How much Vertical Interaction is in your games?

[Daemakon]

My friend and I are going to build a pair of new boards, and we had some pretty cool ideas for adding in layers of vertical spaces. Things like bridges over canyons and streams, walkways between buildings, stairs up to the rooftops, that sort of thing. The idea being to make the board like a weird west "Necromunda slum," which would both look cool, and maybe add some interesting play.

 

This got me thinking, though, how much Vertical Interaction ^TM is there really in a normal game of Malifaux? Right now we use buildings, ruins, and fences for all our terrain, and even though I built a second level on a lot of them I hardly ever use it. I'm not sure if this is normal, but 99% of the time my dudes feet are firmly planted on the ground. Now I have more melee focused crews, so that could potentially change if I were more inclined to shoot, but as it stands I just couldn't think of a real benefit (aside from looking really cool) of being higher up.

 

Maybe in larger games (we only play at 35) that vertical space would be more enticing as the ground level would start to get more crowded, but it just never seemed worth it so far. Moving up and down levels is often a real pain, loosing precious distance or taking damage.

 

So I ask, you, people with more experience: "How much vertical interaction is in your games, and would you do more if you could?"

[PolishSausage]

first of all playing with vertical interaction skews the game terribly to playing only with certain models. It also creates a lot of "ap" loss and this game is all about resource management.

 

High buildings locally are all played as impassible terrain, sometimes even ht 2 buildings are called as such due to us waning to streamline the play and dont want one player to benefit too greatly without both players having to alter their lists.

 

If you make a board make sure u have plenty of easily distinguishable pieces that are ht1 ht2 ht 3 and ht 4.

 

So once more, vertical interaction is a pain to deal with and creates skewed lists that make playing game not fun.

[Carcosa]

HEAPS.

 

Every game of Malifaux, besides the very first intro game I played has had a great deal of terrain on it, and plenty of various heights as well. the buildings all have enough ladders and such that reaching sniper nests and so on with melee models is not really too difficult. Walkways are a little harder to deal with as ranged models can sit up there and snipe with some impunity to a degree, that is of course until they get lured or pushed off said walkway at height 3 or 4.............

[SpiralngCadavr]

Height 2 is usually as high as things go, with higher being impassible, with the exception of things like hills where it's more about interesting terrain/LOS than attacking from different floors, and that more often than not proves a chore.

 

Also, if you're planning on doing a ton of climbable terrain, I'd highly recommend house ruling it for 1/2 the normal movement expenditures for climbing.

[StuffedKiwi]

Like Polish, I've found verticality to be a pain. I had a lovely, quite complicated terraclips board made from sewers and streets (at contrasting levels), and the amount of time spent going up and down ladders and steps, really changed the game dynamics. Combat at mixed heights is also a pain. In short, I dismantled that board and try to keep things reasonably two-dimensional now. I love the IDEA of mixed-level boards, and think they look awesome, but I've found that they're not so much fun to actually play on. So I'd keep that in mind, as you pour time, love, and energy into making a board -- perhaps find a way to try out a simulation of the board, before you start building?

[Molja]

As above our games usually reach ht 3 at max. Few times had watchtowers, ht >3, with snipers and after that they have been impassable.

What Stuffedkiwi said sounds a good idea. Simulate a board, or a part of it, with paper and books or something similar. While using paper you could even draw dense/hazardous terrain there! It's not insirational to play on board like that but at least could try out some new things. I should actually ask friends to try this...

[Bengt]

The abstracted LoS rules severely favours ranged models on elevated terrain as there isn't any "shadow" behind other terrain. It's something to consider when designing a board.

[Tzarcastic]

As someone who really likes the idea of a bunch of multi-height stuff - any ideas on house rules to make it work more smoothly?  SpiralingCadaver opines for 1/2 the normal Climb penalty, but calculating 3/4 of a model's Move seems a little extreme (and would remove differences between Speed 3, 4, and 5) - what about Unimpeded letting you ignore the Climb penalty?  Or a flat -1'' penalty?  Or both?

 

What about melee attacks at different levels - maybe models can hit things up to their Height in Inches up or down from them (though against Cover if hitting up), to make higher ground valuable, whilst not making the whole game a shooting skew?

 

Any other issues?  Any other solutions?

[lusciousmccabe]

I find high terrain pieces work better if they includes slopes or stepped faces that you treat as open terrain. It means you have another route to the top if climbing is too difficult.

Multi-story stuff can be a bit problematic because usually there isn't much access between floors without flying or climbing. If you plan it out well you could potentially avoid this but you'll definitely want to play test as you go since just having a lot of terrain on the board can skew the game, regardless of heights.

[Omenbringer]

The abstracted LoS rules severely favours ranged models on elevated terrain as there isn't any "shadow" behind other terrain. It's something to consider when designing a board.

 

I agree, the LOS Rules and the vertical interaction rules were a huge step backward from the last edition. They really dont make sense and aren't even that streamlined for actual 3-d tables. I blame development and testing on Vassal more than anything else, not surprisingly that is where the rules make the most sense.

Like Polish, I've found verticality to be a pain. I had a lovely, quite complicated terraclips board made from sewers and streets (at contrasting levels), and the amount of time spent going up and down ladders and steps, really changed the game dynamics. Combat at mixed heights is also a pain. In short, I dismantled that board and try to keep things reasonably two-dimensional now. I love the IDEA of mixed-level boards, and think they look awesome, but I've found that they're not so much fun to actually play on. So I'd keep that in mind, as you pour time, love, and energy into making a board -- perhaps find a way to try out a simulation of the board, before you start building?

The shortened guarantied game length is another nail in the coffin. One thought though, Steps should probably not require any additional movement cost, their canalizing effect is plenty of a penalty.

 

To the OP, if you are playing more casual than competitive games and just looking to create engaging "stories" (In my Opinion, Malifaux is much better suited to this style of "RPG" style play than competitive environs) I might recommend a few things; first, grab the first edition books and adapt what you want (you should be able to get them really cheap if not free).  The Rules for LOS, Vertical Terrain and indoor combat are much better in that edition and if you are planning a urban board you may want to consider the "destroyable" terrain rules as well (One of my favorite games featured Avatar Seamus smashing thru walls to get to his targets).

 

Second, lengthen the "guarantied" game length by a few turns (I would recommend at least 2 though 4 might be better if your playing a densely packed urban board). Third, play the "Story Encounter" mode (increased Strategy pool) rather than the "Standard Encounter" mode. Fourth, "encourage" full use of the board layout by placing "grab and get" markers for Strategies and Schemes on different levels. These items will address the majority of issues that arise from creating these types of layouts.

 

Fifth, you might need to "house rule" a few abilities, particularly Incorporeal which will dominate due to the dramatic increase in "real" speed (they can walk thru walls while every one else has to go around). Doors and indoor movement are another area you are going to need to house rule, particularly looking at how medium to large bases and/or Ht 3 models are effected by those things. A search thru the forum might provide some recommendations from last edition on how to do this. If not I remember a few of them.

[LunarSol]

Justin has gone on record as saying if there was something he'd take out of the game completely, its vertical board movement, so take that for what its worth.

 

That said, I think it has its place, but you need to put a lot of thought into it.  Most importantly, know that movement in the game is heavily built around how much horizontal movement you get.  With this in mind, its generally important to minimize the cost of vertical movement to whatever creates the smallest penalty.  Personally, I play staircases as open terrain, like a sloped hill.  You move up them at the same rate as normal and only lose the horizontal movement lost to the diagonal.  I generally also try to avoid ladders whenever possible, as they are the greatest culprit in vertical movement spent vs horizontal movement lost.

[Omenbringer]

Justin has gone on record as saying if there was something he'd take out of the game completely, its vertical board movement, so take that for what its worth.

Rather unfortunate as vertical terrain introduces so much to a game when done well (read as rules that account for it and actually make sense). It also makes the boards so much more engaging to the eye. Engaging tables bring new players over to watch and ask questions.

 

I remember looking at the "Company Tables" during GenCon 2013 and being so disappointed in there blandness (and yes even the "finals" display board though wonderfully built was also fairly sparse), especially when compared against the amazing Corvus Belli Infinity or Megacon games Mercs tables a few short feet away.

[Daemakon]

Many of you are echoing my experiences when it comes to playing with varying terrain heights. Even to the point of mentioning a few of the "fixes" I had already considered, reduced climbing penalties, increasing the number of game turns, using alternate rules for attacking between levels (Ht + Reach). It seems I am not completely off-base when it comes to keeping boots on the ground. Sticking with stairs over ladders was not something I had initially thought of (ladders save precious space), but it seems to be a necessity for a smooth gameplay experience.

 

Test "building" some terrain and playing a few games on it is probably the best solution to find out if it is worth it or not, but the group is fairly gung-ho about moving forward. In an attempt to reach a happy medium I have toned down the terrain built into the boards, and as per my original ideas the pieces that do have vertical movement will all have ways to pass under them to a certain extent. That way if the pieces are too annoying to deal with at least they have ground floor functionality.

 

I took some time and sketched out a few examples, to see what the general consensus might be, hopefully they read well enough to convey the idea.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LunarSol]

I think you're definitely on the right track.  One suggestion I'd have is to put another staircase on the opposite of the top floor of that 2 story render.  Generally you want to make sure any path you have actually goes somewhere, as any time you create a dead end you create area that either doesn't have a draw for someone to move for, or an area that can easily be controlled by a single model blocking the only way in.

 

This isn't specific to elevation, but whenever designing terrain its always useful to ask how much it costs to go somewhere and why you would go there.  What pulls players to that spot?  You can use other terrain like severe and hazardous or impassable to push players towards other terrain as well, but any of the "can go" terrain needs a why.

[Wake of Godzilla]

Sadly very little - the rules are complicated and make the game slow down / create arguments.

 

Typically to start with they are very slow to move into a higher ground or create to much of a LOS barrier. Otherwise a sniper will FtS onto the terrain and either be extremely dominate all game or be lured/obeyed/pulled off very quickly and die. Love it in theory but quiet dull in actual game play.

 

I once heard Justin mentioned that he would have preferred to design the rules in 2D because of how simple it makes the game. The modeller / narrative in me rejects this but the rules guy can't help to think how much better this would be. 

[Sholto]

I played a few games with this set-up, and it's 10" from the top of the bridge to the surface of the water below. I love vertical elevations and try and find new ways to incorporate them to make the games fun:-

 

 

A game that deals with verticality really well is Batman Miniatures Game. I am not accusing the BMG ruleset of being water-tight or perfectly balanced, but in terms of producing pure gameplay fun and magic, it is unrivalled.

[Justin]

I agree, the LOS Rules and the vertical interaction rules were a huge step backward from the last edition. They really dont make sense and aren't even that streamlined for actual 3-d tables. 

 

The current rules were not skewed or changed to accommodate vassal, they were written with physical tables in mind.

 

In the old rules, a model added the Ht of terrain it was standing on to its Ht. So a Ht 2 model on a Ht 10 building is now Ht 12. The old rules also still worked the same way as the current ones in that you had partial LoS to a target if the Ht of either model was greater than the Ht of any intervening terrain.

 

So, let's say model A is Ht 2 and is on top of a 10" high building (Ht 12 with the Ht combined) and model B is three feet away, across the entire table, completely behind another 10" high building (Ht 10). Model A can draw LoS to model B, as model A's Ht is greater than the Ht of the intervening terrain, even though, from a 'realistic' perspective, it makes no intuitive sense that the models see each other.

 

This was a large reason for the change.

 

You may not like it, that's fine. LoS is a finicky point in the rules, no disagreement there. And I do believe miniatures games work best from a rules perspective if they choose either a well defined 2D abstract system, or just go true line of sight. But I don't think last edition was really the gold standard, either.

 

As to the OP's question, clearly vertical interactions are a sticking point. I would be careful with adding too many of them. And I think it is a good idea to make a 'test board' out of things like cups and books which you can playtest first.

 

[Drool_bucket]

Justin sums things up pretty well.  As we've played more and more M2e my local meta (which includes most of New England) has really started going way from any type of "Necromunda Underhive" style tables.  We use a lot of Ht 2 and less terrain, but rarely stretch outside of that aside from centerpiece terrain features.

 

I used to support the current Ht system of LoS, but again, as time has gone on, I would love a True Line of Sight take on Malifaux, because I think it would bring back the Underhive feel of tables and instead of worry about LoS lanes and range attacking causing an issue, you'd be more worried about movement and that's a lot more fun than shooting, imo.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I liked Justin's post as well. For myself I have very much appreciated how Malifaux has kept the feel of it's modeling roots, with so many beautiful scenic bases, which I don't feel work well in a True LoS system. I particularly would not like to see Malifaux become a game where players begin to model for advantage.

[Justin]

I liked Justin's post as well. For myself I have very much appreciated how Malifaux has kept the feel of it's modeling roots, with so many beautiful scenic bases, which I don't feel work well in a True LoS system. I particularly would not like to see Malifaux become a game where players begin to model for advantage.

 

This was the reason we didn't go with true LoS, and likely never will in Malifaux. When you have models exploding out of crates and sticking their legs in the air, you need rules to accommodate that, for better or worse.

[AverageGatsby]

We typically play with a few buildings here and there, mostly Necromunda stuff. The upper level see a fair amount of play from things with leap and flight (Sliruids, Necropunks, Merris, Zoraida) and the interiors are used too. The biggest annoyance is definitely stairs. Rarely will it ever be worth it to hike up the stairs, unless as mentioned they are sloped or count as a ladder or something. So while the bottom floors and roofs are often used, things like balconies, ramparts, and spiral staircases rarely are. 

[AverageGatsby]

This was the reason we didn't go with true LoS, and likely never will in Malifaux. When you have models exploding out of crates and sticking their legs in the air, you need rules to accommodate that, for better or worse.

Ewwy, what are the rotten belles doing now? Or is this one of those kinky gremlin things?

[Omenbringer]

You may not like it, that's fine. LoS is a finicky point in the rules, no disagreement there. And I do believe miniatures games work best from a rules perspective if they choose either a well defined 2D abstract system, or just go true line of sight. But I don't think last edition was really the gold standard, either.

We will definitely just have to disagree, especially about anything discussing that play testing period. Agreed the last edition wasn't perfect but it was a hell of a lot better than the current "just ignore it" method.

 

And for the record I am not a fan of True Line of Sight either, the cylinder method works plenty well.

[Gremlin guy]

The general consensus here dissapoints me as I just started making some buildings for a city board.

[Omenbringer]

Gremlin Guy, if you are just playing casual then dont let it discourage you. House rule a few things and alter the game length.