The new Zoraida

[Math Mathonwy]

We got out first Bayou reveal!

[Math Mathonwy]

Got to say that this new Zoraida seems, at first glance, a bit weaker than the original version.

I mean, she doesn't look bad as such but the original is quite potent while this one seems kinda middle of the pack. Missing out on the Obey and on the hand drop is huge and getting the Totem is kinda awkward for the new version.

Keeping up Stunned can be huge on something like a Rider but Bayou Zoraida isn't especially amazing in applying Stunned in the first place. 

Moth Witch - both Walk and Interact have interesting possibilities though throwing away cards is kinda big and of course Zoraida herself needs to do the action (not a problem with Walk and with Interact I suppose you can eat the Marker later with Lost Knowledge.

Her durability is a bit weird. Protected is of course big but Swampfiend doesn't have all that many models that want to stay near Zoraida and do that stuff. Df 5 and 12 Wounds isn't much without it, though.

Guppify is funny but it'll never happen. It will force the opponent to play around, though, so I'm not saying that it is useless. Other than that, Bumps and Boils is kinda mediocre for a Master attack but naturally Stun can be huge against the correct target.

Off the Path is fine. The Concealment thingy can be very annoying for certain opponents. 

Summoning Effigies (and Wicked Dolls or the Totem) is nice enough but the original Summons the Totem without using AP. Eating Markers can be good against some enemies and netting cards off of it can certainly be nice. Forcing an Activation without any restrictions can be massive for some Strats and can be used to shut off Manipulative and such.

Witch's Brew is a pretty weird buff. I'm not sure how amazing it is but certainly not bad.

Everything having Range 8" is kinda interesting.

[Math Mathonwy]

The Kurgan looks quite potent. Lots of movement stuff, durable, and Mudslide looks superb.

If there are big forests on the table, the melee can be very annoying. 

[SEV]

Nice design again. Indeed weaker than the orginal models (but mama Z is probably one of the top 5 masters in the game). She can do some neat think. As a lot of new title master, she got a boost for all the scheme requiring scheme marker (arguably She could prove herself better than Old Z in an heavy scheme markers pool).

Lost effigy as no faction requirement, so she can summons all the effigy of the game (and Manequin as well). This is really interesting! 

Vodoo doll seems a good target to redirect damage for protected.

The new enforcer allowed summons or cards draw every turn. He looks like a good tarpit with a lot of movement trick.

It will be hard to not declare old Z in tournament, but this one requires testing for sure!

[Clement]

The ability to summon any puppet is a flavor win, but they JUST forced them all into larger boxes.  That's going to hurt dropping all that money for a mountain of emissaries, coryphee, etc that can't be used.  Hopefully there's a repack?

[Scoffer]

2 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Witch's Brew is a pretty weird buff. I'm not sure how amazing it is but certainly not bad.

It is absolutely amazing. Every model in keyword becomes great with +1 buff to every Stat. Imagine MV8 Adze! Or gators with stat 6 on their attack with built-in positive to damage. Even McTavish becomes a good model with defensive stats of 6 and stat 6 gun. The First Mate becomes a leaping angel of death with mv7 and stat 7 attack. 

 

2 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Moth Witch - both Walk and Interact have interesting possibilities though throwing away cards is kinda big and of course Zoraida herself needs to do the action (not a problem with Walk and with Interact I suppose you can eat the Marker later with Lost Knowledge

Concentrate is a general action too. 

2 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Missing out on the Obey

You can have two Bokors with stat6 Obeys.

2 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Guppify is funny but it'll never happen. It will force the opponent to play around, though, so I'm not saying that it is useless. Other than that, Bumps and Boils is kinda mediocre for a Master attack but naturally Stun can be huge against the correct target.

Despite it's low min damage it's very good. With it we can finally get some use of Penetrating stench. A lot of use. Hit a model engaging a couple of gators, give it stunned and force to discard with Guppify. Force that model to activate with mask trigger on Lost Knowledge. Congratulations! Your opponent has just lost 3 cards. Use Sammy for some more discards and your enemies are ready to be eaten.

[Thatguy]

3 hours ago, Scoffer said:

Concentrate is a general action too. 

Yeah that was my thought too. 

6 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Guppify is funny but it'll never happen. It will force the opponent to play around, though, so I'm not saying that it is useless

Yeah. Anything that forces the opponent to take more stones or hero cards in thier pool is good imo. 

Zorida 2 looks like she's very heavy into schemes. Like with a body guard like Bad Juju or Krogan she can delete schemes in the center or use Moth Witch, which has unlimited no los range, to make stuff like Slurids even better at scheme running. 

 

[SEV]

So if you take the interact action with Z using moth witch, you can have her drop a scheme, an other model can remove all scheme in base and a third on can interact with a strat marker righ (because those are all possibilities from the interact action).

That could lead to huge game swing, by denying a scheme a scoring yours all in the same activation!

[Thatguy]

6 hours ago, SEV said:

So if you take the interact action with Z using moth witch, you can have her drop a scheme, an other model can remove all scheme in base and a third on can interact with a strat marker righ (because those are all possibilities from the interact action

Yeah. It's not like if you walked you'd have to walk the same way. Scoring Spread them Out with one AP is pretty big. 

 

Thinking about it more, Effigies are pretty good at trying things up to. Armor 1, hard to kill, and 4 wounds can tie up even a beater for a bit. 

 

[Math Mathonwy]

Yeah, Effigies are very interesting Summons as they provide a giant box of various abilities. Tons of healing in various ways but also Lure, Condition Removal, disrupting enemy cheating, Bayou Two-card, and even Soulstones. And they come on board without Slow or nasty Summon Upgrades or anything like that. The problem naturally is that collecting all of the Effigies is extremely expensive and all of them offer some form of unique utility.

Of course they do compete with the Voodoo Doll who makes for a very nice Protector for Zoraida.

If you had to choose three, which Effigies would you consider the most important? I think that my picks would be Arcane (for Condition Removal), Mysterious (for Lure), and one of the healing ones with Hodgepodge probably being the most straightforward (though it is worth noting that Mannequin can also heal the living and has a lower TN). Honorary mention for Shadow due to Remember the Mission.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think Shadow Effigy seems like a must, since you can combo it with her ability that lets you triple a general action. So effigy makes zoraida interact, and she discards 2 cards and then two other models on the table interact.

[Math Mathonwy]

4 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think Shadow Effigy seems like a must, since you can combo it with her ability that lets you triple a general action. So effigy makes zoraida interact, and she discards 2 cards and then two other models on the table interact.

Yeah, probably.

One thing worth mentioning is that Effigies aren't Swampfiends so Kurgan's Mudslide can be annoying for them.

[fire5tone]

37 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Yeah, Effigies are very interesting Summons as they provide a giant box of various abilities. Tons of healing in various ways but also Lure, Condition Removal, disrupting enemy cheating, Bayou Two-card, and even Soulstones. And they come on board without Slow or nasty Summon Upgrades or anything like that. The problem naturally is that collecting all of the Effigies is extremely expensive and all of them offer some form of unique utility.

Of course they do compete with the Voodoo Doll who makes for a very nice Protector for Zoraida.

If you had to choose three, which Effigies would you consider the most important? I think that my picks would be Arcane (for Condition Removal), Mysterious (for Lure), and one of the healing ones with Hodgepodge probably being the most straightforward (though it is worth noting that Mannequin can also heal the living and has a lower TN). Honorary mention for Shadow due to Remember the Mission.

We were talking about this in the vassal server, and I think we concluded with the 3 being arcane (for conditions and gun) shadow, and lucky for being really generically useful,

If your going outside of just effigies mannequins can be quite nice aswell

Mind that this is a keyword with bokors so healing isn't as important as it is elsewhere

[Stumpyfjord]

Brutal for the end of game bury, particularly after forcing a claim jump, hidden martyr, etc model to activate is going to swing games.

[dancater]

I think this is a perpetual question because all of the Effigies can have a significant impact at the right moment in the game.

The question is which three will nearly always do at least something in, lets say a two turn mid-game period, with agnostic strats and schemes and against pretty much any opposition.

More likely you'll be looking at the Effigies which buff your crew (so predictable) over impact opposition/game state, which is inherently less predictable.

A good attack is useful, with a ranged attack better than just melee. Obviously the more survivable the better, if only to drain attacks.

• Shadow is great, only melee attack, but free interact and can grant concealment
• Carrion is solid, good short ranged attack with injured, heal is undead only so meh, can block healing and stones to reduce damage which is potentially lethal
• Hodgepodge is great, again average melee attack, slightly poorer survivability, but a heal and potential to reap soul stones is excellent
• Mysterious is solid, below average (for Effigy) melee attack, but a lure (although hard to stick at base 4) is great, aura of deception is useful
• Brutal is great, nice ranged attack, pine box could really be a irritant if you get the opportunity, a heal which is circumstantial but still its a heal
• Intrepid is great, average melee but includes a crew buff trigger, a push is super flexible and useful, a heal which is circumstantial but still its a heal
• Lucky is great, below average melee with a ok trigger, but a short ranged slow is good, and aura of luck is very useful to mess with opponent and preserve hand
• Arcane is solid, ranged attack helps but its not a great attack, end conditions is almost always useful but only almost always, negation aura is good but can be worked around

So I'd first bracket them as the good - Arcane, Mysterious, Carrion then the great - Brutal, Intrepid, Lucky, Shadow, Hodgepodge

Then I'd order the great, so;

1. Intrepid: the push is simply gold, always useful for your crew, potentially great on opposition, add a circumstantial heal and a melee attack with focus buff trigger
2. Shadow: interact is plain game winning useful in almost any circumstance, concealment is usually useful
3. Hodgepodge: a shade less durable (Df 4), but the heal is great and the chance to reap a soul stone is the tipping point for my mind
4. Lucky: I think 3-5 is really close but ranged slow and top deck cheating is while not game winning certainly as aggravating as hell and universally useful
5. Brutal: pine box is good but how often it works is debatable, ranged attack is best for the Effigies I think but you aren't summoning them to kill, the heal is situational
6. Mysterious: the lure is good if you can get it off and aura of deception is at least fun and occasionally decisive
7. Carrion: ranged attack with injured, the heal is extremely limited so discount it, but blocking heals and soul stone use to reduce damage that is golden at the right moment
8. Arcane: this little puppet leaps up the chain depending on opponent could be as high as three if you need condition removal desperately, but as a general option it is the most generally situational, ranged attack but its nothing special, condition removal is average to essential but circumstantial, negation aura is good but the least reliable of the range of great Effigy tricks because the opponent can plan around it

So that's my Effigy order. Assuming you have them all, or if you're planning to target purchase specific Effigies. 

[fire5tone]

9 minutes ago, dancater said:

 

Then I'd order the great, so;

1. Intrepid: the push is simply gold, always useful for your crew, potentially great on opposition, add a circumstantial heal and a melee attack with focus buff trigger
2. Shadow: interact is plain game winning useful in almost any circumstance, concealment is usually useful
3. Hodgepodge: a shade less durable (Df 4), but the heal is great and the chance to reap a soul stone is the tipping point for my mind
4. Lucky: I think 3-5 is really close but ranged slow and top deck cheating is while not game winning certainly as aggravating as hell and universally useful
5. Brutal: pine box is good but how often it works is debatable, ranged attack is best for the Effigies I think but you aren't summoning them to kill, the heal is situational
6. Mysterious: the lure is good if you can get it off and aura of deception is at least fun and occasionally decisive
7. Carrion: ranged attack with injured, the heal is extremely limited so discount it, but blocking heals and soul stone use to reduce damage that is golden at the right moment
8. Arcane: this little puppet leaps up the chain depending on opponent could be as high as three if you need condition removal desperately, but as a general option it is the most generally situational, ranged attack but its nothing special, condition removal is average to essential but circumstantial, negation aura is good but the least reliable of the range of great Effigy tricks because the opponent can plan around it

So that's my Effigy order. Assuming you have them all, or if you're planning to target purchase specific Effigies. 

The issue with healing, is that you, again, have bokors in keyword, and given the fact that you no longer have an obey, you almost certainly will bring them, if you could only have 3, to cover as much ground as you can I'd go lucky for being a great all-rounder, shadow because remember the mission can turn into 3 interacts via moth witch, and arcane, because condition removal isn't super common, and it can *really* do some damage, past that, brutal or intrepid, the models that specialize in healing come after those and carrion is... Just a gun

[Gorsk]

Is there a reason folks are focusing on just three effigies?

[Morgan Vening]

14 minutes ago, Gorsk said:

Is there a reason folks are focusing on just three effigies?

I figure the diminishing returns on Summoning?

Anything summoned in the 5th turn is unlikely to do anything meaningful, and even the 4th turn is pushing it, as the action to summon is probably better spent on something else, or at least the other trigger.

[fire5tone]

18 minutes ago, Gorsk said:

Is there a reason folks are focusing on just three effigies?

Price aswell, the boxes these effigies come in are... Expensive, so minimizing your options so you only get what will give you the most out of 3 effigies

[dancater]

7 hours ago, Gorsk said:

Is there a reason folks are focusing on just three effigies?

I think it's mainly a issue of price and prioritising.

With the Effigies packed in with Emissaries they are pretty expensive, so for those who really want to invest the decision is where to invest, in what order and why.

8 hours ago, fire5tone said:

The issue with healing, is that you, again, have bokors in keyword, and given the fact that you no longer have an obey, you almost certainly will bring them, if you could only have 3, to cover as much ground as you can I'd go lucky for being a great all-rounder, shadow because remember the mission can turn into 3 interacts via moth witch, and arcane, because condition removal isn't super common, and it can *really* do some damage, past that, brutal or intrepid, the models that specialize in healing come after those and carrion is... Just a gun

I don't disagree. My breakdown was entirely based on a clear field, no specific crew on your side, no specific models in the opposition.

Obviously if you field a crew regularly which specifically covers a task that a certain Effigy does, well that reduces the necessity of summoning that Effigy, based on redundancy, and increases the respective value of the others. But I cannot realistically factor in everyone's "normal" crew selection with MamaZ. Certainly if you always field a Bokor or two then that reduces the need for any of the healing Effigies, Hodgepodge, Brutal and Carrion, and in particular the Hodgepodge as without needing the heal its utility plummets.

As to the Arcane Effigy, I main Arcanists, I love the little book-nerd. But condition removal is, well conditional. If I had to limit my purchasing/pack for game selection to three Effigies, going to a multi-game event/day, with no idea as to opposition etc. Then I'd pack as I've outlined above, with the addendum that if I am pretty certain my crew selection will cover healing then it would be Intrepid, Shadow and Lucky. I am simply certain that in a random selection of three games against unknown opposition I'll find a solid use for at least one of those three as a summons in each game.

Building on a budget, that's the way I'd go. As someone who is a sad git and owns (having bought them before they were double packed with Emissary, and owning some in metal as well playing from 1st ed. onwards) all but the Intrepid and plans at some point to but the mini-me Lion statue I'd actually pack all three and would be shocked if the occasion didn't arise when my height challenged book-nerd was not the go to reach from my bag. But if I did not main Arcanists, and did not already own most of the Effigies I'd prioritise my purchases above (barring all other factors, I mean obviously if you run MamaZ it would be worth getting Lucky and Mysterious right of the bat as you have Neverborn and Bayou play for both Effigy and Emissary for example). 

[dancater]

8 hours ago, Morgan Vening said:

I figure the diminishing returns on Summoning?

Anything summoned in the 5th turn is unlikely to do anything meaningful, and even the 4th turn is pushing it, as the action to summon is probably better spent on something else, or at least the other trigger.

Also, yes in a certain way you are correct. The summons is more powerful the earlier in the game it is done. But....

This post isn't really about that, mainly because its very unlikely that you have more than one or two Effigies on the table, at the outside three, at one time. So, while I guess a different Effigy could be the useful summons on each different turn of the game with a fluid game state that doesn't really matter on prioritising. And the reason you're unlikely to have more than say three Effigies is, one the little fellows aren't especially resilient and their are also the Dolls and even Mannequin as summons. So assume you field one (Lucky in Bayou) then summon another turn 1 and another turn 2 you're at 3 Effigies up, I'd be amazed if one hasn't died by turn 3 and you could resummon it. That is assuming the Dolls and Mannequin aren't a summon option. That also assumes your crew starts with an Effigy, and because you can summon them the only reason I see to do so is for the Emissary grow attachment. In a game where I have the opportunity to summon and field four or more Effigies on the table at once, well I figure that's a rare game and one I'm probably winning so I'm not tremendously worried that I only brought 3. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

A big issue is that a lot of effigies have niche plays.

For instance if you have a really high card in hand and want to kill something with pine box on turn 5.

[Gorsk]

Thanks for the insight.  As someone who has not yet played with the revised summoning rules, it was interesting to consider the late game ramifications.

Also, being a bayou collector, I’m happy to see the lucky effigy being useful in this crew too.

[Azahul]

Worth noting is the cost too. I mean at minimum in order to get the summon you need:

-A marker within 8 (which will often represent a lost AP from a model of yours)

-A 5+

-A tome

-The 2 cards you give up by not resolving the action.

 

On their own none of those seem onerous, but look at how many Discard a Card effects are on Zoraida's card. There's a good bit of draw, sure, but you're eating into that dramatically with every summon.

 

Which incidentally is why I think the Lucky Effigy will be the most important of the bunch (maybe tied with the Shadow, Shadow is very good). You really want to minimise your hand pressure.

[GrumpyGrandpa]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but are there any restrictions that say Zoraida cannot choose herself as "one of the friendly swampfiends in play"? Only think you can use it to double walk, but still.