sexist???

[Forar]

1: Thanks for recognizing that.

2: It was a funny image, but a lot of people have this mistaken view that sexism=misogyny, when it's actually more along the lines of 'the banality of evil'. It's indifference. It's a lack of empathy, a sense that "I don't see it as a problem, so it's probably just an overreaction." that many seem to have. Many people aren't hating women... they just aren't thinking about how their views and experiences might differ.

3: Nobody is saying that Wyrd is rolling in giant piles of cheesecake. I play Guild as well, and yes, Sonnia is nicely curvy in a fitted coat. The Viks, on the other hand, have thongs showing. Nobody is saying that we can't have sexy models, and hell, Wyrd even has some (stereotypically) non-sexy female sculpts.

4: Assuming you're referring to my point about the sculpts, it was a joke. But I do fail to see what being a sculpt has to do with anything on limitations. Sonnia is a sculpt, the Librarian is a sculpt, you yourself point out that there can be attractive figures that aren't wearing impressively little given their occupation (really, Female desperate Merc? The guy is wearing a walking arsenal but you need to show off your mid-riff?). Every figure is an aesthetic choice, some of those will be more sexualized than others.

Edit: and directed to the point of the thread in general, again, it isn't about trying for sweeping changes over night. But just having this conversation, pointing out aspects that might've been missed or ignored, is productive. Making people think about the matter, really think about it, is productive.

[GKP]

Just to clarify, so I'm not misunderstood, I was actually talking about the aRasputina argument a few pages back, when I talked about sculpts.

[The Godlyness]

i Guess i fail to see, any relevance to anything. i play this game or any game cause i enjoy it or it has an engaging story so on and so forth.

To dig and say oh would you look at that another scuplt of a hourglass figure with Enlarged Bust and purdy face. <--(if you thought that was about a women you are probably sexist) if the Abilities were junk and i did not enjoy playing the model i would not. Same if it was a Fat balding (wo)man. Sexism does not exist in anything unless you bring it to the table. Feminism is the same way. course everything i said will be taken out of context and that is fine i am wearing my flame retardant uniform today.

Do you need help with that heavy box. No why you think i need help from a man psh.

um no i was being polite since you were struggling.

**** off you misogynistic bigot male.

...I would offer to get the door but clearly you got this

who is in the wrong? was the man for offering to help just because he saw a person struggling or the woman for jumping to conclusions? or the guy for not opening the door at the end.

now i am not trying to say it does not exist, But it is a double standard.

"i Want equal rights"

"and i want maternity leave"

"but you cant give birth to kids"

"how bout Paternity leave"

"why you did not give birth to a child"

"so you don't like the rights you have now cause they treat you unfairly and unjust? or is that the advantages that you have are taken for granted and you wish to have more. yet when i want equal rights since i am guy i am bigot or sexist?"

"...."

main thing is if you want sexism to be there it is there. if you see A'Tina as whatever you think besides what and ice golem stat card should be to each their own. but don't preach it saying i am offended by that model it should be banned, and the makers sued for corrupting the minds of our children. if you don't like it don't play or buy it. if your offended by that statement then work to a position of power where you can change it.

But that Statement goes with anything, people would rather sit idle and Complain then actually implement change.

see this post has nothing to do with anything. just like this thread.

[Mehter]

That heavy object/door thing happened to me once with a neighbor in an apartment. Then the same woman at a later time wanted me to kill a spider because "eeek its a spider!"

I shouldn't generalize feminism based on just her, but its really hard not to.

As for relevance, I got nothin'

Edited May 18, 2013 by Mehter

[Poko]

TheGodlyness, I think you win a golden-plated copy of the Icegolem (either version) for the Biggest Strawman of Them All.

Speaking of which, amusingly enough it's not the feminazis, stupid as they are and harmful as they are, that are the greatest opponents of the paternity leave, but the "traditional values" people who have a clear-cut idea of what each gender's roles are and ANY attempt to change them is seen as a direct threat to their power (as they inevitably are old men).

[Jonas Albrecht]

Also, point of order: Paternity Leave exists.

[mangustheix]

I think this may be of interest to anyone who is concerned about sexism in gaming, technology and in general.

https://www.upworthy.com/a-ted-talk-that-might-turn-every-man-who-watches-it-into-a-feminist-its-pretty-fantastic-7

---------- Post added at 09:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 PM ----------

Also, point of order: Paternity Leave exists.

And in some countries it is shared equally between both mother and father, and the decision is up to them.

[Poko]

Also, point of order: Paternity Leave exists.

Not in every country in the world, no.

[The Godlyness]

TheGodlyness, I think you win a golden-plated copy of the Icegolem (either version) for the Biggest Strawman of Them All.

Strawman? i am quite unfamiliar with the term.

no joke. not trolling.

been around the block a few times but still don't know what that means.

but if i get a gold plated trophy i am happy i guess.

Not all states, or countrys give paternity leave, heck if they do not all jobs allow.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Not in every country in the world, no.

True, but this is largely a "what about the menz??!!" distraction anyway.

[PierceSternum]

Whats wrong with being sexy?

(already done? did I miss it? I cannot miss a Spinal Tap reference)

[pugwhan]

Maybe in 2.0 they will make all Masters gender neutral.

I hope not

[i_was_like_you]

Sex sells. Not just to men, either. Women do find dressing in a manner they deem sexy or alluring to be empowering. The same could hold true for the Masters they choose to run crews of in Malifaux. I'm sure Colette and her showgirls have worked their magic on ladies who had never played a wargame before, and who may have been off put by hulking spes marinez. Other Masters also have their appeal to each of us, male and female alike (which is not to exclude any other gender roles). We all have our preferences.

Another related factor is cosplay. I've seen pics of a Colette cosplayer, but I can't judge just by the pic whether she actually plays Malifaux, and, even to assume she does, whether she even plays Colette. She might prefer an entirely different playstyle, a different master, a different faction, but she decided that she wanted to dress as Colette. She certainly was impressive in that role. Great costume, great energy. She genuinely looked happy with the results.

I, myself, could love playing Colette, but when it comes to a costume, I don't think I have what it takes to fill her stockings. Plenty of people cross / blur gender lines when it comes to costumes, but I feel I'd do disservice to Colette as a character if I tried to don her apparel. Now, in a group, if we had a gal for Colette, I might pull a Corporal Klinger to be a performer in drag, complete with terrible 5 o'clock shadow.

[pixelante]

Malifaux is a character driven game, character is very important to the look and feel of Malifaux which is why you will see a named character in charge of the crews.

As for the abundance of female characters leaders in the game I think such a decision should be applauded even though some people regard the miniatures as risque.

[Manic Mouse]

As for the abundance of female characters leaders in the game I think such a decision should be applauded even though some people regard the miniatures as risque.

I agree. Malifaux has an almost 50/50 split between male and female masters, and the girls kick a lot of ass. Some models are sexy, like Lady J, but others like Perdita, Pandora, Zorida or Misaki aren't at all. Yamaziko is an old woman.

I also have to agree with those who think this is a non-issue. If you look hard enough you can probably find sexism, racism or whatever else you want in pretty much anything. What you have to ask yourself is why are you looking? I could say that chess is sexist because the Queen is the most powerful piece on the board, while the king is the weakest and is nothing but a liability, needing to be protected.

Malifaux is harmless fun, it is good natured and there is nothing overtly sexist about anything in it unless you consider the existence of attractive females sexist. If anything it shows girls they are every bit as good as the boys with all the strong female masters. It does not objectify women, it does not imply that women are inferior. I also believe that Malifaux is an order of magnitude more popular with females than any other wargame.

[Barbagianni]

No male model has the irresistible talent.

[The Godlyness]

they should give tuco irresistible, male vampire come on you know he needs it, get rid of that terrifying or heck give him both.

[Poko]

Perdita

Are we talking about the women in cropped shirt, midriff measured in acres, and low-riding, hip-hugging jeans?

Pandora

Again, midriff from hell, the poor demon will get an awful cold one day.

Misaki

Slim, athletic lady in an asian outfit, the very definition of not sexy.

Then we have Zoraida and Yamaziko. So females in Malifaux either are perfect-looking sexbombs, old hags, or plain dead. I guess Rusty Alice isn't actually that sexualized, but of all the Masters, even the lady in a fur coat and hat happen to be showing legs in stockings. I'd say something IS afoot with that. Pretty much the same is going on with male masters-either they're physically atractive or at least "ripped", or they're old men or cripples. At least there's more variation in the minion males, with some being decidedly portly fellows.

Speaking of Rasputina, it seems Wyrd did notice how silly and not in character her model was, seeing as the new artwork for her shows her clad head to toe in fur and buttoned up tightly.

I also believe that Malifaux is an order of magnitude more popular with females than any other wargame.

Sorry, but 40k is. Ironically, it seems it's the Tyranids that are most popular with females from my limited experience, mostly because they are devoid of male power fantasy aspect and cheescake.

[Iron Heel]

@ The Godlyness:

Your paternity leave comments are leaving me scratching my head. You're saying that feminists are against such things?

We are in a culturally funky liminal period regarding what is expected and respectful and lots of men in our society express frustration around it. Did any of these things happen to you or someone you know?

@ Forar:

Very salient points.

I am very heartened by that fact that this discussion exists on the Wyrd forums. It seems to come up more frequently and vigorously on this forum than for other games.

Looking from the local player base and what I've read on the boards, Malifaux has a wider appeal to female players (seemingly compared to almost none in many games). I think that this is good for the game, good for the hobby, and should be promoted for reasons both social and financial. Women have $; Wyrd should get some of it. :-) I think that my gaming experiences are enriched when I play a in a diverse environment (I am a white, middle aged, male gamer for the record).

I've read things on various sculpts in this thread...here are my $0.02.

There are times when making a figure "sexy" seems appropriate and may not even be "sexist" in as much as the figures are not lurid. Colette's and Seamus' crews as well as beckoners come to mind. They are in professions within the game story where having somewhat provocative dress is appropriate and fitting the time period/setting.

Then you have some figures in other careers; I don't know any miners or steamfitters, but I am guessing that Taylor's outfit doesn't really contribute to getting her job done. I've never understood why combat-oriented folks wear heels! It is just dumb.

:Paralyzed_Puppet:

[Joel]

Sorry, but 40k is.

per capita? I doubt it.

[Sway]

Perdita is wearing a low cut v-neck belly shirt. Pandora is wearing a corset and a "skirt" that is more like a loin cloth. Old Misaki had a similarly side-less dress and her cleavage is popping out. New Misaki, as with most of the new models, is much better.

Granted, I would classify these models as "sexy" not quite into the realm of "objectifying". But even so, they're unnecessarily sexy. They don't need to have visible cleavage to be strong women. And as Forar said before, Malifaux is a tiny piece of a much larger mosaic of sexism. The more Wyrd can do to lessen their place in that mosaic, the better. They're doing well. Much, MUCH better than most miniature companies. But they're far from perfect.

And I should say, I believe that Wyrd have gotten much better about this as time has gone on. Yes, the proportions of some of the plastics are odd, but the models are wearing appropriate amounts of clothing.

EDIT: It seems in my haste to reply I missed an entire page of comments and got ninja'd by folks from 5 hours ago...

Edited May 19, 2013 by Sway

[Uncle Caveman]

This is still going on? It's a game made for nerds. Nerds like ladies in costumes. The costumes work out better if filled by someone who is aesthetically pleasing. Plus, they're plastic. Objectify them. They are, after all, objects. If Any of the aforementioned models were real people, would they sue Wyrd for forcing them to dress like that? Probably. I guess we'll just have to wait for that day.

[dgraz]

I find it difficult to discuss sexism. People cry foul because the one Vik has a thong showing.......or because Lady J has cleavage. I can walk down any city street in the summer and see dozens of women dressed the same way. Thousands upon thousands of women and men dress to be "sexy"....and many thousands more don't......who am I to judge?

Topless day is coming up in August........where thousands of women all around the world will be walking around wearing absolutely nothing above the waist........sexism....bleh.

[Manic Mouse]

So females in Malifaux either are perfect-looking sexbombs, old hags, or plain dead.

Translation: some people will never be happy.

Pretty much the same is going on with male masters-either they're physically atractive or at least "ripped", or they're old men or cripples. At least there's more variation in the minion males, with some being decidedly portly fellows.

So how exactly is it sexist if, by your own admission, the males get the same treatment? Maybe it's just, you know, the style of the game? One that perhaps shouldn't be corralled by the thought police when it isn't doing anything malicious.

I mean we're talking about a fantasy world, you want average people why? Maybe a new master for 2E should be an accountant, with no combat abilities at all since those are equally unrealistic. You flip cards, with his totem a calculator, to do the Guild's taxes. By yourself.

I play games like Malifaux to escape reality, because they aren't limited by reality. Why would you want to forcefully insert reality? It's like saying you don't like great works of art because there are very few average people in them. That's kind of the point.

The characters are caricatures, which is why they are either super attractive or super unattractive. It's the entire point. You might as well start complaining about super heros because real people don't have super powers.

Malifaux is a tiny piece of a much larger mosaic of sexism.

Or perhaps Malifaux is just a silly little fun game of plastic figurines that doesn't need to be ruined by politicking and taking things way too seriously.

There are women in the world being shot for getting an education. Having their genitals mutilated. Being beaten daily by their husbands. Generally being treated as sub-human. That's sexism. A plastic model in a tabletop game showing a bit of tit? The only people losing sleep over that are the white knights (and getting a kick of moral superiority over it too). No female is crying herself to sleep over Lady J's bust (and relative the popularity of Malifaux with females supports this). Heck, toys aimed specifically AT women like Barbies/Bratz etc are "attractive" and just as bad as Malifaux. Millions of women every day decide to wear things more revealing than what Malifaux models wear. This is a complete non-issue.

Topless day is coming up in August........where thousands of women all around the world will be walking around wearing absolutely nothing above the waist........sexism....bleh.

Exactly. Can we get back to arguing over rules and balance please?

Edited May 19, 2013 by Manic Mouse

[Poko]

So how exactly is it sexist if, by your own admission, the males get the same treatment?

Sexism isn't limited solely to females, you do realize that?

I mean we're talking about a fantasy world, you want average people why?

You mistake average with varied. As it is, there's very little in the way of variety of body types. Ironically, a soulstone-revenuer master might be hell of a lot fun to play around with. Lucius is kinda there already.

There are women in the world being shot for getting an education. Having their genitals mutilated. Being beaten daily by their husbands. Generally being treated as sub-human. That's sexism.

Ah, the "as long as it's not a[extreme form], it's not [form of discrimination]" argument.

Also, just so we're clear, I personally enjoy the models, because I do enjoy the feminine shape. I can also aknowledge that it is a form, very, very minor one, of sexism. That's why I'm not calling to remove all the previous models, and replace them with sweater-wearing versions in sensible wooly pants, because it's a very minor kind of "issue". However, some variety wouldn't be amiss I'm sure. As I said, it's clear Wyrd has that idea, seeing how the new Raspy design is no longer stripperific. I guess they realized making everything sexy just doesn't fit all the chars.