Errata 2022 - Outcast

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, Azahul said:

First of all, I a) don't disagree with you that the balancing point is hard to hit, and b) don't even think we should be trying to push all Minions to the point where you want to field the maximum allowance any time we can. I would be very happy if there was a case to be made to be a single Bandido or Desperate Mercenary into a crew if the pool or opponent suited them.

 

But I don't agree so much that the core rulebook is shutting them down conceptually so much. I look at the likes of Daydreams with Dreamer, or Colette and Ophelia bringing three totems, or just the existence of summoners as a force to be reckoned with more generally (even after the hits they've taken in this Gaining Grounds), and I just don't see Pass Tokens being this insurmountable block to competitive performance that you find it to be. People don't normally cite the fact that Lord Cooper crews nearly invariably hit double digit models as a reason why he doesn't perform competitively. It's not an irrelevant concern, and if balancing models at a low price point were easy we wouldn't be having this discussion, but I think you may be over emphasising it just a tad.

While I agree there's exceptions, and pass tokens aren't the only issue (the inefficiency of the walk action is another one for example), there's structural issues that mean on average most crews don't want to play lots of minions.

2 minutes ago, Azahul said:

People don't normally cite the fact that Lord Cooper crews nearly invariably hit double digit models as a reason why he doesn't perform competitively.

Actually I've heard this exact point several times xD Some people even try not hiring the runaways, and sometimes it is worth considering skipping hiring totems to avoid activation control vulnerabilities.

But yes, by all means these models should be buffed! I was just addressing the wider issue that getting a model fixed doesn't mean that it is hugely playable. It just means it sees play sometimes.

[Azahul]

2 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Actually I've heard this exact point several times xD Some people even try not hiring the runaways, and sometimes it is worth considering skipping hiring totems to avoid activation control vulnerabilities.

Haha, first I'm hearing of it, though it doesn't seem to be an argument levied equally to all the Masters with triple Minion totems. 

 

But yes, I am very much in agreement that "worth playing sometimes" is the ballpark we should be aiming for. And that on its own very nearly precludes making a model spammable, because if something is a niche choice worth bringing from time to time how often will you want to double (or triple) down on that choice anyway?

[Zebo]

[RisingPhoenix]

15 hours ago, Rufess said:

It's very true that killing a master with equal ss of minions is highly impossible. But even a master can hardly kill another master within an activation, isn't it?

Assuming Von Schill is attacking another Von Schill. The accuracy is about 53.85% with stat 6 vs Df 6. Von Schill is doing 2.33 on his melee with Critical Strike, and 2.46 with his rifle per hit. So he is about doing 3.76 ~ 3.97 damage on the target Von Schill in an activation. Comparing to you math, I think the minions are doing a relative good job, and can be even better when they are against a lower Df and non-armored target.

Then the minions need more durability.  Because I can assure you, Von Schill will be killing a Bandido in his activation (especially power armor Von Schill).  So if it were Von Schill vs. 3 Bandidos, even if the Bandidos go first every time, they'll do maybe 6-7 damage to Von Schill over the course of him beating them all to death.  While you chuck Von Schill at someone like Archie (who is 9 stones, and therefore should be crappier than 15 stones of Bandidos) and Archie will probably hold up as long and end up doing more damage back to VS.   The reality is Bandidos are worth maybe 3.5 stones, not 5. 

Which comes back to the core problem with cheap minions - they have too little damage and too little survivability.  They need buffs in both categories.  It's like wyrd made them less defensive, less durable, hit less hard, have lower attack numbers, and weaker triggers, without understanding these all have multiplicative effects. 

Cheap minions are shit.  Cheap enforcers/henchmen are rare and usually get something to make up for their cheapness (some trait you can point to and say 'well even though the model is crap you might bring it because of X' like Student of Conflict) but cheap minions are just garbage.  And it doesn't have to be that way, it was a choice by Wyrd.  A bad one. 

 

P.S.  "These models are bad in large numbers but maybe they become good if we take less" is silly.  Yeah, they're bad in large numbers, they're less bad in small numbers.  The correct amount of bad you want in your list is zero, so don't bring any.

[Azahul]

44 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

P.S.  "These models are bad in large numbers but maybe they become good if we take less" is silly.  Yeah, they're bad in large numbers, they're less bad in small numbers.  The correct amount of bad you want in your list is zero, so don't bring any.

It really isn't silly. Necropunks were busted good before the nerf. How often did you see anyone bring three? Even two wasn't super common. A single Silent One shows up in a lot of Arcanist lists, but two is a lot rarer. When Freikorpsmann get hired it is generally without being spammed because you won't be able to fuel more than one instance of Consult the Field Manual. Malifaux is filled with examples of Minions who bring a great piece of specific tech into a list for cheap but don't get spammed because it would be redundant/represent diminishing returns/becomes impossible to give them the resources they need.

 

That aside you're not wrong that cheaper models do suffer from getting hit on every front by being cheaper. Cost 4 models not only have half the health of Cost 8 models but usually have fewer defensive rules and often have lower defensive stats, and their attacks are both lower stat and lower damage. That can lead to them feeling like a quarter of a Cost 8 model, not half. It's not surprising that cheap schemer is one of the more functional roles for low cost models (at least for the ones with a mobility rule or two), since at least an Interact is always as powerful regardless of who is doing it.

[SEV]

3 minions = 6 actions (often + 3 bonus)

Master = 3 actions + a bonus.

The minions are winning the action economy by far so it's normal that the power of the action they can take is lower.

Wyrd might have gone overboard with this on a lot of cheap minions though. Especially since action economy is somewhat counterbalance by the pass token system. It's usually better to takes more powerful action than to spam less powerful action and give a bunch of pass token and easy activation control to your oponent.

The new minions design by wyrd seems to acknowledge that. 

As I said, I think cheap minion should generate value no matter what they do (demise is great for that) but giving them action/stats that are seen on more powerful models is a good way to start the power creep spiral (that doesn't mean that garbage models shouldn't be errata... Winged plage should have their moment in the sun).

[Azahul]

52 minutes ago, SEV said:

3 minions = 6 actions (often + 3 bonus)

Master = 3 actions + a bonus.

The minions are winning the action economy by far so it's normal that the power of the action they can take is lower.

Wyrd might have gone overboard with this on a lot of cheap minions though. Especially since action economy is somewhat counterbalance by the pass token system. It's usually better to takes more powerful action than to spam less powerful action and give a bunch of pass token and easy activation control to your oponent.

The new minions design by wyrd seems to acknowledge that. 

As I said, I think cheap minion should generate value no matter what they do (demise is great for that) but giving them action/stats that are seen on more powerful models is a good way to start the power creep spiral (that doesn't mean that garbage models shouldn't be errata... Winged plage should have their moment in the sun).

I tend to think the issue is on the defensive side moreso than the offensive side. A Bandido is half the price of Mad Dog with half the hit points but is also one less Defence, lacks Hard to Kill, and can't use Soulstones. Both are on the squishy side in their respective point brackets but the kind of attack that one-shots a Bandido does not two-shot Mad Dog. This is presumably why Hard to Wound and Hard to Kill come up so often in these conversations, people are trying to level out this disparity and those two rules solve the simplest issue with focused attacks.

 

Action economy is definitely on the side of the cheap models but resource management (i.e. cards, and stones where applicable) is on the side of expensive models with better actions, so it's mainly felt in scheming. Though I've certainly forced enough buries or Stutter Times through with Void Wretches in my time to know the value of spamming attacks you aren't prepared to cheat.

[Math Mathonwy]

This observation was made by@SEVover in the Bayou errata thread but it is quite strangely often the most iconic Minions that are the most in need of a buff. And that's probably because the most iconic Minions are usually the combat oriented ones. Lightning Bugs, Moon Shinobi, Bandidos, Witchling Stalkers, Oxfordian Mages, etc etc.

This also ties into what@Azahulwas saying above: the schemer and support Minions that are viable still don't see multiple copies taken because of their roles but a Parker list with three Bandidos could be a fair goal to strive for. Naturally not as an autotake but as a consideration. Contrasting to, e.g., Winged Plagues which shouldn't necessarily aim for viability of taking three.

I do kinda wish that this conversation would be in its own thread (as@Maniacal_cacklenoted) since this might get a bit buried here in the Outcast section. Is a thread surgery possible, @Adranor would it be too messy?

[RisingPhoenix]

Here, I'll even give you the perfect starting post:

Death Marshals are well-designed and fair 5 stone minions

Now compare them to anything else in the 4-5 stone price range.  Discuss.

[Axelst]

Death Marshal is harder to kill, but Bandido has better access to fast and can deal damage while moving thanks to run and gun.

[Da Git]

I think the problem with Banditos is thinking them as a damage-dealer taking on the big bois. They're more flankers/harrassing units, which sadly the game doesn't really need, so anything in that role isn't taken so much. I feel this would be better solved by a GG than by errata'ing the card. If I were to errata Banditos, I'd remove Life of Crime (there a higher priority models to claim the markers) and give them Disguised and/or Manipulative. Edit. Actually Stealth would probably be best.

Also all the Bandit keyword needs something to make it so that the enemy doesn't just put the scheme markers from Drop it out of LoS from the attacking model or just make Burny Parker's Perdition non-aura.

Agree with the points on the smaller beater-type models (wrastlers being a prime example) of not being that great as the game tends to reward the bigger, harder-hitting models. Giving most of them HtK would absolutely be a simple (if inelegant) fix.

Also, prior to Lady Death, Death Marshals were a rarity, so I'm not sure they help your case.

[Azahul]

Drop It already forces the enemy to place the markers in LOS of the attacking model.

 

Doesn't change the overall point that the attacking model should be the one controlling the drop though.

[Axelst]

I agree Drop It! should be changed, but it's unlikely to be since it's on so many models. At most, one of the Parkers might get an ability that allows him to place the markers made by Drop It!.

[Maniacal_cackle]

6 hours ago, Da Git said:

I think the problem with Banditos is thinking them as a damage-dealer taking on the big bois. They're more flankers/harrassing units, which sadly the game doesn't really need, so anything in that role isn't taken so much. I feel this would be better solved by a GG than by errata'ing the card. If I were to errata Banditos, I'd remove Life of Crime (there a higher priority models to claim the markers) and give them Disguised and/or Manipulative. Edit. Actually Stealth would probably be best.

Also all the Bandit keyword needs something to make it so that the enemy doesn't just put the scheme markers from Drop it out of LoS from the attacking model or just make Burny Parker's Perdition non-aura.

Agree with the points on the smaller beater-type models (wrastlers being a prime example) of not being that great as the game tends to reward the bigger, harder-hitting models. Giving most of them HtK would absolutely be a simple (if inelegant) fix.

Also, prior to Lady Death, Death Marshals were a rarity, so I'm not sure they help your case.

One interesting thing about life of crime while flanking is it let's you save an AP for next turn. Turn 1 stay super safe and walk interact, then three ap turn 2.

[RayMet]

I hope drop cost to Void Hunter from 7 to 6. They just so bad to hire.
Would like see Vannesa as hechman.
Gives range 1 attack for Bishop.
Make Aionus 8-9 cost and drop 1-2 of his health.
Nerf Tara2 trick with echo marker turn 1.
Need changes "Welcome to Malifaux for Taylor"
Desperate Mercenaries need +1 health or hard to kill
Johan need 1 more trigger for his attacks.

[Brilliance Laced Whiskey]

Comparing Bandidos to Death Marshall's is rough, to say the least.  Not that it's a fair comparison, I would be curious to know how many hundreds of Bandidos it would take on average to take down Fuhatsu (he'd probably think he died and gone to heaven).

 

Several models in the Bandit crew feel like they were added to fill out the keyword, and less so because they have great synergy with the list.  I'm not sure how well they gell with their other keywords, but suffice to say they are basically non-options for Parker as better choices exist.  If they can't revamp them without rendering them pointless in the other designated keyword, I would rather they instead just straight up remove the bandit keyword from them.  Then again, this could be because I am fairly new to the game and am lost on some of the more subtle nuances of what you can do.

What I'd do:

Bandidos:   Built in + flip with their pistol, and stealth (or stealth within X inches of a scheme marker).  Given their lack of a fast action, I dont think these sounds too unreasonable.

Convict Gunslinger: +1 wound and Rapid Fire.  

Desolation Engine:  +1 defense

 

I would also change the upgrade cards.  I would maybe make some of the scheme removal abilities to be used in conjunction with models built in abilities so they don't feel so redundant. 

 

[Morgan Vening]

6 hours ago, Brilliance Laced Whiskey said:

Bandidos:   Built in + flip with their pistol, and stealth (or stealth within X inches of a scheme marker).  Given their lack of a fast action, I dont think these sounds too unreasonable.

I think you mean Bonus Action, best not to confuse terms, especially on a model with easy access to Fast.

I do think all models should have a bonus action, even if it's relatively trivial if the model doesn't need much of a bump (not the Bandido, it needs something hefty)

So give it something like...

Fanning the Hammer : stat 5, TN 10, This model gets a positive flip to it's Collier Revolver Action.

Heck maybe add a trigger that allows the Bandit player to be the one to place the Scheme Marker on Drop It, or make the Drop It trigger "after resolving".

Parker 2 can do the latter, but would benefit from the former, so put both in as separate triggers.

I mean, it's not like there isn't surplus space on the back of the card.

Another option would be to use the Bonus Action to grant Stealth until EoT (duck for cover?) if within a distance of blocking or concealing terrain. So you can run and gun up into range, fire again, then at least force the opponent to have to move (twice if it's move 5 or less) to retaliate.

Does leave them exposed at the start of the turn, but you should be able to mitigate that by forcing bigger threats.

[Maniacal_cackle]

🤣 Azahul is abslutely smashing the Malifaux World Series using Tara. 8 diff in two rounds against two championship players xD

I think Tara needs a nerf!

[Da Git]

5 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

🤣 Azahul is abslutely smashing the Malifaux World Series using Tara. 8 diff in two rounds against two championship players xD

I think Tara needs a nerf!

OG Tara or Timeless?

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, Da Git said:

OG Tara or Timeless?

OG Tara.

[Azahul]

Honestly I don't rate Tara2 very highly. The kidnap needs a nerf, outside of the kidnap she's got some fun tricks, but she just never feels as good as Tara1 in the pools I think Obliteration is good at.

[admiralvorkraft]

7 hours ago, Azahul said:

Honestly I don't rate Tara2 very highly. The kidnap needs a nerf, outside of the kidnap she's got some fun tricks, but she just never feels as good as Tara1 in the pools I think Obliteration is good at.

She expands the range of pills Obliteration is good at to (approximately) all of them 😛

But yeah, nerf the kidnap please. The rest of her kit is super cool.

[Zebo]

But, if you take away from her the kidnapping, what else she has? 

[Morgan Vening]

1 hour ago, Zebo said:

But, if you take away from her the kidnapping, what else she has? 

She's got some tricks. The ability to futz with the opponent with Lost In The Moment, or reposition friendlies with Stuttertime/Expidite are nice bits. And Butterfly Jump and Regen +2 are pretty nice if you're playing against a melee heavy crew where Through The Hole is useless.

And there's still plenty of utility with Rewind, either offensively, utilitily or defensively. Throw the Nothing Beast or Talos into the enemy, and if it looks like there's gonna be reprisal, whoomp, back they come. Put something on an objective against lure/push crews, and after the last activation, whoomp, back they come. Or if you know your opponent is gonna try the same thing, tag them with an Echo, and it doesn't matter if they move to claim an objective, whoomp, back they go.

I haven't seen anyone suggest that Rewind be removed. Just the way in which it interacts with Thirty Three in a pretty unfun manner.

[Zebo]

Maybe. What I mean is that I don't have at all the feeling that she's specially strong... but for that trick. 

 

I'm simply trying to see what she can do if 33 is not on the table, and frankly don't see anything very special.