trouble the user himself), or what I said in my previous post, really be so unreasonable?

That is basically it... why would I use them anywhere in arcanists now outside of total corner situations where that one point armor outweights all the utility of the  SA... and my opponent does not bring armor ignoring stuff against an arcanist anyway?

Shouldnt there be a difference between solving unwanted interactions or even straight up Cuddling a model that was unbalanced due to uneffective playtesting... and getting rid of his spot in the faction? I think the supposed nieche is buffing via PoM but in the current state of the skill that is borderline impossible to pull in a way that is worth the ap. 

If I don´t see how the never leaving 3 is not completely gutting the use of the skill now please let me know your new experiences... I tried it several times by now..and thanks to the anytime condition, any lure/push/place/move effect of my opponent makes it useless...as if staying always in the bubble wasn´t hard enough while moving your own stuff....

 

[katadder]

hmm, not overly happy with all the changes. metal gamin for me were slow but steady defensive things that had minimal damage output and I rarely used them (other gamin are generally better), this will take them out of use even more for me as losing both Prot of Metal and hard to kill whilst staying melee 4 makes them not very defensive or offensive and they dont even explode in the killers face.

how often has anyone tried PoM on anyone but a metal gamin? due to their slowness its pretty pointless as they cant keep up. this needed a change to an end of the turn thing thing at least with the cuddles they got.

guess its time for the ice/fire gamin to join Ramos crew or find some points for rail workers.

Edited November 14, 2015 by katadder

[Astrella]

Eh, I've used it quite often on the Mechanical Rider when she gets in a Brawl, summon a Metal Gamin to up her defence. 

[Sordid Strumpet]

 

If I don´t see how the never leaving 3 is not completely gutting the use of the skill now please let me know your new experiences... I tried it several times by now..and thanks to the anytime condition, any lure/push/place/move effect of my opponent makes it useless...as if staying always in the bubble wasn´t hard enough while moving your own stuff....

 

It's not as though lures are everywhere all the time. There are a few lures, you get to resist and if your opponent specifically uses them to get you guy away from the Gamin, they're not using it for something else that would probably be more productive. I've never had an issue, and my Gamins never protected themselves.

[angyi]

Opposing lures are the worst case scenario. But pushes and lures are omnipresent, because you can (and you will) push/move/etc. your own models too. Not mentioning the natural mobility of PoM clients, which is often times superior to the gamin.

Generally speaking, DfX to Df6 on a key model isn't worth it if it costs 4SS, reduces the mobility of the PoM client and makes for a conservative activation order. Of course I can imagine dozens of situations where PoM would still be very useful, only those situations are not predictable enough to reason the hiring of a model.

Now the Metal Gamin is still playable. It's not even bad. It's just become the most nondescript member of the 4 SS category.

[MagicGis]

 

If I don´t see how the never leaving 3 is not completely gutting the use of the skill now please let me know your new experiences... I tried it several times by now..and thanks to the anytime condition, any lure/push/place/move effect of my opponent makes it useless...as if staying always in the bubble wasn´t hard enough while moving your own stuff....

 

It's not as though lures are everywhere all the time. There are a few lures, you get to resist and if your opponent specifically uses them to get you guy away from the Gamin, they're not using it for something else that would probably be more productive. I've never had an issue, and my Gamins never protected themselves.

Wish I would play against your opponents... and for christ sake we all already agreed that gamin should not protect themselves (maybe other gamin but whatever wording on that is fine)... however than make the ending condition usable. 

 

We are not only talking about lures here ...which are by the way basically in every game against ressers as well as others.... we are also talking obey effects... which there are plenty... push enemy effects, which litterally every faction has, ... as well as other move or place effects which several commonly played masters have access too in their base kit. ...

I think since my demo game I did not play a single game in which none of my models was moved by the opponents, or he at least had the option to do so on the board. 

He also does not even need to have the intent or single goal to break your PoM with his lure. Luring an enemy towards you to charge/shoot is the goal, breaking PoM is the cute sideeffect and an wasted AP the bottom line.

it also makes your own model basically nearly immobile. if they start besides each other you can´t even move your own metal gamin his pityful walk without negating your PoM...not even talking about the model that has it, or any mobility effect you have. 

It looks like they overcuddleed them clearly to make them a less attractive summon, which is a very bad reason to cuddle a model to the level where there is nearly no case where it makes the right hire for a crew. The spiders are still the example that stands...why hire the gamin over it?

 

IF HtK needs to go because of metal rider at least fix the PoM to a level where it is commonly useful to give us a reason to hire the models we bought.

Edited November 14, 2015 by MagicGis

[madaxeman]

Now the Metal Gamin is still playable. It's not even bad. It's just become the most nondescript member of the 4 SS category.

• Metal is now the Gamin for using against constructs to use it's magentism. PoM is a bonus, Armour +1 (edited +2) is actually quite a bit meh but better than nothing, and card-free defensive stance is a real force-multiplier on the armour as well
• Fire Gamin is for synergy with burning, and when you need some fairly erratic shooting at range. 
• Ice Gamin is for, erm, synergy with Frozen Heart (?) and an immunity to some duels, which is sort of a situational benefit depending on your opponents crew whatever else it does that I can't remember.  
• Wind is for people who have the new book, but I don't have it yet scheme running where you need to run schemes

I guess that does make Metal nondescript - but it may be better to say its use is more situationally dependent (like Ice and Wind especially), but also that its key magnetic attack is one of the best attack stats in the game and is therefore more reliable

Edited November 16, 2015 by madaxeman
updated in light of subsequent posts

[dgraz]

 

•  Armour +1 is a bit meh but better than nothing
•  

Good thing it's Armor +2 then.

[Bengt]

Now the Metal Gamin is still playable. It's not even bad. It's just become the most nondescript member of the 4 SS category.

• Metal is now the Gamin for using against constructs to use it's magentism. PoM is a bonus, Armour +1 is a bit meh but better than nothing
• Fire Gamin is for synergy with burning, and when you need some fairly erratic shooting at range. 
• Ice Gamin is for, erm, synergy with Frozen Heart (?) and whatever else it does that I can't remember.  
• Wind is for people who have the new book, but I don't have it yet 

I guess that does make Metal nondescript - but it may be better to say its use is more situationally dependent, but also more reliable

Ice Gamin are immune to horror/paralyse. Their Bite of Winter buff is a very nice for FH (which also makes them pretty decent at melee for a 4 pointer).

I'd say Wind Gamin are for scheming with Flight, Leap and the post death push.

The problem with Metal Gamin IMO is that their main thing, Magnetism, relies on the opponent's crew build. The other 4 pointers (this includes Steam Arachnids, Molemen, Mannequins, and Electrical Creations) all have some role, however modest, that relies on your crew build. If PoM was a little easier to use (personally I'd gladly see this at the expense of some of the MGs other talents) you could plan a role for Metal Gamin as well.

[angyi]

• Metal is now the Gamin for using against constructs to use it's magentism. PoM is a bonus, Armour +1 is a bit meh but better than nothing
• Fire Gamin is for synergy with burning, and when you need some fairly erratic shooting at range. 
• Ice Gamin is for, erm, synergy with Frozen Heart (?) and whatever else it does that I can't remember.  
• Wind is for people who have the new book, but I don't have it yet 

I guess that does make Metal nondescript - but it may be better to say its use is more situationally dependent, but also more reliable

Dunno, in my book PoM is not a bonus but a non-existent ability now, as if it wasn't printed on the stat card. And armour +1/+2 is not a selling point in itself when I hire Gamin for a certain purpose. So I'm left with magnetism, which is a great action and worth considering when your opponent's case is heavy with constructs.

PoM is one of the rare design flaws by Wyrd, luckily none of the game-breaking kind. Okay pre-errata it was silly, but post-errata it's just silly in a bad way. Now it's like "you automatically win if it's Monday and the second name of your opponent is Randolph". Can this ability be super useful? Sure. Would you buy a box of three models with this ability? Not me.

Edit: too late, I already have six Metal Gamin...

[moxypoo]

It's interesting to me that people think Metal Gamin are useless and have no niche now that they lost Hard to Kill. They still work perfectly fine as tarpit models. Consider that most attacks in this game have weak damage 3 or less and that most attacks that hit end up being weak, and you'll realize that it still takes 4 successful hits to kill a Metal Gamin.  I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen a Metal Gamin take more than 1 Wd from an attack that didn't ignore armor.

Plus, they have the ability to take "free" defensive stance so they're perfectly serviceable tanks, especially for 4SS.