Ideas for upcoming errata (outcast)

[RisingPhoenix]

I fully expect Wyrd will say "yep, Hannah is phrased correctly".  Because as I said, 3 action 9-10 soulstone models are practically the norm.  We can add Yasunori (onslaught), The First Mate (fast), Sensei Yu (hands out fast), Manos (Leap with attack trigger and suit gain), Bishop (fast), War Pigs (Reckless), Howard Langston (free attack/walk), Joss (Bonus action obey), Ototo (assassin), The Judge (Bonus action 2/4/5 attack), Whiskey Golem (nimble)... you know, I've made my point.  

You'll tend to notice a theme in ones that are 2 action, and that is that they're doing something outside their activation (like Hayridden summoning Terror Tots whenever something is killed) or that they're not actually all that good*.  That's why Arik is often considered a counterpick model, if you're not getting value out of the Gravity Well he's actually not great.  

*Or are Kitty Dumont and have Action: Draw 3 cards, because who cares what else is printed on the card when you can take an action to draw 3?

[SerZaka]

15 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Ototo (assassin)

Every Last Blossom have Assassin ... Poor Ototo

Sorry for the interruption , I read Ototo and I had to write something even if this is not my land xD 

[RisingPhoenix]

I mean sure, and most of Parker's Crew have Life of Crime, not just Mad Dog.  It's still Fast.

Don't try to tell me Ototo is bad and Ten Thunders has bad models.  I actually try to avoid listing them too often because their models are so good.

[SerZaka]

Ototo is the best buddy ever.  He can finally shine after a second edition in the closet . But this is not the TT subforum so I will take my leave in favour of the real thread topic 

[Jesy Blue]

2 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

But instead she's Viktoria's only Henchmen.  She's literally the Viks only in-keyword Henchman.  And boy would you often be better off spending 10 soulstones for Alyce (who again has 3 actions).  Hannah has 3 actions and Arcane Reservoir (which is certainly worth a stone).  Mad Dog Brackett has 3 actions (fast).

I love Viktoria and i only take Taelor as an antisummoning tech piece.... where she excels in that role.

She even sucks in Henchman Hardcore because there's no summoning in that game!

[LexLock]

2 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

I love Viktoria and i only take Taelor as an antisummoning tech piece.... where she excels in that role.

She even sucks in Henchman Hardcore because there's no summoning in that game!

Which summoner does she counter?

[Houseballey]

23 minutes ago, LexLock said:

Which summoner does she counter?

none, she's just a mild inconvenience

[LexLock]

I think they should have Welcome to Malifaux work on all place effects but make it once per turn to prevent abuse (its like a more situational flurry that you can get movement out of).

Also, if you've seen Taelor's new art she has a bottle of alcohol in one hand, so it'd be a good excuse to give her a healing bonus action to make her less fragile.

Lastly, the Mercenary crew as a whole is lacking in card draw / manipulation / access toflips which makes them a bit lacklustre compared to more consistently beaty crews (Lady J has the Judge/scales, Nekima has focus spam, Levi has scavengers and is self sufficient, Misaki has the Tanuki and models with) maybe they could be improved by fixing one of our sub-par upgrades and making it provide consistent card draw.

[Jesy Blue]

1 hour ago, LexLock said:

Which summoner does she counter?

I had a good turn out with her vs Dashel, as well as Hamelin.  I don't take Vik's often so I didn't have enough chances to try it.

[CustosUmbra]

1 hour ago, Jesy Blue said:

7 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

I fully expect Wyrd will say "yep, Hannah is phrased correctly".  Because as I said, 3 action 9-10 soulstone models are practically the norm.  We can add Yasunori (onslaught), The First Mate (fast), Sensei Yu (hands out fast), Manos (Leap with attack trigger and suit gain), Bishop (fast), War Pigs (Reckless), Howard Langston (free attack/walk), Joss (Bonus action obey), Ototo (assassin), The Judge (Bonus action 2/4/5 attack), Whiskey Golem (nimble)... you know, I've made my point.  

You'll tend to notice a theme in ones that are 2 action, and that is that they're doing something outside their activation (like Hayridden summoning Terror Tots whenever something is killed) or that they're not actually all that good*.

So.. What's Obliteration's substitute for a third action? Does the ability to give out fast to the enemies and *sometimes* managing to get one for yourself without smacking your own models with 10SS Henchman count? 

 

[S4lt]

13 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

I fully expect Wyrd will say "yep, Hannah is phrased correctly".  Because as I said, 3 action 9-10 soulstone models are practically the norm.  We can add Yasunori (onslaught), The First Mate (fast), Sensei Yu (hands out fast), Manos (Leap with attack trigger and suit gain), Bishop (fast), War Pigs (Reckless), Howard Langston (free attack/walk), Joss (Bonus action obey), Ototo (assassin), The Judge (Bonus action 2/4/5 attack), Whiskey Golem (nimble)... you know, I've made my point.  

You'll tend to notice a theme in ones that are 2 action, and that is that they're doing something outside their activation (like Hayridden summoning Terror Tots whenever something is killed) or that they're not actually all that good*.  That's why Arik is often considered a counterpick model, if you're not getting value out of the Gravity Well he's actually not great.  

*Or are Kitty Dumont and have Action: Draw 3 cards, because who cares what else is printed on the card when you can take an action to draw 3?

If that's the case then Hannah needs to go up in cost. I'm not playing it that way and happily paying 11ss out of keyword for her.

Siphon power and easy access to focus takes her damage track to insane levels. 

[RisingPhoenix]

21 hours ago, CustosUmbra said:

 

Christ, lets avoid buffing Obliteration, shall we?  Tara's already arguably the strongest outcast master, and inarguably top 3.  Obliteration's substitute for it, such as it is, is that they have an infinitely mobile crew with the ability to bury themselves and teleport across the entire battlefield, a 5 AP master that hands you activation control, a 6 stone henchman with a 3/4/5 damage track and the ability to rip all conditions off an enemy and do 2 damage per condition, summoning, and the ability to drain AP away from your enemy by just burying any model that strays from their bubble and kicking it right back to the bubble.  Plus absurd levels of activation control that resemble M2E Hamlin, and Aionius' ability to literally cancel enemy activations from anywhere on the board (they just... don't activate.  That costs you a pass token).  Oh and a crew that can all focus fire and kill a model from anywhere on the board.  Effectively infinite range guns if they need to kill something, as long as one of them can get off a Glimpse the Void.  

No, The Nothing Beast is not the strongest 9 stone model in the entire game.  It's not top 10, it's probably not top 20.  The crew has a few other things going on.  

[touchdown]

I Taelor is worth 9 stones in a vacuum, but she's not worth 10 and she's rarely worth bringing in mercenary because there's zero synergy (I guess once every 5 matches you'll line it up so she can hit something after a Vik with That One Counts as Mine), and she doesn't bring much the Viks aren't already doing for you. I don't think they can fix the latter problem with errata but versatile could at least let other crews use her.

Or change bloody fate to good for a laugh so there's real card draw.

[Adran]

8 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Plus absurd levels of activation control that resemble M2E Hamlin, and Aionius' ability to literally cancel enemy activations from anywhere on the board (they just... don't activate.  That costs you a pass token).

 

Just checking that you realise they will still get to activate the model later, so you are trading activation control ( it's like you spent your pass token to chain activate so it sort of costs you 2 activation) for order control. 

( not counting that I generally spend a lot of effort trying to get any fast on enemy models. And if you don't use that activation to remove their fast you still have to face that model with extra AP). 

[CustosUmbra]

13 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

 Plus absurd levels of activation control that resemble M2E Hamlin, and Aionius' ability to literally cancel enemy activations from anywhere on the board (they just... don't activate.  That costs you a pass token).  

1) Not from anywhere, just within LoS which can be obscured in numerous ways, if you find the delayed activation troublesome. 

2) The target must have Fast.

3) Aionus must have Pass Tokens. So he either must have fewer models or use one of his 2 AP to get some. 

4) The model that would skip its activation still gets to activate later, which is meaningless if you don't mind activating it last. 

[RisingPhoenix]

17 hours ago, Adran said:

Just checking that you realise they will still get to activate the model later, so you are trading activation control ( it's like you spent your pass token to chain activate so it sort of costs you 2 activation) for order control. 

( not counting that I generally spend a lot of effort trying to get any fast on enemy models. And if you don't use that activation to remove their fast you still have to face that model with extra AP). 

Yes, I do know how my own models work, thank you.  It allows you enormous control over their actions.  For instance if they set up a beater to dive on you, you can give it fast, and then prevent it from activating while you kill it.  This trades activation control for AP advantage (their big beater model simply never goes, it just dies).  If you do it right, you can get an entire round of attacks on it with your activation control from the round before, go, prevent it from activating, and get another set of attacks on it.  

If you think Obliteration is weak, try playing it for ten or so games, and focus on what plays you can make every turn.  There's infinite clever plays you can make, which is the reason Tara is winning so much.  It's definitely not an Outcast keyword that needs any buffs.   At the moment all it needs is Void Hunter models so I can stop using a proxy.

Oh and you almost always get 2 pass tokens with Aionus turns 1 and 2.  It's a really ridiculous ability.  

[Adran]

6 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Yes, I do know how my own models work, thank you.  It allows you enormous control over their actions.  For instance if they set up a beater to dive on you, you can give it fast, and then prevent it from activating while you kill it.  This trades activation control for AP advantage (their big beater model simply never goes, it just dies).  If you do it right, you can get an entire round of attacks on it with your activation control from the round before, go, prevent it from activating, and get another set of attacks on it.  

If you think Obliteration is weak, try playing it for ten or so games, and focus on what plays you can make every turn.  There's infinite clever plays you can make, which is the reason Tara is winning so much.  It's definitely not an Outcast keyword that needs any buffs.   At the moment all it needs is Void Hunter models so I can stop using a proxy.

Oh and you almost always get 2 pass tokens with Aionus turns 1 and 2.  It's a really ridiculous ability.  

Fair enough, You'd be surprised the number of people that do mis-read things, and the way you phrased it wasn't clear that you had it right, enough so that I thought it was worth clarifying for people that didn't know even if you did. 

I don't think Obliteration is weak, but whilst I agree Buffering has the potential to be good, its something I've found to be only situationally useful. It requires me to have pass tokens, which as a summoner probably means I have had to activate in a set way before hand, as I need to make sure I have a model buried, and I also need to have activated Aionius and his ability.  It also typically requires me to win the duel to give them fast, and have my crew set up to take advantage of the beater, and probably be able to kill it in 2 activations. It also is much less use if my opponent has more than 1 good activation possible because then they just don't activate the fast model if they don't want to.  Its not exclusively a way to take advantage of an enemy mistake, but certainly the best of situations you listed do sound like they are most likely to occur after my opponent has made a mistake.

It could also be the way I play. I generally don't like Companion and similar abilities, and rarely use them, and this can be a weak companion, so I don't look to maximise it, because I don't often like the outcome. (The described outcome you have is when it is worth it, but I've seen lots of people use companion, and other such things for no real benefit a lot of the time).  

[Zebo]

What do you think about give a look to Von Schill's Equipment Upgrades? 

I think some of them are in really good place, but costing a Master's action and being of one use, maybe some of them could be a little improved. 

The Rocket Boots and the Rocket Launcher are really good upgrades. 

The Reinforced Assault Shield is also good, but being a Master action maybe shielded +2 is a bit short, don't think it would break the game making it Shielded +3 and make it to last more than two hits. 

The Land Mines are useful, but I keep feeling bad for being worse a Minefield than a Pit Trap, it's a nonsense. It should be Hazardous (damage 2) but I understand it would be completely out of control so much damage per action, but at least they could be also Injured +1 like the Pit traps, or maybe staggered or something. Or maybe make something like Hazardous (damage 1 2) and make it dangerous also for the models near the marker? Don't know just an idea, but really seems bad that a hole with sticks is better than a explosive mine. 

The Grenade Belt is definitely the upgrade that needs help the most. I think both grenades should have some extra effect for being an option. Make the Clockwork Grenade add Injured +1 to its effect, and make a good offensive option; and make the Flash Grenade add Stunned and make of it a good disruptive option. 

[Jesy Blue]

One thijng you're missing us the synergy of the other Freikorp models.

Freikorpsmann can hold onto the upgrades after use, so Rocket Launchers all day, or continual leaping with Rocket Boots, or Shielding for days, etc.... and with so much healing in the crew, a point here or there is insignificant.

Librarians already have Shieled +1 (and Armor +1); they are currently hard to take down with the Reinforced Assault Shield, giving them more Shielding borders on asinine.  Also, Engineers can hand out Shielding to constructs... which is all non-minion Friekorps models; can you imagine shielding 4 or 5 on Henchmen or Von Schill, who already have armor?

[Zebo]

In fact, Engineers give shielded to any model, construct or not, what they do to constructs is to heal 1.

And shielding 4/5 is already a thing, there's no need to imagine. Any Freikorps with an Assault Shield and the Engineer tactical is on Shielded 4, and 5 if it's the Librarian. 

I don't see the Shielded +3 from Von Schill as a big thing, it's a Master AP for shielded. 

[Jesy Blue]

Its a master so that will have ramifications for the rest of the game. 

Turn 1, activation 1, every game without fail give a shield to the Librarian, I give a shield to the other librarian, then something else depending on the situation; I have yet have a librarian lose the upgrade for the rest of the game.  Unless you do 3 attacks on the same model in the same turn you're just getting that 3 Shielding back again, and if those attacks aren't at minimum 5, 4, & 3 damage, the Librarian is not even wounded through all of that.

That is a great expenditure of a master action in my opinion, especially that early in the game.

[Zebo]

I usually don't put the Shield on the Librarian, but on one of the Henchman (or both). 

Also use to prioritize the Rocket Boots a bit over the Shield. 

But those are my preferences. 

Anyway, obviously you think Reinforced Assault Shield is good as it is, and I think it wouldn't be bad to see it get an extra bit for not seeing it going down in a single activation of any model. 

Not saying the Shield is bad, only that it could be a bit improved and yet wouldn't be too strong. 

[Jesy Blue]

I kind of do a bunched up crew huddled around the Emissary and dare to be taken out, so mobility is not my goal when using them hence why I don't prioritise the boots (if I wanted movement I'd go with Zipp).

Different strokes for different folks; different crews for different..... what rhymes with crews?

[Morgan Vening]

13 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

Different strokes for different folks; different crews for different..... what rhymes with crews?

Not necessarily grammatically correct, but "different crews for different you's"?

[Jinn]

1 hour ago, Jesy Blue said:

and if those attacks aren't at minimum 5, 4, & 3 damage, the Librarian is not even wounded through all of that.

How so? Shielded only reduces damage by 1, so doing 3 damage should always be wounding a Librarian, no matter their shielded, unless I'm missing something.