my no-fun experience

[fishtank]

played a very one-sided game last night.

he had: Zoraida, twins, 2 stitched, mature neph.

I had: sonnia, p.flame, sam, 2 Witchlings, executioner, guardian.

less than ideal crew for me admittedly, but I wanted to use mr clawd because it's been a while and it felt like a heavy melee dude would be handy. flame was merely there because the other stuff came to 30ss and I didn't like the idea of leaving a stone.

I flipped contain power, stone to turf war.

it went downhill from there. despite my attempts to block los Zoraida got a thin line through terrain to mr claws. conduit, hex. nothing I could do.

the stitched came forward, couldn't get near them before they could gamble a witchling and executioner to death. mature smacked a witchling with a diving charge. I burned all my cards trying to burn up lilitu, who simply healed. I was down to four models and surrounded, and sam was conduited. we gave up because fir the first time in Malufaux, it felt like there was no fun or strategy anywhete. the neverborn were just too strong. Zoraida never moved, just using conduit for everything.

I've faced a list minus the twins with a doppelganger and tots before. we had good games.

so, what could I have done to more effectively combat this list, while maintaining the Sonnia box as a base (I own neither Hoffman or any Ortegas). I have no idea how to deal with the level of threats I faced.

[Mike3838]

I don't see anything wrong with your crew selection to be honest. Seems like a solid Sonnia crew.

We probably need a bit more detail on the game to understand what went wrong. You haven't told us what Sonnia, Sam and the Guardian got up to all game? What were the schemes?

For me your biggest mistake though was ending the game. You had 4 models left and gave up... seems strange. That's still over 50% of your starting models, you still had your Master, and Malifaux games can be won by a single model sometimes.

Mike

[Mike3838]

Expecting to never ever give Zoraida LOS to any of your models is unrealistic. She's going to see you at some point, or she'll just fly to sonewhere she can. Conduit is part of how she works, and unfortunately you just have to weather the storm of Poison damage and Obey's coming your way as best you can.

Mature Nephilim vs Witchling is a one sided fight. The Mature is a combat monster that can wreck even masters in melee, the Witchling didn't have a chance. He'd had made good bait though, to damage the Mature with his explosion on dying, with Sam standing by in support to finish the Mature off with a flaming headshot.

Why so much effort to kill Lilitu? Sounds like she was a low priority target compared to the Mature and Stitched rampaging your lines?

Mike

[fishtank]

We ended because it was late, i was exhausted and the game was simply not fun. there was no challenge for my opponent. I had Turf war (as I mentioned)...I THINK he had Contain power. Schemes I can't remember at all.

The Mature was flanking around the side and would have become a colossal threat next turn, after the Executioner and Witchling I'd put on that side had been picked off for no return on my investment (I think I managed to get two points on a Stitched).I never had a shot at him.

I figured removing Lilitu was the key to taking care of both her and Lelu. I tried burning her but was just out of range turn 2, and turn 3 I just couldn't get enough shots on her after burning my handhaving to go through the alluring, and stop Sam from being Obeyed into killing Sonnia (most of my hands were two high cards and crap, and I wasn't flipping quite enough. I lost so many duels by 1 or two as it was).

The Guardian was spamming his protective abilities and blocking LoS as much as possible. Sam's job was originally going to be hanging back and trying to take out anything that entered my turf, but I realised I was going to have to bring him forward to shoot stuff, and then Conduit, and then Lure...

I made some mistakes, but could see no way to put any sort of beating on the twins before they were in my face, because they were using flight/float to get in cover all the time.

Edited November 11, 2011 by fishtank

[Sholto]

One of the ways of minimising the effects of Obey is to keep your dangerous models out of LOS of anything you don't want them shooting or charging. This is not always possible, of course, but Sonnia does have Flame Walls to play with. It isolates the models, but it does mitigate the harm they will do to you.

Also remember that Sammael has Hunter, so ignores Cover.

I don't play against Zoraida very often, and never against the Twins, but is there any scope for turning Voodoo Dolls into Stalkers?

[keiichiro]

And Sonnia's counterspell... That can stop those spells from tagging your guys. If I'd have remembered that in a game vs neverborn, I would've aboslutely murdered a nephilim and had a clear line to killing off Lilith.

Seems to me like Neverborn can be sorta easy-button. Guild can take them down, though... you just have to remember every little thing your models can do.

[Adran]

You could keep the conduited model near to Sonnia and use her advanced counterspell to stop those obeys. Especially if you have a hand of poor cards.

I would have been tempted to use the guardian to protect what ever has been conduited, his healing flip each turn should cancel out the poison damage.

In fact, letting him get a conduit on the executioner, and then protecting him, allowing the poison to take him to 1 wound but no futher, as he'll get them all back when he kills something might work well.

The stiched do make the executioner less effective. but unless they are advancing very slowly and Fogging every turn you should be able to get them before they get you.

Whilst hunter won't increase the distance into the fog Sammuel can see, it will still ignore cover penalties.

There are certainly things that you can do to face this sort of crew, anotehr popular one is adding an austringer as a long ranged threat that doesn't need LOS

[fishtank]

I've had the Austringer in the list before, instead of the Executioner. Just felt like a change this time round.

I had the Guardian looking after Sonnia, because I've discovered that she needs to be reasonably close for her offensive spells, but if she gets too close she goes squish in a hurry. (Previous games have seen the mature Nephillim going straight at her)

I keep coming up with things I could have done differently, but little to combat the twins. Also feels like I'd have to play flawlessly to stand a chance.

[Lucidicide]

I don't know how you feel about it, but I really like taking the Peacekeeper vs Neverborn. Immune to Influence can be helpful in many cases. The chance for a free walk can be big because Neverborn are often fast. Armor is helpful because Neverborn tend to pump out a lot of Wds. And then paired claws with Crit stike is always nice.

Schemes definitely can make a huge difference in what you feel you need to accomplish, and therefore how you play the crew.

It's hard to say more, though. I would honestly recommend doing a very similar game again and seeing if it goes the same way. If it does (and starts to), maybe take some notes about it so we can get more detail on here. That will allow us to help more.

[Stonedog-7]

My main recommendation, keeping in mind i haven't played against Zoraida but have been up against the twins on several occasions, is to blitz Lelu rather than Lilitu... Sure you still face Lure and a potential Rg4 paralyze but Lelu is a big melee threat to neutralize, worlds easier to hit and once Lilitu starts taking the odd point it makes life easier to put her down

Out of the rest the only thing i face really is the Mature, and the only way i've found to deal with that is to bait it and bring it down fast

[nerdelemental]

Additionally:

If Zoraida never moved and just used Conduit all game then it sounds like you have drastically too little terrain on the board. In a normal board set up I cannot envision getting a clear line of sight to anything on turn 1 or even turn 2 unless the opponent does something stupid. That will help quite a bit if the board forces Zoraida to put her neck out just a little.

Although, when I'm running Zoraida, I agree that I can step out and LoS something for a VDoll, and next turn hide behind a big tree or something, but that's Turn 1 getting up to the middle of the board, turn 2 using 2 AP to make the doll, and turn 3 stepping out of the way.

[Sholto]

Get some Terraclips Buildings and see Zoraida try to get LOS on your models indoors

[Fetid Strumpet]

Well, if you get conduit put on one of your models don't forget if a witchling is in range it can use dispel magic to get it off you.

Also in my experience if you are going to try to kill one of the twins go for Lelu. Lilitu is strong, don't get me wrong, but Lelu in most cases is the more dangerous one and he is easier to kill as you don't have to go through the irresistible flips to target him. Just make sure if you do go for a twin you focus fire on it until it is dead or it will just heal back up pretty much by the end of the turn.

[Lucidicide]

Well, if you get conduit put on one of your models don't forget if a witchling is in range it can use dispel magic to get it off you.

I don't believe this is true. I don't think Conduit is an effect on the target model, I think it's an effect on the Voodoo Doll.

[AdrianMills]

I don't believe this is true. I don't think Conduit is an effect on the target model, I think it's an effect on the Voodoo Doll.

Yes it's an effect on the voodoo doll

[Fetid Strumpet]

Ahh my mistake.

[rancor709]

What part of the twins did you find the lack of fun in? Or was it strictly the puppet shenagians combines with obey and poison? I think we've all had an npe at somepoint either in malifaux or another game system. Personally I love playing against zorida because its not chompy or pandora. Its rare to not see stitched and at least 1 set of the twins in all neverborn lists. If your going after the twins Lelu is the one to kill. He's easier to get through than whippy and as has been stated lelu is the focus till he's dead. Also austringer is the way to go

[fishtank]

The lack of fun came from a feeling of complete futility at not being able to do a damn thing with my models, primarily the Executioner.

(Bring him forward to try and get to melee range. Then see him hexed and obeyed into range of a Stitched that Gambled him to death.)

It was a combination of that and feeling like I had no way of getting any sort of solid damage in, as the terrain was in my way despite all the hunter and scout, while it was of no import at all to my opponent.

Next time I will go after Lelu first.

[Math Mathonwy]

Executioner isn't a very good model, really. He isn't completely useless, but you need to luck out on opposing models and have a strategy which forces your opponent to close in on you, preferably into terrain.

Also, the twins and Stitcheds are at the top of the power chain in this game, basically. So when you take less than stellar models and your opponent takes the cream of the crop, it's going to be a serious uphill battle.

[Ozz]

issue i see here, is the executioner is an amazing target for obey to be cast on, hits easily and very hard. Personally what i think is a decent combo is a ranged (i know you said you didn't have Ortega's, i just forgot the name of the one you have) like Nino next to a cheap model usually granny. And maybe team him up with something cheap and low dmg, cant think of examples here sorry, then he can only bash something of yours as you can make disengaging strikes after obey so hard to shoot with him for your opponent.

The other comment i had was to kill lelu in one go rather than lilitu due to she does not regen 2 each turn after taking her 3 Dmg in the end phase.

Hope it helps, but i do think vs that crew the ortegas would help you a lot, or Hans to ignore the fog off the stitched.

[Huang Da Wei]

I have only played 2 games of malifaux so I cant comment on the crews but what I can say is dont give up.

look on each battle as a learning curve, play to the end, learn as you go and try next time to beatyour opponent using differnt tactics or models.

just giving up because things arent going your way is not good, maybe your opponent did well, maybe he got lucky, maybe you were unlucky. but just remember its a game, 2 or more people just playing a game.

take some advise from the guys on here, adjust your crew, ask for a rematch and play it through. good luck

[Therapist]

Any of the family except papa are going to give you an edge with their 8 wp on defense and their ability to strike as one. Papa is a liability against zoraida.

I used sonnia against zoraida once (along with collodi) and brought the executioner. i didnt know i was facing Z, just neverborn. with obey the executioner killed a guardian, sonnia, and a guild guard and iirc a witchling as well. more than the rest of his army put together. It was very ugly.

He tabled me by turn 4 and I made him play it out until turn 6. I hadnt seen collodi in action and i wanted to see his movement shanigans. he took reclaim malifaux and by the end of turn 4 he had one section claimed. by 6 he had 8 out of 9.

the moral of the story is this: even if youre getting destroyed you should play it out just to experience what a player (especially if hes a good one and not just lucky) can do to you. next time you face those models youll know what youre in for and be able to more effectively deal with the problem.

[Akujie]

First, why I agree with all the above posters that there are a myriad of rewards for completing a game even an uphill battle as the one you were in, gotta put out that sometimes its better to walk away from a frustrating table. Its a game, and espesially if your playing a buddy or opponent in a "less" competitve sense, the number one objective is to have fun. If your frustrated your probably not paying to much attention to the ways they are beating you (more just looking for something broken to justify the sound whooping one just recieved).

I play 90% of my games against NB, and I find I win more then I lose. Your list is not bad. Twins and stiched sounds like a pretty competitive NB list though, so maybe run your nasty peices as well. I understand the frustration with guild vs NB. citing Magik...sigh...NB play like a "blue deck" while us guildies are the almighty "red deck." NB will control you (and in Zs case literally). Paralyse, move you around, have you attack yourself/allys, deny you targets, hell they even die on their own terms (looking at you stitched o.O). And we, well we do obscene amounts of damage. You activate before that stiched and you can very realistly gun him down in a single activation. We also have masters that can clear 2-3 minions in a turn easily (meaning if your master is alive and they press in on you they don't expect the carnage you can release). I have turned around several awful starts where Im down to 2-3 models with a Sonnia ordanance or lady J riposte blender. Remeber their paralyze lasts one activation, your bullet to their brain is forever! I also notice in Guild vs NB matches it is very easy to get wrapped up in the killing (both sides). Try positioning to make "threat zones" (strategy dependent of course) NB range is weaker then yours. Threat zone is basically positioning so that if he wants to move up on an area he well have to weather attacks from you, and since your the guild that usually means he has to fear that 4 pt minion of yours with the 4 dmg weak flips and 7 dmg severes . Use models to block LOS on your beat sticks (have Sonnia and Guardian stand side by side with exec behind them and advance).

I disagree with the above poster about Exec being a bad model, there are "better" (so maybe semantics) more adaptable models, but exec is a sustainable beat stick, throw him in the mix of some killable (not stiched) minions and it takes quite a bit to take him down. Getting him there you need to plan for. Walking his slow butt across the board won't work in the majority of games he needs LOS protection, movement tricks (lucious/SoC/LJ*) or defence tricks (guardian, lawyer). That all said, I don't run him very often because I hate the model (proxy him when I do with a wicked Anima model). Also not a big fan of Sam, Half the ortegas are better ranged to take and will save you a SS. Santiago with Sonnia is stupid awesome and nino is a great range (specially if your playing on a map with too little terrain) that NB love to charge up on (meaning sonnia can counter nuke/or exec can counter charge).

Keep up the faith! I always expect to get murdered the first time I play against a new model/crew. But the next time you know their tricks and better how to avoid it!

[poulpox]

I agree with Ortegas being a pain vs Zoraida: when I play her I struggle against those Ortegan high Wp resistance (except Papa, the sweetness for conduit!)

Models immune to influence are another option too, but I think using Witchlings and Ortegas should be enough (that's what my mate uses, with a Peacekeeper as a beat stick, and it makes my witch's life hell to pull out Wp shenanigans)

[sharpobjects]

I have played Sonia Crid 25 or so times and have done well with her against most factions/masters in the last dozen or so games by taking low cost high count crews.

My 35 stone list for crid;

4 witchlings 4 death marshals and Crid having 7 stones.

Sometimes I may add or subtract a witch/marshal; 5 witches and 3 marshals or 5 marshals and 3 witches.

With this crew my opponent has a hard time trying to figure out what model to go after. I have 4 models with range weak damage of 3 and 4 melee models with weak damage of 3. Critical strike built in on the marshal’s gun and critical strike built into the witch’s sword.

You push up the witches and use Crid to target them blast through them. You burn a stone if you need to in order to get the trigger off so you can place blast markers 2 inches away from the witch. You can hit your witch with severe on the first strike and the witch only takes 3 damage because it magic resist 2.

The witch is 10 inches away from Crid, the trigger places the blast markers 2 inches away from the witch and 3 blast markers are approx 9 inches in a straight line. With the 30m base of the witch as one inch you can touch a model with the last blast marker approx 22 inches away from Sonia Crid. This also guarantees the hit because you are targeting your own model and you can cheat down to get yourself in normal or positive twist on damage.

If you place your 4 witches correctly, you will blast the $$$$$$$$ out of the stitches before they get into the 8 inch range to use their Wp/Wp duels against you.

If your opponent sends some of his other models up to engage with witches, you target the group and blast it. It doesn’t matter when you flip to see who the target is, yours or his, the blast is going off and as I said before, the witches are magic resist 2 so they mitigate some of crids initial blast damage.

As the game progresses and you have several severely wounded witches on the board, you have crid turn them into brand new witches with violation of magic. You can also use the witches dispel magic on each other to remove poison counters the nasty voodoo doll hands out every round.

The marshals are there to protect Crid, Fire at range and grab objectives while all the blasting is going on all over the place.

If he sends in the Mature on Crid, no worries. That’s why you have 7 stones. Keep him in a negative twist and allow him to damage you if you don’t want to burn too many stones cheating out. Save the stones for when Crid strikes the Mature back. She heals wounds with her absorb magic trigger and draws a card. The defender discards a card.

I normally use 4 stones for my blasting; you sometimes have to burn a stone for confiscated lore. I then use the remaining 3 for defensive flips and or melee strikes with whatever came up to attack me.

I could go on and on but I won’t bore you guys. I have run this 4 stone minion list a ton of times and have won more often than not.

I do agree, it gets boring after a while. I like Sam and the executioner and other big stone models, but they are usually a liability when they are taken out before you had a chance to do anything with them.

With my crew, I tell my opponent go ahead, pick a 4 stone any 4 stone and have at it