Changes for Alyce and Ashes and Dust

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

5 hours ago, Zebo said:

It's still a summoned model, so still can't do this the same turn it appears. 

Removing the Summon Token would allow it to interact as normal on the turn it appears, GG Summon rules use Summon Upgrades (which includes Summon Tokens) for all summon-related restrictions:

Quote

In addition to being ignored for friendly Schemes and Strategies and not taking the Interact Action on the Turn they enter play, models with a Summon Upgrade cannot take the Interact Action to affect Strategy Markers in any way.

 

 

[Zebo]

1 hour ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Removing the Summon Token would allow it to interact as normal on the turn it appears, GG Summon rules use Summon Upgrades (which includes Summon Tokens) for all summon-related restrictions:

 

 

No, it wouldn't

 

 

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

4 hours ago, Zebo said:

No, it wouldn't

Maybe not for all formats, but for Gaining Grounds it would (GG Summon Rules are more specific than the Core rules).

Personally, I think having Demise (Desolate Core) replace A&D with both Ashen Core and Dust Storm is better. Storm could then get an ability like “If this model would be placed by Demise (Desolate Core), instead place it in b2b with a table edge”. Fixes Summon issue without treading into grey waters and keeps the text light-ish on both cards.

[Azahul]

I quite like the suggestion that the Ashen Core replace but not the Dust Storm. I.e. have Initiate Reformation read "During the end phase, if this model is base to base with the target, this model is killed and the target is replaced with Ashes and Dust".

Does mean Ashes would have lower hit points, though the Dust Storm dying can have some funny ancillary effects (such as giving Leve2 a Fate token) so it probably is fine.

[Maniacal_cackle]

56 minutes ago, Azahul said:

I quite like the suggestion that the Ashen Core replace but not the Dust Storm. I.e. have Initiate Reformation read "During the end phase, if this model is base to base with the target, this model is killed and the target is replaced with Ashes and Dust".

Does mean Ashes would have lower hit points, though the Dust Storm dying can have some funny ancillary effects (such as giving Leve2 a Fate token) so it probably is fine.

You can add in a heal for the Dust Storm's current health if you want, or more likely a generic heal of 2.

It does also come with the unfortunate consequence that you then don't get to continue the activation... BUT you get a full ashes and dust activation instead even if you go walk, walk, replace. Which seems like a good deal to me.

Also has the upside that you only need to errata one card xD

[Azahul]

5 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

You can add in a heal for the Dust Storm's current health if you want, or more likely a generic heal of 2.

It does also come with the unfortunate consequence that you then don't get to continue the activation... BUT you get a full ashes and dust activation instead even if you go walk, walk, replace. Which seems like a good deal to me.

Also has the upside that you only need to errata one card xD

Initiate Reformation is an End Phase effect so you've never been able to continue the activation But yeah, it seemed the neatest fix in terms of changes to me.

[Adran]

6 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Maybe not for all formats, but for Gaining Grounds it would (GG Summon Rules are more specific than the Core rules).

Not that it really matters ( this is all discussion about a theoretical change), but I don't think that works. The Gg rules add an additional restriction of never interacting with strategy markers, they don't change the core rules ( you could certainly argue if a model got a summon upgrade without being summoned the wording would mean that it also suffered all those restrictions, but I don't see anything that says a summoned model can ignore the core rules for summons if it loses its upgrade/token). 

[Da Git]

What about giving Dust Storm a rule saying that it can never gain a summon token, then give it (& the Ashen Core) Insignificant.

This would make them completely useless scheme and strat wise until they reform, but then are perfectly happy again.

[Zebo]

I thought the point was to allow A&D to use its demise to scheme

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

41 minutes ago, Zebo said:

I thought the point was to allow A&D to use its demise to scheme

I think the original point was to allow A&D to scheme fully only once reformed (which is perfectly reasonable and what the Summon Token on Dust Storm currently breaks).

[Maniacal_cackle]

5 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

I think the original point was to allow A&D to scheme fully only once reformed (which is perfectly reasonable and what the Summon Token on Dust Storm currently breaks).

Yeah I think that is a reasonable goal.

But there is no good reason a dust storm should be able to do the strategy when a summoned shikome or rat catcher can't.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yeah I think that is a reasonable goal.

But there is no good reason a dust storm should be able to do the strategy when a summoned shikome or rat catcher can't.

That depends on how you view  what it actually is.  It feels perfectly fine to hire a duet and split it and have both parts do the strategy. So if its the storm from the original model it might make sense, but if its a generic animated dust storm that just happened to be about, then maybe not. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

17 minutes ago, Adran said:

That depends on how you view  what it actually is.  It feels perfectly fine to hire a duet and split it and have both parts do the strategy. So if its the storm from the original model it might make sense, but if its a generic animated dust storm that just happened to be about, then maybe not. 

Currently as far as I know, there is no model that creates another model 30+ inches away without the summon restrictions.

So I don't think Duet is a good comparison (due to lack of teleport) or soulstone miner (due to lack of creating an extra model).

I'd compare it more to gokudo - replaces one model and summons another across the board.

[Adran]

12 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Currently as far as I know, there is no model that creates another model 30+ inches away without the summon restrictions.

So I don't think Duet is a good comparison (due to lack of teleport) or soulstone miner (due to lack of creating an extra model).

I'd compare it more to gokudo - replaces one model and summons another across the board.

No, but you have said in another thread that you find it easy to pick a model 30" from you and decide to kill it.

 

( and activate a fast duet and it can be over 20" away from its starting point that a corephyee is added to the table ).

There aren't many models that can summon a significant model 30" from themselves either.

Saying that somethibg shouldn't happen just because it doesn't happen with another model doesn't seem a good argument, because currently as far as I can remember there is only one model that both replaces and summons as part of the same ability. ( gokudo don't count, the replacement is from1 action and the summon from a separate ability). 

No other model can be reduced to 0 wounds and removed from the table and yet still able to come back and still be the model picked by a scheme. 

The only reason the dust storm can't be teleported 30" and do a strategy marker at the moment is because the current GG doesn't let it, not because the rules don't let it. 

Prior to the summon token errata, was the dust storm being used to scheme run by teleporting it 30" across the board? I'm not sure that that was a common tactic, but it was a valid one ( although it couldn't interact the turn it was summoned), so if people are talking about buffing then never summoning is stronger than summoning but not transferring the summon token, but I don't think it's as huge a leap as you're worried about. 

Edit - thinking about it, a double replace is actually a lot weaker than the replace/ summon, especially if the reform doesn't keep the summon token, because a double replace doesn't guarantee the storm getting an activation that turn unless you held off the ashes and dust activation. 

[Zebo]

11 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

But there is no good reason a dust storm should be able to do the strategy when a summoned shikome or rat catcher can't.

Well, you don't pay for a summoned Shikome doesn't you lose any model to summon it. Also its 2ss cheaper than A&D and still comparable at beating things (if not plain better). 

And also isn't really a lot squishier than A&D for its 2ss discount. 

 

Still not sure why you mention Shikome and Rat Catcher specifically in this case. There's no other model designed to die and split like A&D, it's not like you summon a Dust Storm 30" Away. You pay 9ss for an 8wd no defensive tech scheme runner with underwhelming mobility (just two actions of mv 7 and a useless bonus unless you face a crew that drops scrap markers) 

What are you paying 9ss for? 

[KID55]

On 7/12/2022 at 10:00 AM, Adran said:

Prior to the summon token errata, was the dust storm being used to scheme run by teleporting it 30" across the board? I'm not sure that that was a common tactic, but it was a valid one

I did it usually when I played him. Yep, you can not interact, there is not intect-based schemes. And that is more important, you can stop opponent's schemer on a flank.

[TeddyBear]

I really hope that both Alyce and A&D will be improved a bit, with the next errata.  Other than not giving a summoning token to A&D when played with Amalgam; but Alyce makes no sense that she only has a walk of 4" (never understand why...) I would like (but it would be really an extra) she was able to drop her marker or move it with a trigger.

[Azahul]

The only problem with Alyce in my book is that her Keyword can't capitalise on her Pit Trap markers well. I find her a compelling choice with Masters like Hamelin2 and Zipp1 who can easily force enemy models into the Pit Traps, and she used to be excellent with Von Schill1 but the Yannic+Engineers module rather displaced her there.

[KID55]

10 hours ago, Azahul said:

The only problem with Alyce in my book is that her Keyword can't capitalise on her Pit Trap markers well. I find her a compelling choice with Masters like Hamelin2 and Zipp1 who can easily force enemy models into the Pit Traps, and she used to be excellent with Von Schill1 but the Yannic+Engineers module rather displaced her there.

Or with Parker2 when he can move it to give Injuried +2 and 1 dmg.

[Thatguy]

15 hours ago, TeddyBear said:

Alyce makes no sense that she only has a walk of 4" (never understand why...)

It's because with MV 6 she was impossible to lock in melee. If you tried to stop her shooting she simply disengaged, and unless you manage to hit her for severe, she just stepped away and rapid fired. A lot of crews don't have concealment bubbles so locking her in melee was the only solution to avoid getting shot to death. 

 

I wouldn't give her Mv6. I would give her nimble or some other movement shenanigan first, if I thought she needed movement help. 

[KID55]

Why then Samael has mv6? He has rapid fire, 2(3-4) min damage and burning +1 on each hit.

[Thatguy]

 

33 minutes ago, KID55 said:

Why then Samael has mv6? He has rapid fire, 2(3-4) min damage and burning +1 on each hit.

3/4/5 ignoring Hard to Wound is better than 2/3/4 +1 Burning. 

Rusty is also more durable unless Hopkins brought his lead-lined coat. 

If you replaced Arcane Shield with Armor 1 and replaced Collier Revolver with Clockwork Seeker you'd probably have people complaining about Hopkins too.

[TeddyBear]

I was reading just now that maybe the errata have already been made; the updated cards have also come out, at least for the models of the penultimate book. I really hope they updated the first wave models as well. There are so many that deserve a boost!

I can't wait to find out more!🤩

[KID55]

But he more dangerous in melee. 6 stat and easy +flip for damage. Plus you don't mention crit on both attacks. And he punishes for using triggers. In my opinion they are not exactly the same, but very similar.

[Plaag]

52 minutes ago, KID55 said:

Why then Samael has mv6? He has rapid fire, 2(3-4) min damage and burning +1 on each hit.

because samael is a bad model

and rusty is not bad shooter

but u know that u will always hire dog

and its not good because dog must to be nerfed