Urgent issues for titles.

[Maniacal_cackle]

There's a lot of discussion on titles which we can probably leave for other threads, but I thought it'd be good if we had a place to collate stuff that is the sort that should ideally be addressed before release (rather than waiting for errata).

This includes things like typos, incompatibility with the rules, things that break the game, etc.

So I'll get the ball rolling...

• New Jedza makes geode markers, but they do not have the same destructible trait as other geode markers.
  • Since all markers of the same name should be identical, this seems like an error.
• New Reva Lampads technically come in with 0 health (because they summon before burning reduction).
• New Reva can kill herself if controlled by an enemy when she takes damage 
  • For instance, if you control her with a misdirected rage trigger and make her ping herself with hazardous, she can use the 'kill a nearby friendly model to reduce damage' ability to kill herself.
  • This should probably say 'kill another friendly model'
  • EDIT: For that matter, even if you fix it, she can still kill any friendly if controlled xD

Okay, those are pretty clear-cut and worth addressing I think. Other things I would add to the list:

• Hoffman's impassable markers breaks the game in several ways
  • You can lock strategy markers out of the game
  • You can lock models out of the game
  • My personal take is that the markers should just lose the impassable trait
  • You can read more about this discussion here:
• Mayyyyybe you could argue Kaeris' unresisted damage not being capped is bad design (which I probably would), but not sure it reaches the threshold of 'this needs to change before release'.

I don't think we need to rehash the discussions that have already taken place, but thought it'd be good if there was one place we could post urgent issues for cards to be addressed. Hopefully most of these will be slight mechanical issues/typos/etc.

[Rufess]

How long is the lead time of printing a book? There is one month left before Gen Con, so chance is Wyrd has already submitted their order and unable to change the content.

And, unlike Jedza and Reva, there is no obvious fix to Hoffman and will need to put back to the playtest imo.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, Rufess said:

How long is the lead time of printing a book? There is one month left before Gen Con, so chance is Wyrd has already submitted their order and unable to change the content.

And, unlike Jedza and Reva, there is no obvious fix to Hoffman and will need to put back to the playtest imo.

True, I'm not sure, I just am going by the 'subject to change' printing on the cards. Apparently they have made quick changes before (especially since the book probably is going to be fine if they correct Jedza for instance and just throw in the word 'destructible' for the actual printed cards)

[fire5tone]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

True, I'm not sure, I just am going by the 'subject to change' printing on the cards. Apparently they have made quick changes before (especially since the book probably is going to be fine if they correct Jedza for instance and just throw in the word 'destructible' for the actual printed cards)

No one ever really uses the book itself anyways, the ExSo book had tannenbaum (I think) back replaced with something else

[Maniacal_cackle]

Tara's Rewind ability has a 'suffer 1 damage or remove the echo marker'.

Presumably this is meant to... Well, to do 1 damage to your crew when they decide not to remove the echo marker.

However, since it is an attack action, incorporeal models will not take the damage from this right? Perhaps it should be 1 irreducible damage?

[Raising]

maybe is tara whom takes the damage?

 

[Pallas4]

15 minutes ago, Raising said:

maybe is tara whom takes the damage?

 

Nope.

and the target decides whether to take the damage or not (so echo won't stay on ennemy models).

 

[Axelst]

Maybe incorporeal models reducing the damage is intentional since it rewards playing in keyword.

[Da Git]

2 hours ago, Axelst said:

Maybe incorporeal models reducing the damage is intentional since it rewards playing in keyword.

I hope this is the case. It makes a lot of sense for Tara to be using this on her Void gribblies!

[SEV]

Imo the only real mistake here is the fact that Reva can easily kill herself when obeyed. This was probably not intended and will affect the playability of this master (she just seems weak to me but that's an other story).

The others other can be fix by RAI / common sense (and be faqed later).

Hoffman is obviously a poor design, but the way Wyrd seems to handle these is to let people play with him for a bit and than do an errata.

[Morgan Vening]

56 minutes ago, SEV said:

Imo the only real mistake here is the fact that Reva can easily kill herself when obeyed. This was probably not intended and will affect the playability of this master (she just seems weak to me but that's an other story).

Just a reminder, the Obey action and most similar actions prohibited it it from being used on Masters. There are a few, but it's a relative rarity.

The one Cackle was able to identify, Misdirected Rage, can be found on Lyssa (4SS minion with the suit built in on a Stat 4), and Big Brain Brin (Stat 7 but henchman, but also not something you want in the middle of the fray).

It's still a problem, but it's a lot more cornercase than "she dies to obey".

[Adran]

8 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

Just a reminder, the Obey action and most similar actions prohibited it it from being used on Masters. There are a few, but it's a relative rarity.

The one Cackle was able to identify, Misdirected Rage, can be found on Lyssa (4SS minion with the suit built in on a Stat 4), and Big Brain Brin (Stat 7 but henchman, but also not something you want in the middle of the fray).

It's still a problem, but it's a lot more cornercase than "she dies to obey".

In addition to this, you need to make sure that Reva takes damage during that action. Which can be done if she is in hazardous terrain (and for her burning hazardous would be enough as long as this was the first time she gained burning that activation) or she was able to attack something with a damaging df trigger or ability. 

I'd be willing to bet that none of us would ever see Reva kill herself even if we only played this version of Reva for the rest of this edition. 

[Morgan Vening]

22 minutes ago, Adran said:

 I'd be willing to bet that none of us would ever see Reva kill herself even if we only played this version of Reva for the rest of this edition. 

I'll take that bet!

I wouldn't do it intentionally. I'm just really bad at this game.

[Jinn]

14 minutes ago, Adran said:

In addition to this, you need to make sure that Reva takes damage during that action. Which can be done if she is in hazardous terrain (and for her burning hazardous would be enough as long as this was the first time she gained burning that activation) or she was able to attack something with a damaging df trigger or ability. 

I'd be willing to bet that none of us would ever see Reva kill herself even if we only played this version of Reva for the rest of this edition. 

It will almost certainly happen if someone doesn't see it coming. New Reva loves to hang out in Pyre Markers, it wouldn't be uncommon for a Journalist to hit her with Headline: Secrets Exposed! while she's within 2" of a model with Exclusive Interview.

Is Brin still taken in half of all Bayou lists? Pretty scary incidental threat.

Lyssa's haven't seen much play AFAIK, maybe this is the buff they've been waiting for

[touchdown]

Regarding Reva killing friendlies, how many ways are there to control a master or leader?

[wizuriel]

1 hour ago, Morgan Vening said:

Just a reminder, the Obey action and most similar actions prohibited it it from being used on Masters. There are a few, but it's a relative rarity.

The one Cackle was able to identify, Misdirected Rage, can be found on Lyssa (4SS minion with the suit built in on a Stat 4), and Big Brain Brin (Stat 7 but henchman, but also not something you want in the middle of the fray).

It's still a problem, but it's a lot more cornercase than "she dies to obey".

Misdirected rage though is limited to only  and  actions. Reva would have to already be standing in something for you to damage her with the trigger while obeying her

[Maniacal_cackle]

Misdirected rage isn't too common, but we don't know what the new titles and models will bring.

But for me the journalist controlling interacts is the big one.

[fire5tone]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Misdirected rage isn't too common, but we don't know what the new titles and models will bring.

But for me the journalist controlling interacts is the big one.

We know at the very least that schtook 2 can aswell, I get to murder Reva by making her concentrate too hard 

[Jinn]

4 hours ago, fire5tone said:

We know at the very least that schtook 2 can aswell, I get to murder Reva by making her concentrate too hard 

That one is actually a lot scarier because you can get her to walk, which means staying out of a Pyre Marker doesn't save you.

[Maniacal_cackle]

In another thread, another player pointed out Reva can do this on purpose to avoid opponent getting kill credit (for example, for turf war or future strategies, or for on kill effects).

[Thatguy]

On 8/15/2021 at 9:00 PM, Rufess said:

How long is the lead time of printing a book? There is one month left before Gen Con, so chance is Wyrd has already submitted their order and unable to change the content.

Is the book supposed to be out by GenCon?

 

[Rufess]

14 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

Is the book supposed to be out by GenCon?

 

I guess so

[Thatguy]

So we might get errata, but it looks like what's been spoilered is the final release version.

[Maniacal_cackle]

There is some disagreement on whether the take the hit/vengeance combo works in light of the take the hit FAQ.

I think it does because I think the FAQ is about timing, not about targeting, but would be good to get that clarified before Gwisin release.

Edit: apparently Waldo's weekly implies it works, but that is hardly ironclad:

On the Malifaux table, these 6 Soulstone Incorporeal models will help keep nearby friendlies alive with Take the Hit and will make opponents question whether their attacks are worth the risk, thanks to Vengeance +2.

[Maladroit]

On 8/19/2021 at 6:47 AM, Maniacal_cackle said:

There is some disagreement on whether the take the hit/vengeance combo works in light of the take the hit FAQ.

I think it does because I think the FAQ is about timing, not about targeting, but would be good to get that clarified before Gwisin release.

Edit: apparently Waldo's weekly implies it works, but that is hardly ironclad:

On the Malifaux table, these 6 Soulstone Incorporeal models will help keep nearby friendlies alive with Take the Hit and will make opponents question whether their attacks are worth the risk, thanks to Vengeance +2.

I would interpret the FAQ the other way actually RAW. From the FAQ. "However, some effects may change the target of the Action, in which case that new model is not targeted and as such those effects aren’t generated a second time. " I see where you are coming from, but this seems pretty black-and-white - that statement is not dependent on anything I can see. Strangely we seem to end up in a situation where neither model applies Vengence. The new target is not targeted, and Vengence specifically requires the model to be targeted, rather than to become the target. FAQ says it isn't. And Vengance requires damage, and the first model is not taking damage.