New player - does the cultural appropriation bother anyone else?

[TheJoyInGaming]

4 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

Linda Martín Alcoff writes that this is often seen in cultural outsiders' use of an oppressed culture's symbols or other cultural elements, such as music, dance, spiritual ceremonies, modes of dress, speech, and social behaviour when these elements are trivialized and used for fashion, rather than respected within their original cultural context.

From wikipedia, but I feel it's a pretty accurate description. Thus many people would not call it cultural appropriation unless the culture is somehow in a vulnerable position.

I would also point out that according to that definition nothing in the 10T faction aside from maybe Samurais is really cultural appropriation.

Thanks very much for the explanation. Based on the definition I came to the same conclusion.

 

[Necrokamo]

8 hours ago, DarrenG said:

Hey all.

I'm fairly new to Malifaux. It used to be rather big around our area but died off quite a bit until 3rd ed. Now it's having a bit of a revival and I was wanting to jump onboard. I picked out a faction, outcasts, and have got a few models.

I was just wondering if anybody else was kinda put off by the way that 'Eastern'-themed models are depicted in the game? It does seem that a rather large number of pretty much any faction, especially the Ten Thunders but also Ressurrectionists and Arcanists, seem to have a LOT of fetishised exoticism with how it approaches characters from other cultures.

It's not so much that it's not thematically appropriate and so on, and most of the models are tasteful (with a few exceptions), but a lot of it does border on or push across the line of appropriating other cultures for use in a game. I won't lie, when I look at models like Wong I kinda do feel quite a lot of discomfort.

I'm definitely not looking to start an argument or cause a flame war here or anything, but I'm curious if I'm the only person who feels this way and, if not, how you deal with this in your games? Do you just, like, turn a blind eye to it?

 Here we go again...

 I passed a screenshot to some friends from another forum and they confirmed that it is the same text that was published (from a series of 3 posts about "what is culturally correct") and generated great opposition in  that forum, because it was related to groups that censor other media such as movies, comics and video games (the theme of a developer harassed by hate groups was mentioned).

The moderators better be careful with these publications.

[Kharnage]

9 minutes ago, Necrokamo said:

 Here we go again...

 I passed a screenshot to some friends from another forum and they confirmed that it is the same text that was published (from a series of 3 posts about "what is culturally correct") and generated great opposition in  that forum, because it was related to groups that censor other media such as movies, comics and video games (the theme of a developer harassed by hate groups was mentioned).

The moderators better be careful with these publications.

Can you clarify what you mean here? Are you saying that this post was posted elsewhere and shut down for censorship? Why post the same text in multiple places?

[Necrokamo]

The reason why they posted this here I don't know, but this was posted in the Malifaux group of reddit weeks ago and the posts were deleted after a few days.  One user mentioned that he knew that theme of putting "this character does not seem right or this design seems offensive, you have to complain to the company" in other forums ... hence they appeared, if I'm not mistaken, two  similar publications that they should have put this or that better to be "correct" ... in short, I made my comment because it caught my attention and I remembered what the user I mentioned, that seemed paranoia but now maybe I give him the benefit  of doubt because it is the 2nd time that I see this subject open in a group of Malifaux.

[Ogid]

Well... this post came from an account with only 1 post... this one, and he never bothered to reply to any of the opinions given here... so it's not impossible that it come from some group trying to be insidious... or maybe he got scared of the 16  (at the time of writting) and run away XDD.

[Myyrä]

It seems that this person (or someone) did post the exact same post in reddit. I checked, google still remembered it.

My question is: So what?

The reddit account it was posted from, didn't seem like a troll account, so unless it wasn't used by its owner, I find it likely that the OP wasn't trying anything malicious. Even though they seemed to hold some unpopular opinions. Just because the response in reddit wasn't great, it doesn't mean they didn't want to discuss the perceived issue nonetheless, so maybe they decided to try again here.

@DarrenG doesn't seem to have created the account for the purposes of trolling this forum either, because they have been lurking on the forums since last year. I would like to see them come weigh in on the discussion though.

[Adran]

12 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Well... this post came from an account with only 1 post... this one, and he never bothered to reply to any of the opinions given here... so it's not impossible that it come from some group trying to be insidious... or maybe he got scared of the 16  (at the time of writting) and run away XDD.

It was only posted 9 hours ago. There are many people that don't check things all the time.

My view is to give the benefit of the doubt where possible. The original poster asked if other people were bothered by the things that bothered them. The majority of the people here have said they aren't bothered (At least thats how I read the disagree on their post, if you ask if people disagree with you, they can answer without having to write their opinions. ).

In many ways its not too surprising that the outcome is this. The audience of the thread is going to largely be people that aren't bothered by any cultural appropriation that malifaux might have since they are still here playing the game (or people that don't think Malifaux has cultural appropriation).

I would like Darren G to return and comment, because its not really a discussion otherwise.

[Thedeadclaw]

2 hours ago, Champignon said:

really like you post but what is wrong with him?

I've heard a lot of people talk about it and nauseum but the tl;dr is his model is apparently based on a highly recognizable but also very racial charicature sculpture of North American first nation people but also... It's one model from a long time ago and Wyrd's actively becoming better and better. Again, out of all the games where racist characaturing is an ACTUAL issue Malifaux isn't really one.

[TheJoyInGaming]

20 minutes ago, Thedeadclaw said:

I've heard a lot of people talk about it and nauseum but the tl;dr is his model is apparently based on a highly recognizable but also very racial charicature sculpture of North American first nation people but also... It's one model from a long time ago and Wyrd's actively becoming better and better. Again, out of all the games where racist characaturing is an ACTUAL issue Malifaux isn't really one.

Is Big Jake really an issue though? I attended a ceremony with Native Americans* several years ago and the only reason Big Jake would have looked out of place there is because he has a "rad bod". It is odd to consider him a caricature when I know people who un-ironically dress the same as him, and do so with pride (AFAIK). 

*Not sure on the proper name and it may have been multiple.

[Yew Arcane]

Okay, I am someone who has studied Asian culture (my minor is in Asian Studies) and I am going to give my two cents here. 

There are points that edge on cultural appropriation (specifically with Asian exoticism), but those all seem to be commentary on stereotypes or references to other sources of media (sometimes even both). There are also a few things that are incorrect, likely based on misunderstandings, specifically Qi should be pronounced chee not key, but I can chalk that up to alternate history elements.

The rest (which are largely outside my area of knowledge and scholarship) seem to be hinging on penny dreadful representations, and are thus more of a critique of the stereotypes that would have been represented there.

[TheJoyInGaming]

19 minutes ago, Yew Arcane said:

There are points that edge on cultural appropriation (specifically with Asian exoticism), but those all seem to be commentary on stereotypes or references to other sources of media (sometimes even both). 

Can you elaborate? What are some examples and why are they edging on cultural appropriation?

If you do view them that way, how would you recommend Wyrd go about representing so many vastly different cultures through minis? In other words, how do they convey a culture through a model without edging this line whilst also not requiring someone to minor in Asian studies, or visit the forums for an explanation, to tell the difference? 

I do wish to understand where these views come from, but I honestly find it hard not to dismiss them outright when I see them.

Edited September 23, 2019 by TheJoyInGaming

[Ogid]

56 minutes ago, Adran said:

It was only posted 9 hours ago. There are many people that don't check things all the time.

My view is to give the benefit of the doubt where possible. The original poster asked if other people were bothered by the things that bothered them. The majority of the people here have said they aren't bothered (At least thats how I read the disagree on their post, if you ask if people disagree with you, they can answer without having to write their opinions. ).

Don't get my wrong, I was only saying that the above hypothesis could be possible; I'd also like to know if he changed his mind after the replies.

However it's a bit strange dropping a controversial topic like this one and dissapear... I'd had expected 1 or 2 replies before going to do irl stuff... but it's true it's too early to know.

[Yew Arcane]

1 minute ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

Can you elaborate? What are some examples and why are they edging on cultural appropriation?

If you do view them that way, how would you recommend Wyrd go about representing so many vastly different cultures through minis? In other words, how do they convey a culture through a model without edging this line whilst also not requiring someone to minor in Asian studies, or visit the forums for an explanation, to tell the difference? 

Any time you utilize stereotypes of marginalized groups you start pushing that line. It's a tightrope for sure. There is no easy answer, you just gotta be careful and if someone calls you out, you need to address it. There are other forms of cultural appropriation, but that's not really something that this market in particular really has to worry about.

[Thedeadclaw]

52 minutes ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

Is Big Jake really an issue though?

Well, several people have independently brought it up to me, so yes, I'd say yes. Just because I don't personally have any skin in the game on it doesn't mean I should ignore give completely isolated instances across both Malifaux and TTB. But again, it's one model, which is much better than many mini games.

[CD1248]

2 minutes ago, Yew Arcane said:

Any time you utilize stereotypes of marginalized groups you start pushing that line. It's a tightrope for sure. There is no easy answer, you just gotta be careful and if someone calls you out, you need to address it. There are other forms of cultural appropriation, but that's not really something that this market in particular really has to worry about.

Cultural appropriation is a nonsense concept.

What you're actually talking about is the use of archetypes to represent a thing in fiction. If you want to represent pre-modern Chinese culture in a work about a lot of different things you do not have time to re-write Romance of the Three Kingdoms to ensure accuracy, so you grab a known archetype, put whatever your unique spin on it is, and now everyone is on the same page.

If you aren't allowed to do that, then alt-history fiction just isn't allowed as a genre.

[Yew Arcane]

2 minutes ago, CD1248 said:

Cultural appropriation is a nonsense concept.

What you're actually talking about is the use of archetypes to represent a thing in fiction. If you want to represent pre-modern Chinese culture in a work about a lot of different things you do not have time to re-write Romance of the Three Kingdoms to ensure accuracy, so you grab a known archetype, put whatever your unique spin on it is, and now everyone is on the same page.

If you aren't allowed to do that, then alt-history fiction just isn't allowed as a genre.

It's actually not. There are a lot of problems when dealing with other cultures and power dynamics. It's not about not being allowed to do it, it's about being sensitive that there are issues when you use stereotypes. Wyrd is actually really good about this, and I respect them a lot for it. Notice that I used the term Stereotype and you brought out archetypes which are vastly different things, and suggests that you may not be coming into the conversation on good faith (Meaning you don't have any desire to actually have the discussion and just want to discredit all arguments fallaciously based on your own biases).

[TheJoyInGaming]

13 minutes ago, Thedeadclaw said:

Well, several people have independently brought it up to me, so yes, I'd say yes. Just because I don't personally have any skin in the game on it doesn't mean I should ignore give completely isolated instances across both Malifaux and TTB. But again, it's one model, which is much better than many mini games.

The different experiences of the people illustrate what I mean well. I know people that would not be offended in the slightest by Big Jake (almost used his initials there...) and these are people that look like him, except for the fact that they have a dad-bod. You know people that are uncomfortable with how he looks, which is just as valid. Why is this a case of cultural appropriation rather than a case of divergent opinions about a more easily communicable sculpt for a Native American model? 

On another note, do you view Joss as better example of a Native American model? 

Edited September 23, 2019 by TheJoyInGaming

[Yew Arcane]

2 minutes ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

The different experiences of the people illustrate what I mean well. I know people that would not be offended in the slightest by Big Jake (almost used his initials there...) and these are people that look like, except for that they have a dad-bod. You know people that are uncomfortable with how he looks. Why is this a case of cultural appropriation rather than a case of divergent opinions about a more easily communicable sculpt for a Native American model? 

On another note, do you view Joss as better example of a Native American model? 

Big Jake definitely tows that line, I could ask a few of my friends who would be able to chime in more on this.

 

As for Joss, let's just put it that there's a reason his name is Joss and not what it used to be.

[TheJoyInGaming]

1 minute ago, Yew Arcane said:

Big Jake definitely tows that line, I could ask a few of my friends who would be able to chime in more on this.

 

As for Joss, let's just put it that there's a reason his name is Joss and not what it used to be.

Wow... I did not know that his name changed. I just looked that up...

Thank you @Myyrä @Yew Arcane and @Thedeadclaw for your responses. Your posts have helped me to gain some understanding of where people with these concerns are coming from. 

[ShinChan]

3 hours ago, Necrokamo said:

Uhmmm, Was this not a deleted post from another forum for subjectively inducing censorship and hate issues?

From Reddit at least

[Necrokamo]

Yes @ShinChan, and to see if mentioning the name of Alec Holowka the creator of the publication is encouraged to respond (a very murky case indeed).

[Hagisman]

I'm glad Queeg has lost the "Master" title to his name. Originally "Master Queeg", he carries a whip. 

For those who don't know who Queeg is a reference to check out the Caine Mutiny:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Caine_Mutiny

If he was just Queeg it would have been fine. But calling him Master really crossed the line. Additionally having a Henchman model called "Master' is kind of confusing.

[Champignon]

45 minutes ago, Hagisman said:

I'm glad Queeg has lost the "Master" title to his name. Originally "Master Queeg", he carries a whip. 

For those who don't know who Queeg is a reference to check out the Caine Mutiny:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Caine_Mutiny

If he was just Queeg it would have been fine. But calling him Master really crossed the line. Additionally having a Henchman model called "Master' is kind of confusing.

why not? it's a direct reference to a book
or you consider that book was too match?

[Daniel Walker]

50 minutes ago, Hagisman said:

I'm glad Queeg has lost the "Master" title to his name. Originally "Master Queeg", he carries a whip. 

For those who don't know who Queeg is a reference to check out the Caine Mutiny:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Caine_Mutiny

If he was just Queeg it would have been fine. But calling him Master really crossed the line. Additionally having a Henchman model called "Master' is kind of confusing.

Whats wrong with Master reference? 

[Myyrä]

17 minutes ago, Daniel Walker said:

Whats wrong with Master reference? 

I'm guessing the fact that it can refer to slave owners.