Urgent issues for titles.

[I'm a Teapot!]

Dual masters + titles should be a plantest on its own… so much broken stuff… especially ressers 

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

Dual masters + titles should be a plantest on its own… so much broken stuff… especially ressers 

Like I just learned about give Seamus cremation with plastic surgery, then use his bonus to ignore italics... Can remove any model from the table as long as he can target them from their table half.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Or Yan Lo stat 9+ rogue necromancy attack to spam pouncing strikes all day long.

[Meddlesome]

!! The chaos is real with this one, and I love it. This is pretty funny 😆

[Morgan Vening]

5 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Like I just learned about give Seamus cremation with plastic surgery, then use his bonus to ignore italics... Can remove any model from the table as long as he can target them from their table half.

Yeah, this is broken. It still needs a corpse marker within 2" of Seamus, but getting to delete a Master because you were able to flip (or cheat) a 6 and a 7, unsuited and uncontested, on over 80%* of the board, is probably not what was intended.

* Only the Corpse Marker has to be on the opponent's half. A 30mm marker, a 2" range on CfC, Seamus's 30mm base, and an 8" range on cremation means a fraction over 12" into your own table half. Slightly more coverage (closer to 90%) in corner/flank deployment. So unless your opponent's Master can rabbit into your DZ (which could have it's own issues), they're hosed pretty easily.

The Yan Lo one is busted, but it's also fully half your crew, requires it to be T3, requires a fair amount of set-up, and a decent expenditure of resources (even Stat 9 is going to fail against Def 5 misses ~1/5 of the time (meaning cheats), and probably at least two SS for the suits, and runs into problems if it can't get the jumps in (unless I'm missing something).

It's almost as if allowing models to copy abilities off other models is a problem fraught with danger.

[ShinChan]

1 hour ago, Morgan Vening said:

Yeah, this is broken. It still needs a corpse marker within 2" of Seamus, but getting to delete a Master because you were able to flip (or cheat) a 6 and a 7, unsuited and uncontested, on over 80%* of the board, is probably not what was intended.

* Only the Corpse Marker has to be on the opponent's half. A 30mm marker, a 2" range on CfC, Seamus's 30mm base, and an 8" range on cremation means a fraction over 12" into your own table half. Slightly more coverage (closer to 90%) in corner/flank deployment. So unless your opponent's Master can rabbit into your DZ (which could have it's own issues), they're hosed pretty easily.

The Yan Lo one is busted, but it's also fully half your crew, requires it to be T3, requires a fair amount of set-up, and a decent expenditure of resources (even Stat 9 is going to fail against Def 5 misses ~1/5 of the time (meaning cheats), and probably at least two SS for the suits, and runs into problems if it can't get the jumps in (unless I'm missing something).

It's almost as if allowing models to copy abilities off other models is a problem fraught with danger.

It's a Stat 7  turn 1, which is already respectable. In turn 3 it starts to be 9 , which is definitely winning more than 80% of the times.

Also, there is the issue of ignoring the italics on Command Corpse too... So an Stat 6 Obey that can affect Masters. 

[SEV]

Obviously they missed this interaction and it should be emergency errata quickly. Is it?

[Maniacal_cackle]

33 minutes ago, SEV said:

Obviously they missed this interaction and it should be emergency errata quickly. Is it?

I don't see how you emergency errata it without fundamentally changing something on one of the models in question. (Unless you add rules that removing a model does nothing unless it is part of bury/kill)

[SEV]

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I don't see how you emergency errata it without fundamentally changing something on one of the models in question. (Unless you add rules that removing a model does nothing unless it is part of bury/kill)

You emergency erata Seamus 1 so he ignores the requirement of the action only on his on card.

[Math Mathonwy]

I would be very surprised if all the possible dual Master options were tested even once let alone consistently in the beta - there's simply too many. I kinda expect the dual Master format to lose even more popularity in more serious competitive environments now that the number of Masters has been doubled. There's bound to be quite a few utterly broken combos hidden in there that really don't belong in tournaments.

[Maniacal_cackle]

15 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I would be very surprised if all the possible dual Master options were tested even once let alone consistently in the beta - there's simply too many. I kinda expect the dual Master format to lose even more popularity in more serious competitive environments now that the number of Masters has been doubled. There's bound to be quite a few utterly broken combos hidden in there that really don't belong in tournaments.

Yeah, just makes me wish Wyrd would change the default format to singles and let double masters be a weird format for fun and hyjinks if it isn't going to get properly playtested.

[Gheist]

... as there are unofficial FAQs for the working competitive malifaux player there shouldn't really be a problem for all TOs to just set Single Master as standard format? i don't think dual Master was even remotely balanced before malifaux burns, now i shy away from even thinking about it for longer

[Morgan Vening]

10 hours ago, SEV said:

You emergency erata Seamus 1 so he ignores the requirement of the action only on his on card.

Doesn't solve the problem, or at least raises another.

Because it literally says it counts as printed on the card.

At the least, it'd be confusing, if not actually change anything.

[Yore Huckleberry]

My suggestion for fixing the Plastic Surgery/Cremation/Seamus ignores italics interaction would be to change McMourning 2's Plastic Surgery to target a "target friendly experimental or non-master model." That would allow him to self-target, but not work on other masters.

That, or make Vincent's Cremation a action and his Protective Spirits a straight tactical.

But we're definitely in errata territory; there's no RAW or RAI fix for the interaction, apart from Wheaton's Law.

[Morgan Vening]

4 minutes ago, Yore Huckleberry said:

That, or make Vincent's Cremation a action and his Protective Spirits a straight tactical.

Draugr also have it.

But yeah, non-Master is the easiest fix, as Masters are usually the ones most able to abuse things because they're built with so much inherent power.

Would fix the Yan Lo issue too.

[Meddlesome]

Or just Friendly Experimental only for fewest words, same outcome, promotes in KW synergy/play. I'd expect this to be the most logical choice. When you say non-master that means McMourning cannot target himself, and as you can clearly see on his card art, he's not above experimenting on himself 😁

[Yore Huckleberry]

30 minutes ago, Meddlesome said:

Or just Friendly Experimental only for fewest words, same outcome, promotes in KW synergy/play. I'd expect this to be the most logical choice. When you say non-master that means McMourning cannot target himself, and as you can clearly see on his card art, he's not above experimenting on himself 😁

This is why I like "target friendly experimental or non-master model." It allows McMourning to target himself, it allows him to play around for fun and profit in the whole faction, and it precludes other masters. I think janky combos or tech picking should be open to him, but not game-breaking combos.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Assuming titles won't be subject to errata until 2023... I don't see how they fix it, as the only tool in the toolbox is a core rule change.

I guess they could FAQ it to say "a model can only be removed from the table for burying or kill effects." Or something like that.

But that seems super clunky.

[RiceP.]

35 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

as the only tool in the toolbox is a core rule change

Well, core rule changes are also published in the errata.

I don't see why you think that wyrd would not release mini-errata fixing one master's ability. Seems appropriate, since, in this case, it really IS a game breaking interaction, not "few people feeling some crews could be a little too powerful".

[Maniacal_cackle]

5 minutes ago, RiceP. said:

Well, core rule changes are also published in the errata.

I don't see why you think that wyrd would not release mini-errata fixing one master's ability. Seems appropriate, since, in this case, it really IS a game breaking interaction, not "few people feeling some crews could be a little too powerful".

Well, judging by the previous errata, they...

• Don't like doing lots of errata on models (presumably for card reasons)
• Don't like making small changes to models (presumably for card reasons)
• Will not make any errata to the new content (even if the rules don't work - and in this case, they do work, it is just a bit powerful but costs 24-36 stones to pull off).

That said, I can imagine that maybe they'll finally get around to nerfing Seamus and fix this when they do.

If they make changes, they'll want to make lots of changes at once (to minimise how often the cards need to be updated). So tackling Seamus would be the most likely if they want a hot-fix.

[Meddlesome]

1 hour ago, Yore Huckleberry said:

This is why I like "target friendly experimental or non-master model." It allows McMourning to target himself, it allows him to play around for fun and profit in the whole faction, and it precludes other masters. I think janky combos or tech picking should be open to him, but not game-breaking combos.

I can also get on board with this since it'd allow him to plastic surgery models from the opponent onto a friendly or himself. Experimental only would be the more severe nerf of the two, but also more controlled on insane, unchecked combos

[RisingPhoenix]

Honestly Seamus "ignoring italics" thing and any potential for him to take actions not on his card is potentially a disaster.  It's not future proof in the slightest.  All you need is some weird undead that lets other models eat corpses to heal or something and then he can eat enemy masters.  

As an aside, I just realized something interesting.  The Malifaux rulebook has the restrictions of general actions printed in italics - can't charge while engaged, only focus once per activation, no interacts while engaged, etc.

The companion app?  Does not.  No italics at all.

I assume the rulebook is authoritative, but it's interesting the two can potentially be resolved differently based on font... (that was terrible templating on Wyrd's part - as a small issue, some foreign languages like Japanese and Arabic don't even HAVE italics)