A bit dissapointed.....

[paradoxstorm]

It's just a different way of thinking about the randomness, really. With a deck of cards, you are 'setting' the randomness at the time of the shuffle, but even then how many and when those cards get flipped depends entirely on a rather large number of choices. 

 

This is an understatement.  When the OP talks about knowing the order of the first third of the deck they are shifting from randomness to determinism plain and simple.  The same would be true in any card game where cards are reveled as you go--poker, rummy, etc--if you know the next several cards in the deck you have an enormous knowledge advantage that should allow you to crush an opponent.  If both players share the knowledge, and are equally skillful, the next few moves may be fixed.   (Given the number of models to be activated even this is a bit of a stretch.)

 

Until the cards are actually revealed, there is nothing "fixed" about any aspect of the game.  Even if I have good card counting skills all I can do is estimate probabilities (which is routine for card players) and hope Fortuna is on my side.  Even if the deck is rich in high value cards my damage flip could still be "weak," even on a + flip.  Unlikely, but still possible.

[Brass Monkey]

Welcome to Malifaux, SixtySix. Thank you for your post - fresh perspectives are always welcome. Even though your post met with pretty much universal disagreement, the fact you asked the question has prompted a lot of thought on the subject and I've enjoyed reading all the responses you've received. Hope you're less disappointed once you've got a few more games under your belt. This game is very deep and many of its subtleties are not immediately apparent.

[SixtySix]

Thanks for all the responces everyone.  It was an interesting read.  And thank you to all for not pointing out that I mispelled "disappointed" in my header. =)  While I somewhat disagree with a lot of things said, I still think the game is pretty cool.  I will 100% agree with whoever said that if you run through the whole/most of the deck in a turn, things even out.   I have only ever got through maybe 1/3rd of the deck in a turn.  If every turn I would get through all/most of the deck, I would have no complaints at all.  I am going to make a similar post on a board that uses dice to determine the games and see what kind of responces I get.

[CapnBloodbeard]

What size games are you playing, to barely get through the deck?  That sounds unusual.

 

In that case, the argument could be made that luck has less impact as the control hand can potentially play a bigger part (6 cards in your hand is a much bigger proportion of, say, 20 cards than 60).

[Carcosa]

What elements do you disagree with 66?

[ArcticPangolin]

Definitely spread the word elsewhere, SS! I think at the very least it'll get others interested in the Malifaux system who might not otherwise check it out.

 

Also, it does depend a little on the crews and/or Masters involved, but other than the 1st turn, or a quiet 4th/5th turn after one or both crews have been mostly tabled, it's pretty rare to not run through most of the deck. Unless you're playing at less than ideal SS-cost games, that is.

 

A lot of people have different theories on the black joker as well as it can have such a major impact on the game. I will usually try to keep it in my hand as soon as it shows up, and the sooner the better, then I can blast away to my heart's content. Others might hold onto it until the hand draw phase next turn, seeing it as a waste of space and resources. All of it depends on personal preference, how your (and your opponent's!) crew influences your Control Hand, and how the game is unfolding.

[Math Mathonwy]

Thanks for all the responces everyone.  It was an interesting read.  And thank you to all for not pointing out that I mispelled "disappointed" in my header. =)  While I somewhat disagree with a lot of things said, I still think the game is pretty cool.  I will 100% agree with whoever said that if you run through the whole/most of the deck in a turn, things even out.   I have only ever got through maybe 1/3rd of the deck in a turn.  If every turn I would get through all/most of the deck, I would have no complaints at all.  I am going to make a similar post on a board that uses dice to determine the games and see what kind of responces I get.

Play Wong and take A Gremlin's Luck Upgrade - you will run through your deck in no time Somer is also pretty damn good in going through the deck what with all the Bayou Two-Card and card draw mechanics that he has.

[dgraz]

Out of curiosity, what other games have you mastered? You mentioned:

 For all you very experianced Malifaux players, I bet you could look at both players hands and top 3rd of their deck and pretty much know who is going to "win" that round before the round starts. 

Several of those 'very experienced players' responded.....yet:

 

 I somewhat disagree with a lot of things said, 

Perhaps if I better understood what has given you such a solid grasp of the mechanics "after a couple of games" then I could better target the areas I think you should give a second look.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'd also like to posit that even if what you said was true, and let's assume for a moment that if you could see both player's hands and the deck stacks you might know who would win, the fact is, a player of the game will only have access to 1/4 that information, their hand. I cannot tell you how many games that things have gone a certain direction that they didn't have to, if only the opponent had known what was in the hand of their opponent. 

 

A case in point, I recently played a game with Molly, who had taken the Spare parts upgrade. A hooded rider threw off the models locking him down with his 0 action and came in on Molly, and instead of going after her and possibly killing her (he had retribution's eye) He was worried about what I had in my had and Molly possibly surviving, and then activating and bringing in a Rogue Necro from all the corpses around her. So instead of attacking her, he went the safe route and went after using his trigger to remove all the corpses around Molly. If he had seen my hand and known I only had a few low value cards, and couldn't have survived his assault, let alone summoned a rogue Necromancy if she survived, it would potentially have been a very different game.

 

Part of the reason the card mechanic works so well, at least in my opinion, is the fact that this game is so much a game of resource management. You really don't want to take an action that is going to fail and lose you an AP from your limited supply. I mean we all know it's going to happen, but at least when I make my decisions on what actions to take, and which targets to go after, I always weigh the likelihood the action will succeed and how that will advance my accumulation of VP. And how many cards, and how many cards they have cycled, always factors into my decisions. So at least in my experience I find the mechanics to be better ll around and vastly to be preferred to dice.

[Ampers&nd]

I often feel that I get a raw deal with Luck at Malifaux, I flip terriible and my Oppo has nothing but face cards staring at me across the table, but once I've calmed down I know that there is both Randomness and fairness/predictability in Malifaux, that dice can never replicate. 

 

For example- I know without doubt that 

• There are 12 cards in there  that will cause severe damage, and are likely to win duels.
• There are 16 cards in there that will quite likely fail most duels (ace to 4) and do little to no damage
• There is one red joker that will almost guarantee a success
• There is one Black Joker that will almost guarantee a failure
• The same rules apply to my opponent.

When I lay them down like that it looks like it isn't that random, especially if I cycle the deck as all of the top 4 will come into play at some point. But then I also know that- 

• I cannot control when my opponent will cause me to flip in a duel
• I cannot precisely predict what order either myself or my opponent will activate
• I cannot precisely predict how many cards I will flip in any duel until it occurs
• I cannot flip cards from my own deck without a purpose, and usually at least 1AP or a 0 action 
• Both myself and my opponent will have at least 5 cards from the deck in hand, altering the above rules.

So when you combine the two lists you see that even if my opponent said 'go ahead, stack your deck however you like' everything after my first activation would be almost as uncontrolled as if I had shuffled as normal. (in normal circumstances, obviously there would be the odd situation where you could take a better guess at the course of events, like if Teddy is in melee with your heavily wounded master..) The bottom list will always overrule the top list to create a random game, but the top list will still be true, creating fairness and balance over a turn. 

 

hope that made sense to anyone other than me...

 

 

<<as an aside- I once made my opponent cycle his deck twice in one turn, he had Shenlong and a bunch of ten thunder brothers, plus focusing archers, sensei Wu and some other oriental jerks, I was trying to get the TTB off an objective marker, and in the end just settled on attacking them so many times with my spiders that eventually he had to flip the black joker... between his extra focuses on other models, my spiders swarms millions of attacks and the to DF the TT bros get when I missed, he flipped just under 150 cards in one turn...>>

[daniello_s]

I think Malifaux doesn't suffer much from the 'card flipping' system. I think rules are awesome as they allow you (in certain situations of course) to interact with the flips by cheating them.

 

What I think is Malifaux biggest concern is that some models (or their stats I should rather say) are to good for the SS cost of the model. The prime example would be Rotten Belle - combine stupidly strong Lure ability with stupidly high range and Ca value (not to mention this has both suits already included in the stats) on the durable (8 wounds + Hard to Wound) and cheap model (5SS). Seriously? This combo means it is almost auto-include model in all Resser crews and when you have this kind of situation IMO it means there is something wrong

[Dirial]

I think Malifaux doesn't suffer much from the 'card flipping' system. I think rules are awesome as they allow you (in certain situations of course) to interact with the flips by cheating them.

 

What I think is Malifaux biggest concern is that some models (or their stats I should rather say) are to good for the SS cost of the model. The prime example would be Rotten Belle - combine stupidly strong Lure ability with stupidly high range and Ca value (not to mention this has both suits already included in the stats) on the durable (8 wounds + Hard to Wound) and cheap model (5SS). Seriously? This combo means it is almost auto-include model in all Resser crews and when you have this kind of situation IMO it means there is something wrong

 

Don't agree. Rotten Belles are good, but I don't see an auto-include anymore, outside of certain scenarios.

 

Nurses, though....

[jonahmaul]

Indeed.  I have this debate with a friend a lot.  Whilst Belle's Lure is undoubtedly excellent which makes them good for their SS cost when you consider them in a faction that as a whole have very little range then it seems less OP (because it isn't!).  They make most of my lists (probably 90%) but certainly not all.

[daniello_s]

Indeed.  I have this debate with a friend a lot.  Whilst Belle's Lure is undoubtedly excellent which makes them good for their SS cost when you consider them in a faction that as a whole have very little range then it seems less OP (because it isn't!).  They make most of my lists (probably 90%) but certainly not all.

 

Which means in 1 of 10 games you decide: 'hell, I'll have fun with other stuff' but then you realize that Belles are too strong to be ignored and you get back to use them again They are not OP, they are too good for their cost. Also argument that they must be so strong cause Rezzers lack in shooting is somehow funny.

 

As I spoke with my fellow players (quite few are either dedicated and some even exclusive Rezzer players) even they admitted Belles are a kind of mistake

[Dirial]

Which means in 1 of 10 games you decide: 'hell, I'll have fun with other stuff' but then you realize that Belles are too strong to be ignored and you get back to use them again They are not OP, they are too good for their cost. Also argument that they must be so strong cause Rezzers lack in shooting is somehow funny.

 

As I spoke with my fellow players (quite few are either dedicated and some even exclusive Rezzer players) even they admitted Belles are a kind of mistake

 

As said, I disagree with that statement.

[Sybarite]

Yeah this is so not true.

[Breng77]

I also feel like this is only remotely true on turn 1 or any turn where you have not built your hand/deck. Between stones and start of run discards you can really mitigate your luck. Something that never happens in a dice game.

[daniello_s]

As said, I disagree with that statement.

 Give me Belles to my Outcasts and I'll prove you my point...

 

.. you Rezzer lovers

[Dirial]

 Give me Belles to my Outcasts and I'll prove you my point...

 

.. you Rezzer lovers

 

Well, I'm only playing against Belles. That said, I don't believe you could prove that point. There are a lot of good players playing with and against Belles. I don't think your victories would make much of a difference to my opinion.

 

If you want to talk about auto-include 5 SS Minions in Ressers, let's talk about Nurses and Necropunks. Preferably in another thread.

[zFiend]

Well, I'm only playing against Belles. That said, I don't believe you could prove that point. There are a lot of good players playing with and against Belles. I don't think your victories would make much of a difference to my opinion.

 

If you want to talk about auto-include 5 SS Minions in Ressers, let's talk about Nurses and Necropunks. Preferably in another thread.

 

And if you want to make this really ridiculous, let's talk about Metal Gamins for 4ss. 

[Cats Laughing]

Thanks for all the responces everyone.  It was an interesting read.  And thank you to all for not pointing out that I mispelled "disappointed" in my header. =)  While I somewhat disagree with a lot of things said, I still think the game is pretty cool.  I will 100% agree with whoever said that if you run through the whole/most of the deck in a turn, things even out.   I have only ever got through maybe 1/3rd of the deck in a turn.  If every turn I would get through all/most of the deck, I would have no complaints at all.  I am going to make a similar post on a board that uses dice to determine the games and see what kind of responces I get.

 

Other people have mentioned this, but I'll add in a few thoughts.  

 

Part of the card flipping mechanic is the ability to influence both your flip and your opponent's flip and therefore affect the 'luck' of the respective players.  Players with a lot of experience tend to do this much better than newer players which may be part of your initial 'bad luck'.

 

A few ways you can influence your flip:

-Focus

-Soulstones

-Model abilities adding +flips (either through an action to buff the model or nearby friendlies or through an innate ability like Three Headed)

-"Cheating" from your Control Hand

-Defensive Stance

 

A few ways you can influence your opponent's flip:

-Soulstones

-Model abilities forcing -flips on the opponent (Hard to Wound, Stubborn, etc...)

-Cover (against ranged attacks)

-cheating from your control hand to alter the 'margin of victory' -> will at least influence the resulting damage flip

 

 

There may be others that I have missed, but a few of those are generally not picked up on by newer players. I started off with Rasputina and it took me probably a half dozen games of "why is my nuke spell not as good as everyone says" before I started using Focus and then I realized why people can be scared of her spell casting.

 

If you're just doing your actions with considering ways in which you can adjust your luck (while your opponent is forcing his luck adjustments on you), then the game can feel very frustrating and luck based.  But really it's about the skill in using 'luck' adjustments.  That takes time, practice, and occasionally a guiding hand.

[Omenbringer]

Though I do rather enjoy the card mechanic for Malifaux I can see a bit of merit in the OP's comment. The more you play the easier some of the more potent and esoteric aspects of the game become. Deck Shaping, Cycling, out activations, activation order, "Card Counting", crew building, etc all take time to really learn and when a seasoned player uses them they well, they can make games some what of a foregone conclusion (especially against new players that dont have that benefit). There is a reason casinos have adopted the practices they have, especially in games like black jack. It isn't difficult to track the important cards (10+) in a single deck.

 

I have often said Malifaux is not a well balanced game for new players facing experienced ones (very similar to Go or Chess).

[Claymore65]

Though I do rather enjoy the card mechanic for Malifaux I can see a bit of merit in the OP's comment. The more you play the easier some of the more potent and esoteric aspects of the game become. Deck Shaping, Cycling, out activations, activation order, "Card Counting", crew building, etc all take time to really learn and when a seasoned player uses them they well, they can make games some what of a foregone conclusion (especially against new players that dont have that benefit). There is a reason casinos have adopted the practices they have, especially in games like black jack. It isn't difficult to track the important cards (10+) in a single deck.

 

I have often said Malifaux is not a well balanced game for new players facing experienced ones (very similar to Go or Chess).

 

I would definitely agree with this point. While a game is never truly decided right at the beginning, Malifaux is certainly a game that relies more on player skill. A skilled player gets massive advantages...which is probably for the best. Rewarding experience and player skill is generally a very good thing for a game to strive for.

 

That said, I agree that it can make introducing the game difficult at times. A newbie will oftentimes miss all the subtler details of the game, and without a lot of experience it can take a long time for them to truly challenge their opponents. Basically, when playing with newer players, you shouldn't be afraid to go a tiny bit easier on them, or give them a bunch of tips, otherwise they'll think they just lost due to luck. I know I was guilty of this when I started playing, and I can still be from time to time.

[Adran]

2 things

 

Firstly, as an outside observer, knowing a players hand I might know what they are going to do. Knowing their deck really doesn't help, as they don't know it.

 

Lets say they have Perdita, and are going to want to shoot a flesh construct and a Cruligan.  I'm going to say neither side has a hand, as that is luck mitigation, and I'm tryign to demonstrate luck does happen.

 

Now I know Perditas cards go  6, 5, 13, 8, 6, 4,  Red Joker.

 

Ressurectionists cards go 10, 5, 13, 

 

Attacking the Cruligan first gets Peridta a miss. Her Second attack against the Flesh Construct would hit  and put damage on a double negative, and do moderate damage

If First she Attackied the Flesh Construct she hits but is on a tripple negative flip.  She would then do weak.  She would then shoot the Cruligan and hit on a negative flip. Red Joker damage

 

Same 2 actions, but the outcomes are completely different depending on the order you chose. They also then use up a different amount of cards.

On the table both options are equally good, but dependign on how "lucky" they are they get a very different outcome despite the cards in the deck being in the same order.   

Now if After Perdita missed the cruligan in the first example, she instead tried to shoot it again, she will hit it for a negative damage flip, and do moderate damage.

So if the cruligan was on 4 wounds, we have 3 different outcomes to the attacks, its either on 4 wounds, on 1 wound or dead. And as an outside observer, despite knowing these 3 possible outcomes, I can't say which the player would take, as tactically they are all equal.

 

 

 

What I think is Malifaux biggest concern is that some models (or their stats I should rather say) are to good for the SS cost of the model. The prime example would be Rotten Belle - combine stupidly strong Lure ability with stupidly high range and Ca value (not to mention this has both suits already included in the stats) on the durable (8 wounds + Hard to Wound) and cheap model (5SS). Seriously? This combo means it is almost auto-include model in all Resser crews and when you have this kind of situation IMO it means there is something wrong

 

Just going to add to the disagreement on this.

belles are good but not great. I've won games just because my opponent used a belle (badly it probably has to be said).

There is a lot of skill in using them well. If they are just spending their time Luring your scheme running models, then they are probably tradign a 5 ss models ap for a different 5 ss models AP.

If they are luring more expensive models, then the potentailly get a bigger pay out, but at a much greater risk.

Some times they are utterly amazing. in games where the position of your opponents models really matters, they can win you a game. But they would probably do that on a Ca 6 about as well as they would on a Ca 8.

[jonahmaul]

Malifaux is certainly a game that is difficult for new players if playing experienced players.  The rules are a little complex but the game is difficult to Master.

 

As for card counting - we all do this a little (the easiest being remembering whether our or our opponents jokers have come out) but properly card counting is incredibly difficult to do.