dgraz Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 I do get tired of certain things though... Yeah..........me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 I tend to agree that at least a few of the previous editions "issues" have been hidden by "band aid fixes" in the new. I also agree that once players discover the new potent builds/ combinations issues (old or new) will become more prevalent and obvious. Unfortunately this is a normal part of all games or new editions as they grow, even the most rigorous play testing cant uncover everything (hell software developers employ/ solicit thousands and they still require patching after release). Coming from a competitive stand point you usually only counted on getting to turn 4 anyway so for me anyway not much has changed. ---------- Post added at 10:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 PM ---------- I got to sit down and have drinks with guys who I really only know online this weekend. I think it really helped us all, and if we can, as a forum, move to a "brandy sniffing and academic discussion" mood, we're going to be doing great. I definitely appreciated being able to commandeer some of your time at the con (ok well perhaps more than my share). Still looking for the picture of you with your super fruity drink at Hardrock (to bad they didn't have the twizzle straw and little umbrella like we asked for). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 I was on the side of Swarms winning every game at the start of the beta. I truly believed that the extra AP and Activations would be game-winning........that higher cost models just couldn't do enough to counteract that............. I haven't seen any evidence of it and I've been watching very closely. This would be a game-breaker for me........it just isn't there. Pretty much this. It's something which I kept a close eye on throughout development. But we playtested it many times in office and I kept a close eye on any battle report pertaining to it, and I simply haven't seen any evidence that swarms have any real advantage. The theory sounds good, but the evidence just isn't there. Sure, a list with 14 Bayou Gremlins CAN be good. It might win. But it also might not. It's just another viable list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Shine Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 Im really curious what celeb voice my posts get read in now though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 Im really curious what celeb voice my posts get read in now though Christopher Walken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorbad Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 Let me see if I understand the concern correctly. Because the game is now shorter than it used to be crews aren't scoring as many points/winning by as big a margin so we think that the game is more balances because the game appears closer. But its just hiding some crews being better than others and, while they might not win big all the time, have an advantage and win more often? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_was_like_you Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 Let me see if I understand the concern correctly. Because the game is now shorter than it used to be crews aren't scoring as many points/winning by as big a margin so we think that the game is more balances because the game appears closer. But its just hiding some crews being better than others and, while they might not win big all the time, have an advantage and win more often? Sounds like what he may have meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 OK, trying to be productive. Where has the OP seen this? What games has he had lately that have made him feel like this? What crews were being used? Is it an issue associated to game length or is ir maybe an issue with the crew itself? It's nice to have feelings and impressions, but in the current environment of testing, it lacks weight without some player based experience, so please, share the matches where this has happened and the crews that seem to be able to get the most and the least out of the 5 turn dinamic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack.Martin Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 It's less that he has concrete evidence and thinks there is a huge problem right now, and more that he wants to examine a possible issue in detail deep enough that we can be certain to avoid the pitfall in the future. At least that's my take-away from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hackdZ Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 I don't think anyone really needs to worry As others have said, the wave 1 models seem fairly well balanced. Not too concerned here. While the fact that Wyrd staff have posted in this thread multiple times proves they're aware of our (OP's) concerns, and while no one is infallible, I'm sure they'll do their best to prevent any of the shenanigans we've posted about. It really is a wait and see thing. We'll know more when we get a look at the wave 2 models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausplosions Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 Im really curious what celeb voice my posts get read in now though Apparently mine is/was Barney the Dinosaur.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 Apparently mine is/was Barney the Dinosaur.... Could be worse, it could have been Charlie Chaplin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracomax Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 Apparently mine is/was Barney the Dinosaur.... Huh. I've just been reading it in Gilbert Godfrey, myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PierceSternum Posted August 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 Some things make more sense to me now... Had friends at Gencon and have seen pictures of terrain. If that is representative of the terrain that people are using, then its different than our reading of the rules and I guess I could see how a swarm could get gunned down by a ranged crew before it could engage every model on the table while also taking objectives. We can play with less terrain and see how things run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracomax Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 That is certainly less than 1/3 of the table... of course, aren't Malifaux tournaments notorious for not having enough terrain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuttleboy Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 Dibs on Morgan Freeman's voice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzilla Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 I wouldnt say less than 1/3. Buildings look about 9" wide so line them up along one board edge and add the tree bases on as well and your almost at the magic 33%. Where it differs is that most of that is taken up by big bulky buildings instead of walls, rocks, cliffs, bushes and all the other detritus that makes up most other boards. You end up with a really open board rather than one with very tight lines of sight and lots of things to hinder movement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rancor709 Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 Dibs on Bill Shatner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracomax Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 Also, Dibs on Benedict Cumberbatch's voice. Dragon. It's only logical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicFOX Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 Some things make more sense to me now... Had friends at Gencon and have seen pictures of terrain. [ATTACH=CONFIG]15094[/ATTACH] If that is representative of the terrain that people are using, then its different than our reading of the rules and I guess I could see how a swarm could get gunned down by a ranged crew before it could engage every model on the table while also taking objectives. We can play with less terrain and see how things run. While a little sparse and not perfect by any means that table isn't too bad, although I've seen some tragic tournament table setups before now. Area covered by terrain is less important than how it impacts on movement and LOS, while that's related to surface area it's not a perfect representation. There are fairly few DZ to DZ LOS lines to worry about. The buildings are probably a little on the big size though. I'd strongly council you to avoid solving problems you think will exist before you've played a few games and experienced the issue first hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nix Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 That is certainly less than 1/3 of the table... of course, aren't Malifaux tournaments notorious for not having enough terrain? This year the rumor was the terrain was built by Mack and Justin and provided for the events, which is very different from past years. I was surprised to see the terrain as well and talk about it a bit on my blog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_was_like_you Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 I wouldnt say less than 1/3. Buildings look about 9" wide so line them up along one board edge and add the tree bases on as well and your almost at the magic 33%. Where it differs is that most of that is taken up by big bulky buildings instead of walls, rocks, cliffs, bushes and all the other detritus that makes up most other boards. You end up with a really open board rather than one with very tight lines of sight and lots of things to hinder movement 6" x 6" Terraclips buildings, if that affects your math any... On that board, I'd hope for a corner deployment, but don't tournaments stipulate standard deployment zones? Still plently of blocks to direct LoS, and if your model can see and shoot mine, mine can return the favor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 I agree the terrain is quite low. Those are 6" square buildings, without ways of gettign to the top. They total 1 square foot. The forests don't total a second, and the train track isn't a 3rd, so you have less than 3 sqaure foot. I've played on worse though. And you can have a reasonable game on them. I would have moved the buildings a little nearer the middle personally... It does change the balence of some crews. Its part of the reason Perdita was often thought by beginners to be too powerful, as they had too little terrain. The type of terrain makes a difference, when I play around a friends house over half the terrain is only ht 1, or ht 2 and hills allow you to see over, so games there have high line of sight to consider. Rivers in particular are a huge boon to shooting, as they don't prevent lines of sight, but do reduce melee ability by slowing down movement. But can still fit on the 3rd of the table of terrain. Have you played a game to prove the abuse of swarms yet? Is there a swarm list that you've found will beat any allcomers at any mission? Which crews do you think are penalised by it being 5 turns so the game "ending early"? I thought swarm lists would do better in games with less terrain myself, movement penalties probably hurt them more, and they often need line of sight to tie up enemy models or the ability to avoid bottle necks and make use of their numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_was_like_you Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 If it's a swarm of unimpeded models, the issue of movement penalties goes away, but as we don't have specific swarm list to run this theoryfaux on the table, we'll have to wait and see. Even if we had a list, then it wouldn't take much effort to make lists specifically to counter it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted August 20, 2013 Report Share Posted August 20, 2013 Apparently mine is/was Barney the Dinosaur.... With that perspective, I don't feel as bad about Nick Cage That does look like a sparse table. Our group plays with much more little stuff........only 2"-4"....to provide cover and such. Some of it is impassable also which hinders even Unimpeded crews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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