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Changes for Alyce and Ashes and Dust


KID55

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This two models now very rare on a table. Ashes is good for carrying lodestone, but doesn't fit in any other cases. Alyce have a good shooting option, but nothing else. Moreover now with mv 4 she even can not effectevely position herself.

Ashes has interaction with scrap, but no one in keyword drop it. Alyce has pit traps, but it usefull not very often. Ashes also very fragile. If he got splitted on to two parts - 95% he don't assemble again. Because he needs both parts alive and in btb. And there is A LOT of options how to move models. I think he should receive build in crow back OR make ressurection easier. And with new summon token machanism Dust Storm can not score on turn when he was summoned.

In my opinion both this models should be buffed. Or even reworked a bit. What I suggest:

For Alyce:

mv 5, give her action for placing scrap in some range (6" or 8"). And something for her shooting. Maybe ingnore friendly fire/consealment/cover because she a top shooter by lore. Or ruthless/reckless because she is crazy.

For Ashes and Dust:

give him back built in crow on attack, increase cost to 10. Or rework Dust Storm bonus action to something like this: Target a friendly Ascen core. Target gains Shielded +2. During the End Phase, if the target still in game, replace target with Ashes and Dust, then Ashes and Dust heal 2. And also increase cost to 10. It makes him more durable.

 

This changes will add synergy between this two models and I think they will see table more often.

 

Thoughts?

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Is Alyce considered bad? I bring her OOK a bit in crews that can move friendlies and enemies around (Hamelin2, Zipp) because her Pit Traps are usually very dangerous in that sort of crew and giving her a Fly With Me or Toss in the Mud is usually enough to set her up in position to do work.

 

Ashes I think would be fine if they just let him get rid of the summon token. You have near as much control over whether or not his reform gets disrupted as your opponent, just try and make sure you activate last that turn. If you're playing Leveticus that just means killing something before it activates, which, come on, it's Leveticus. It's your default game plan :D

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Without side help, yes, she is not good now. You need scavenger-babysitter almost every time. But even this doesn't help that much, because sometimes you just don't have mask on a discard, top deck and in a hand. And yes pit trap can be dangerous, I used her with Jack Daw, but in keyword you don't have good options to move opponent's models, so they bring much less profit

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7 hours ago, Azahul said:

You have near as much control over whether or not his reform gets disrupted as your opponent, just try and make sure you activate last that turn.

Yes, but. Core has df 1 (and MV 0) and even with hard to wound there's easy to make a straight damage flip. So, he needs his Shield as soon as possible.

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Hi. Alice is always a favorite character, but on the field she is inferior to some. She really lacks +1" to move. Always 1 scavenger runs next to her and pushes. I completely agree that Pit Traps is good in itself, but only for defensive purposes (we build a wall so that the enemy is afraid to approach). Ideally, she should be given the opportunity to throw a choice, his or scrap (or at the end of the turn from the marker to throw a 6" scrap).
I often play AaD, but if it is not ignored, then it is dead. And getting together is also a problem, only if we don't run straight along the edge to tie them up again. Again, as they said, scrap is very necessary, I'm already tired of asking the enemy, "Do you have this?" And then, often they choose which marker to throw and the Aud remains without its action. It would be nice if he at least threw a marker at the end (or beginning of his turn) so that he could fly, fight, complete the scheme and return.
If I wrote something wrong, I'm sorry)

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For fun play I take Alyce too. But on tournament I prefer Mad Dog over her. He can easy have a fast. He can ignore cover. He can ignore armour. He has blasts. He even can receive + on duel on low health. He cost more, but totally worth it. His range shorter but still enough.

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5 hours ago, KID55 said:

Without side help, yes, she is not good now. You need scavenger-babysitter almost every time. But even this doesn't help that much, because sometimes you just don't have mask on a discard, top deck and in a hand. And yes pit trap can be dangerous, I used her with Jack Daw, but in keyword you don't have good options to move opponent's models, so they bring much less profit

I would actually recommend the Catalan Brawler over a Scavenger. Doesn't need a Mask to get Alyce out of combat, can throw models into Pit Traps from quite a long way away, can generate free attacks for her, and can get her into position a lot faster. Those two models were made for one another.

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7 hours ago, KID55 said:

For fun play I take Alyce too. But on tournament I prefer Mad Dog over her. He can easy have a fast. He can ignore cover. He can ignore armour. He has blasts. He even can receive + on duel on low health. He cost more, but totally worth it. His range shorter but still enough.

I think it's a matter of Mad Dog being too good and not Alyce being bad 😜

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10 hours ago, trikk said:

I find that Alyce plays in almost 100% Levi games and I think the only reason Ashes doesn't is that OC have great versatiles and Amalgam has very good minions.

Nah, A&D is bad for its cost. I think in out of 20 games with Leve, I played Rusty 3-4 since she got Mv4. An immobile turret that doesn't ignore FF, Concealment or Cover? No thanks.

A&D doesn't have a quick action in 95% of the games, and when it does, it requires a 7? What a joke. Now with Summoning tokens and some limitations to replaces, A&D is just really bad.

I would rather see the Desolation Engines buffed. Right now they're really bad for 10ss. I think I'm the only Leveticus player that brings one, mainly because I have it beautifully painted and (don't ask me why) I like the miniature a lot.

Also, Necropunks need to lose 1 wound (2 wounds if they get back the mask in the leap).

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Besides, Alyce is cheaper, more durable, requires less support (discarding a card for her third AP makes her much more independent than requiring another model to give up an AP), and the Pit Trap gives her actual synergies with the handful of Outcast Masters who are actually inclined to run models OOK.

 

I actually think I hire Alyce considerably more frequently than Mad Dog OOK now that I think about it...

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8 minutes ago, Azahul said:

Besides, Alyce is cheaper, more durable, requires less support (discarding a card for her third AP makes her much more independent than requiring another model to give up an AP), and the Pit Trap gives her actual synergies with the handful of Outcast Masters who are actually inclined to run models OOK.

 

I actually think I hire Alyce considerably more frequently than Mad Dog OOK now that I think about it...

That's because most of the time you're playing Parker (where Mad Dog is in keyword) or Hamelin (who has combos with pit traps) :P

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2 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

That's because most of the time you're playing Parker (where Mad Dog is in keyword) or Hamelin (who has combos with pit traps) :P

Yeah, but Hamelin (the Piper anyway) is one of the only Outcast Masters who doesn't want to run predominantly Keyword in the first place. Most Outcasts have strong Keywords with good internal synergies that makes it hard to rationalise expensive shooting Henchmen with clear vulnerabilities.

 

The handful that don't, interestingly enough, all have a heavy emphasis on moving models and suddenly Rusty Alyce becomes quite attractive indeed. 

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True, though the Brawler is a great pick for Leveticus as a Master and also synergises really well with Alyce, so it's not like you're bereft of ways to make her shine in Keyword. And buffs like making Alyce faster or making her gun better don't fix the issue.

 

Taking away her Pit Trap for Scrap Marker generation would make her worse OOK though I guess, if you want to go that route.

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I'll try her with Brawler, maybe it's really good. I didn't use him before because I don't have one. But I still think that increase mobility to 5 and give her some ignores (friendly fire or consealment/cover) would fix her. Leveticus tend to be in close combat, so ignoring FF can make a combo.

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But I'm very sceptic to this option. Take 8SS model to make 9SS Henchman normal to play. Sound like meh. And his push work only in 2". So it means Alyce in close combat, that not very good or Brawler babysitting her and do nothing else, that also not good. But I'll try. Maybe I'm wrong.

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4 minutes ago, KID55 said:

But I'm very sceptic to this option. Take 8SS model to make 9SS Henchman normal to play. Sound like meh. And his push work only in 2". So it means Alyce in close combat, that not very good or Brawler babysitting her and do nothing else, that also not good. But I'll try. Maybe I'm wrong.

And yet you keep talking about comparisons to Mad Dog, a 10 point model who needs some support to be anything but lacklustre. And the support most commonly taken for him? A 10 stone Emissary.

 

Personally I like Alyce playing up close. It means her Entropy aura is doing work, her durability is generating value, her Pit Traps are posing a problem for the opponent, and that Cover and Concealment aren't going to be an issue because there's no room for opponents to hide. And it's going to happen anyway, people want to get to and shut down Alyce. Might as well build your strategy around assuming at least the former will happen.

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4 minutes ago, Azahul said:

And yet you keep talking about comparisons to Mad Dog

I didn't said a single word about Dog now)

 

4 minutes ago, Azahul said:

A 10 stone Emissary.

He is not personal support for Dog. He is universal support for everyone. And Dog can play without him. Only Support that Dog really needed - 1 scheme Marker. Anyone in crew can place it. Or even with Parker Drawn their attention ability Dog can place it himself without spending actions. In a middle of the game there is a lot marker on table, thanks Drop it.

7 minutes ago, Azahul said:

and that Cover and Concealment aren't going to be an issue because there's no room for opponents to hide

Only if you play on empty table I suppose. Tables that I usually play always have cover and very often have consealmant and severe terrain, near deployment.

 

Some tzpical tables that I play. A lot of place to hide from shooting attacks. Moreover, strategy markers also can be cover and consealment.3bnJGA5IYA4BajdTF8A74FK3H6xfcYKboRUG-nIulTF1sVgthikldEwvlO1HrsTDrmYJ7Xrr9KiFjlRvQWa3EIjr.jpg?size=1600x1200&quality=95&type=album

8FBRRJj5yvg1Gu0zFoOz32yMx7bkd2tXT8alp-0fZlPJyV4OxMlOutJscqUw-GIP6LpOAfCwhgJJvoSvAnGcZjsI.jpg?size=1600x901&quality=95&type=album

q7cxcS799wsmtBDkD8cagFZmEHNs1Ps1WVWk7lDuTtDsGOUxDd3SucIzHWXC0MCeluSgQ6AGPT2VsYJsFwTlN6C4.jpg?size=1600x901&quality=95&type=album

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On 6/9/2022 at 4:59 PM, KID55 said:

For fun play I take Alyce too. But on tournament I prefer Mad Dog over her. He can easy have a fast. He can ignore cover. He can ignore armour. He has blasts. He even can receive + on duel on low health. He cost more, but totally worth it. His range shorter but still enough.

 

24 minutes ago, KID55 said:

I didn't said a single word about Dog now)

 

Direct comparisons to Mad Dog have been made.

 

25 minutes ago, KID55 said:

He is not personal support for Dog. He is universal support for everyone. And Dog can play without him. Only Support that Dog really needed - 1 scheme Marker. Anyone in crew can place it. Or even with Parker Drawn their attention ability Dog can place it himself without spending actions. In a middle of the game there is a lot marker on table, thanks Drop it.

 

And the Brawler isn't personal support for Alyce. He's a reasonably tanky brawler who can generate Irreducible damage attacks from Leveticus as easily as he can Min 3 shots from Alyce. He brings condition removal which post-nerf Leveticus really does want. He gets you extra mobility on whichever model you have that needs it, and is a source of Stunned for the crew.

 

And Mad Dog absolutely needs another model to babysit him, otherwise he gets engaged rapidly begins to lose effectiveness.

28 minutes ago, KID55 said:

Only if you play on empty table I suppose. Tables that I usually play always have cover and very often have consealmant and severe terrain, near deployment.

 

Sure. I do too. What I was saying was that a benefit to Alyce fighting at close range is that Cover and Concealment become much easier to mitigate. If your opponent is in the teeth of your crew and you pull Alyce out of melee with a Brawler or a Scavenger and she activates and starts shooting at a model within 3" of her, odds are you've been able to arrange a totally clear line of sight.

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