Hans Abuse

[Stinkmunk]

Hans has made me nervous since the beta, not because I think that removing Upgrades is that amazingly powerful or unbalanced, but because creating an ability that can do something nothing else can do opens up a piece of design space that needs to be considered for all future models for the rest of the edition. Again, not a bad thing, but a risky thing.

My concern was that with Avatars being Upgrade cards Hans could simply remove them. For the most part, this is mitigated by the highest bidder ability on the front of his card... nice and clean.

But here comes Tara.

With Hans in a pine box, Tara has no problem using Whispers to action "Smile You Son of a..." and then using her two remaining actions to fire off Avatar-killing shots with her pistol, or even using Whispers again to borrow Hans' rifle. In this case, discarding cards won't save you.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I see potential for concern, but Tara being able to use smile you son if a, might get abusive, but it requires an 11 of crows or any other 11 and a stone, and the she gets two shots at sh 5, or to use Hans gun she needs an 8+ per shot before she even fires. I agree it could get out if hand, but i personally think there are more efficient combos for her to use.

Also, avatars haven't been tested or printed yet, so if the community can convince the developers that shooting avatars off is a bad idea they can always potentially be word with a clause to prevent their removal.

[Justin]

so if the community can convince the developers that shooting avatars off is a bad idea they can always potentially be word with a clause to prevent their removal.

There already is one in the avatar section in the book.

Also, Hans's ability isn't nearly as good as Hex was in 1.5 which did something similar. Not that it's entirely relevant, but this isn't new to 2.0.

[Stinkmunk]

Cool. That was really my only concern, the Avatar thing.

Really, it's not a bad combo anyway, since you can get Hans' full turn off before you pine box him and then let him get out for cheap the following turn to get a whole 'nother turn, you're not losing much of anything to make it happen. I'd consider Hans for Tara regardless.

[WindlordRyu]

So it only took a week for someone to figure out how to abuse Hans and potentially ruin the fun for everyone...

Want to play melee Lilith? Too bad you can't have 3" melee range then. Want to play growth instead? Nope, can't have that either.

Why is Raspy standing to far back? Oh you wanted to use Ice Mirror, sucks you don't have Broken Heart then.

So Perdita has a (0) action that lets her ignore cover, not anymore.

Guess what Somer, I just shot your entire family.

I hope that Smoke and Shadows didn't affect your crewbuilding too much, cause it's not there anymore.

[kross1]

Smile you son of a ..... is in my opinion is simply bad design. While I do play Hans quite a bit, I personally find it unsporting & refuse to use it. I said the same in the beta, & have seen absolutely no reason to change my opinion on it now.

Kross

[mythicFOX]

It looks to me like one of those things that's an issue on paper that I suspect will have a lot more limited application in practice.

Has anyone actually seen this do anything devastating in a game yet?

[Dracomax]

There already is one in the avatar section in the book.

Also, Hans's ability isn't nearly as good as Hex was in 1.5 which did something similar. Not that it's entirely relevant, but this isn't new to 2.0.

I disagree. in absolute terms, it might not be as powerful, but those abilities being hexed off in 1.5 weren't being paid for by SS. The fact I have to pay for upgrades and have the potential to have them taken away (from halfway across the board, no less) makes it feel much, much worse. and it has bad implications for any use of upgrades to balance underpowered masters, or for people using upgrades to play the master the way they want to. It basically goes against every intention we were given for including upgrades in the first place. I hate the very idea of abilities that can remove upgrades. It doesn't matter how rarely it comes up, or how easy it is to avoid. as someone having a hard time convincing local gamers that upgrades are ever worth taking, or that the upgrade system itself is a good thing, it does nothing but make their point stronger.

That being said, all of this was said in beta, and it didn't go away then. So I have to assume that Justin, Mack Dammit, and co., like it and want it to stay. I'll have to continue thinking it's a bad idea and wondering why more people don't have problems with it.

[Utterkhaos]

The way I see this ability is your spending 9ss to have him take out a total of a possible 6ss worth of upgrades from a master if and only if that master doesn't save two cards in their hand to cancel his action. Yes it could be annoying on non leaders but I don't see it being to bad.

[Helm]

I disagree. in absolute terms, it might not be as powerful, but those abilities being hexed off in 1.5 weren't being paid for by SS.

Presumably, the Master's SS Cache is determined by their relative strength. You were absolutely paying for that 1.5 ability; in the hypothetical situation that the master didn't come with it on the card, you would have had a higher Cache to play around with.

EDIT: Can't Hex off Masters, but the same thing applies to regular models. If it didn't have the positive/negative ability, it would cost less/more.

The real difference between the 1.5 Hex removal and the 2.0 upgrades removal is that certain abilities are protected in 2.0; the abilities on Upgrades aren't always vital to the functioning of the model. Hex could pick off the abilities that made the model tick on a basic level, as well as breaking the limitations of the Zoraida player's models.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Helm
Noticed mistake

[Mike3838]

I disagree. in absolute terms, it might not be as powerful, but those abilities being hexed off in 1.5 weren't being paid for by SS.

I disagree. They were clearly paid for in the Soulstone cost of the model that had the ability on its card.

Meh, this discussion has been had before I'm sure.

Edit: Ninja'ed with the exact same quote!

[Jewomie]

Has anyone actually seen this do anything devastating in a game yet?

actually, no. I have not.

I wont say he isn't good, or that this ability isn't powerful. but frankly the way I play, this doesn't threaten me too much. I typically don't take the maximum amount of upgrades. I only take what I think i'll use in a given match based on strats and schemes and the opponent's faction. (and usually master since my group is pretty open about who we are playing) plus if I don't have any cards in my hand, odds are i'd gladly give up the upgrade rather than loose my master right out.

It is a powerful ability, no doubt. but I think it takes a specific moment for it to be anything tide turning.

This also may be different depending on who picks the upgrade that is removed.

[zFiend]

"This also may be different depending on who picks the upgrade that is removed."

Who does pick it? Is it the player controlling Hans or the target?

[Jewomie]

I thought it said something to the effect of, "do no damage, instead the target model's controller discards one upgrade attached to this model"

something like that... but i'm at my office and don't have any of my stuff with me right now.

Edit: clicked "post" too soon.

That being said, i'm not certain as I have not used him, this trigger was read to me but not actually used last night.

[Csonti]

So it only took a week for someone to figure out how to abuse Hans and potentially ruin the fun for everyone...

Want to play melee Lilith? Too bad you can't have 3" melee range then. Want to play growth instead? Nope, can't have that either.

Why is Raspy standing to far back? Oh you wanted to use Ice Mirror, sucks you don't have Broken Heart then.

So Perdita has a (0) action that lets her ignore cover, not anymore.

Guess what Somer, I just shot your entire family.

I hope that Smoke and Shadows didn't affect your crewbuilding too much, cause it's not there anymore.

I'm not entirely sure whether you are serious or not but if you are, please consider the following:

- You don't have to stand on the middle of open terrain when this combo threatens you. And yes, Malifaux is meant to played with lots of terrain, many of which completely blocks LoS like forests, buildings etc. Raspy can even make Pillars where she wants.

- Tara shoots this with Sh5. Good luck with that against for example Lilith you mentioned first place!

- Tara doesn't ignore cover.

- Just to have a try on this Tara needs to burry Hans with somebody (AP), use the ability (AP and a 8+ card) and flip/cheat a 11+ :crows or spend an SS and a 11+ card (resources). And just then she can even TRY to hit with the gun.

- On top of the above, alternatively you could just use those mentioned resources to do harm on or even eliminate enemy models or use the AP's to achieve VP's and cards to defend yourself better.

So yes, maybe the combo has some potential in certain situations but as far as I can theoryfaux, this is far far away from "ruining the fun for everyone".

Edited August 23, 2013 by Csonti

[Boshea]

Cool. That was really my only concern, the Avatar thing.

Really, it's not a bad combo anyway, since you can get Hans' full turn off before you pine box him and then let him get out for cheap the following turn to get a whole 'nother turn, you're not losing much of anything to make it happen. I'd consider Hans for Tara regardless.

This is the problem with the combo. First we're talking about 3 models total, with 2-3 activations needed to set it up. So in a perfect world Hans needs an 11 Crow to get the condition then a decent card to shoot. The DM then needs a 5+ to pine box him. Tara then needs an 8 to Whisper, then an 11 Crow or 11+Stone to get the condition. She is then attacking with Sh5, or throwing more 8s to use Han's rifle instead. So were looking at needing half your hand at moderately high cards along with clearly telegraphing your plan to your opponent over two activations.

[sharpobjects]

I recently had a game versus Hans in a Zoraida crew. During a long turn 3 of models attacking each other Zoraida obeyed Hans for a walk and then again for a ranged shot. The turn continued and in my mind I thought Hans activated because of the walk action and then the shot he took and I forgot that it was actually two obeyed actions. I have not erased my V1.5 experience of one obey per turn from Zoraida.

Anyway I was holding two cards for the entire turn and after what I thought was Hans activation I used one and then my opponent activated Hans right after that. I knew I had just made a huge mental mistake. Hans removed a very important upgrade and it sucked but I still went on to win the game 7-6.

The upgrades like Nexus of Power and Decaying aura out there I think its good to have a model available to everyone that can potentially counter them. More games need to be played but I don't have a problem with the ability as of right now.

[Myth]

I disagree. in absolute terms, it might not be as powerful, but those abilities being hexed off in 1.5 weren't being paid for by SS. The fact I have to pay for upgrades and have the potential to have them taken away (from halfway across the board, no less) makes it feel much, much worse.

You didn't pay SS to buy models in 1.5?

While I do understand some complaints about upgrade-removal, this is the one that I really, really don't get. If Hans spends his turn removing a 2 SS upgrade, that somehow ruins the game. If Hans spends his turn killing a 10 SS model, however, that apparently isn't a problem.

Now, I can see the complaint about it happening from across the board, and potentially with no recourse. The final implementation of the Focus/Sniper approach is something I'm not exactly a fan of myself. But the idea that losing upgrades is gamebreaking - but killing an upgraded model and removing it that way is not - just doesn't quite make sense to me.

For myself, I used Hans (and saw him used) in a lot of games during the testing period, and I don't think even once was it worthwhile (or even an option) to have him take out an upgrade rather than just take down an enemy. (Or damage and slow them, or turn off their melee, or try to burn some enemy cards by targeting a Leader, etc.)

I am sure there are situations where it is worthwhile and you have the cards to make it happen. I am sure there are even some situations where the loss of a specific upgrade will really, really suck. I don't like the idea of my Rapid Growth list losing an upgrade and suddenly not working. But the problem there isn't with Hans - it is with making Rapid Growth an upgrade, because even without Hans in the equation, I can just as easily lose the upgrade if the model carrying it is killed.

As it is, given Han's limitations on targeting Masters, and given how little use I've seen from his upgrade-removal ability, I'm not too concerned about the effect it will have on gameplay. Now, the Tara copying idea is a neat trick, and does make Masters more vulnerable to having upgrades shot off. But it requires quite a bit of set up, and devoting that much effort from your crew (including most of your Masters turn) in order to try and remove one or maybe two upgrades.... well, doesn't seem all that efficient to me, when another crew might use that activity to simply kill some enemy models.

[Helm]

The upgrades like Nexus of Power and Decaying aura out there I think its good to have a model available to everyone that can potentially counter them. More games need to be played but I don't have a problem with the ability as of right now.

This. Nexus of Power in particular has troubled me for a while, and I can picture it being much easier to slip up when balancing Upgrades than when creating models (due to their innate potential for combos for a start).

While I don't much like the idea of a ubiquitous model for all factions for removing Upgrades (one or two options per faction feels more flavourful for me), it's great to have someone waiting in the wings for when something gets broken.

[DeleteAccount]

I'm in the "hate upgrade removal" camp, so the less I see of that the better. I can live with Hanz since he has to go through a lot of hoops to do it, but it's not something I'd like to see extended.

As for Nexus of power and other problem upgrades, I'd dare say that's a problem with the upgrade itself being too good, not the need of a solitary merc to counter it, I don't play warmachine anymore, I have no interest to go back to the "thou must field Eyriss" days.

[dgraz]

The only thing I truly hate about it is as Dracomax said. It breaks the upgrade system.

Saying that you can buy upgrades to play models the way you want to....or that upgrades will be used to 'fix' weaker models then introducing a model that removes that is just bad.

But, as was also said, this has all been said before.....including by me. So I won't talk about it anymore.

I loathed Jack Daw in 1.5.....thought he was stupid and broken and ruined the game for me....if I saw Jack I just wouldn't play......my LGS guys knew that so no one played with Jack.

Hans will just be my new Jack Daw.

[Fenton Crack]

I guess the reason I'm not as bothered by the upgrade removal is that I'd prefer Hans to use that on my models than something like Decapitate or Headshot. As has been mentioned, those need cards to "buy out of" as well, and they also remove upgrades, in that they not only remove one, they remove all upgrades since the model is now dead. I'd rather have a neutered model than a dead one. Although I see people's concerns in that he can do his dirty from such a distance (the coward).

[rancor709]

upgrade removal is a delicate subject that is a bit like discussing politics or your spouses weight. On the whole its an odd ability to have within the confines of the game without some sort of mechanic to reattach that removed upgrade. If shot the upgrade off but the upgrade than landed as a marker that could be interacted with similar to the hat marker on seamus would have been as big a deal.

Personally i'd rather just kill your kitted out and upgraded model than shoot an upgrade off you as with the former I remove all your upgrades as the model holding them is now kaput. this works better as I'm also denying you your model.

Its one of those things that I hope people come to terms with on both sides as some are going to like it, some aren't and others are going to be in the middle with it. does it really do anything earth shattering no. But I see the potential spoiled milk face when the upgrade you bought is shoot off your model before you even get to use it.

[Helm]

As for Nexus of power and other problem upgrades, I'd dare say that's a problem with the upgrade itself being too good, not the need of a solitary merc to counter it, I don't play warmachine anymore, I have no interest to go back to the "thou must field Eyriss" days.

I agree absolutely (minus the Warmachine bit, which I've never played).

I just worry about the Upgrade system sometimes. With a new model, there's a guarantee of a pretty long design process, even if not all of it is spent in playtesting. With an Upgrade... it's just a couple of lines of text with a cost which simply isn't as granular as a whole model.

The best-case scenario is that Upgrades come out as balanced overall, but if the likes of the Twins could appear in 1.5, I'm sure a similar analogue will eventually appear in the 2.0 Upgrades. It's just nice to know that there's a form of insurance for those times, no matter how poor.

[Drool_bucket]

I love Hans. I use him in almost all my games, the concept of a sniper fits into my playstyle. I was very happy when his final version came out.... he got his range back and his triggers were slightly toned down.

I am also from the camp of hating upgrade removal as a mechanic, but like that they toned it down. In the many games I've played with Hans I've never even tried it, because it's not worth the effort or not available as a "on table" tactic.

Now, onto the OP regarding Tara utilizing Hans to accomplish his feat with more protection. First off, great, if this one action make Tara an NPE to people I'm not sure why you are still playing Malifaux. 1.5, and not just Hex, had plenty of abilities that Masters could pull off that were shocking and NPEs... I just think NPE is just tossed around too much. Masters do mean things to people. And if Tara has to waste a lot of resources and an 8SS model to removal an upgrade.... cool, that's a nice combo and credit to the player to pulling if off, and shame on the opponent for letting them do it.

I honestly see this as a non-issue. Wyrd toned down Upgrade removal. Still part of the game, still gonna happen, but never particularly option. And if a Master can figure out a way to get it done more often, oh well. Better lose one Upgrade than have Sonnia blow up half your crew because she can....