New player - does the cultural appropriation bother anyone else?

[DarrenG]

Hey all.

I'm fairly new to Malifaux. It used to be rather big around our area but died off quite a bit until 3rd ed. Now it's having a bit of a revival and I was wanting to jump onboard. I picked out a faction, outcasts, and have got a few models.

I was just wondering if anybody else was kinda put off by the way that 'Eastern'-themed models are depicted in the game? It does seem that a rather large number of pretty much any faction, especially the Ten Thunders but also Ressurrectionists and Arcanists, seem to have a LOT of fetishised exoticism with how it approaches characters from other cultures.

It's not so much that it's not thematically appropriate and so on, and most of the models are tasteful (with a few exceptions), but a lot of it does border on or push across the line of appropriating other cultures for use in a game. I won't lie, when I look at models like Wong I kinda do feel quite a lot of discomfort.

I'm definitely not looking to start an argument or cause a flame war here or anything, but I'm curious if I'm the only person who feels this way and, if not, how you deal with this in your games? Do you just, like, turn a blind eye to it?

[Scoffer]

1 hour ago, DarrenG said:

I'm definitely not looking to start an argument or cause a flame war here or anything, but I'm curious if I'm the only person who feels this way and, if not, how you deal with this in your games? Do you just, like, turn a blind eye to it?

I'm Russian and for a long time the only russian-themed model in the game was a half-mad cannibal lady in a stereotypical russian hat. Do I have to be offended? Is Boris-the-dancing-bear (a very russian-themed model too) cultural appropriation? 

[Champignon]

i'm a chinese living in Russia. Please tell me about the cultural appropriation.

it's quite okay to laugh on racial\cultural stereotypes, it's pretty normal

some people just looking for things that will offend'em.

[CD1248]

4 minutes ago, Scoffer said:

I'm Russian and for a long time the only russian-themed model in the game was a half-mad cannibal lady in a stereotypical russian hat. Do I have to be offended? Is Boris-the-dancing-bear (a very russian-themed model too) cultural appropriation? 

Don't worry because, I, being a non-Russian, am offended on your behalf and will now defend your Russian honor by complaining loudly about Rasputina!

Fear not Russian brother, I will stick up for your hypothetical hurt feelings whether you want me to or not!

[Cromwell]

I am russian jew. Are you sure you want me to complain?

[Champignon]

Also 

can i ask for a russian empire fraction in the other side?
it will really please my russian offended feelings

[Tattler]

10 minutes ago, Champignon said:

Also 

can i ask for a russian empire fraction in the other side?
it will really please my russian offended feelings

I second this. The whole Russian Other Side community is waiting for Undead Tzar allegiance!

Natasha, go fuel my reactor.

[AndreyF]

I wonder if we shall do something about culturally appropriating arabic numbers? Is it appropriate to use them in Malifaux? Also, shall we consider this case as inappropriate in relation of arabs or hindu, as they are were earlier adopters of those numbers?

[Champignon]

5 minutes ago, AndreyF said:

I wonder if we shall do something about culturally appropriating arabic numbers? Is it appropriate to use them in Malifaux? Also, shall we consider this case as inappropriate in relation of arabs or hindu, as they are were earlier adopters of those numbers?

all europeans should go back to roman numerals
others should stop using numbers at all

suppose it's the only fair decision 

[Adran]

Malifaux has a wide range of models, and draws from a lot of stereotype and inspiration for ideas. Wong, is based on a character from "Big trouble in little china" (as are Bert Jebson and Gracie) for example. I don't know if stereotyping a stereotype makes it any better but that's what we've got here.

I'm personally not offended by the Wyrd stereotyping, because it is so wide and varied. As a general rule I feel that there is balanced descriptions of many of the cultural issues, and I don't see any as too far. I can see why you might see Wong as an extreme view of an Asian stereotype, but if you look at him compared to other models in the faction (and consider the story around him), I don' think it is too out of placed as the bayou faction is full of Extreme parody stereotypes. The whole redneck hillbilly vibe that Sommer and the bayou gremlins put out is at least as extreme.

There is certainly a distinct difference between Japanese, Chinese, Korean and Indian influences in the game, even though they are put into the same faction in general.

I also started playing before Ten thunders was a faction, so there was (argueably) only 1 Asian influenced character in the game. I'm sure there where people that disliked that level of representation.

So overall I don't feel that Wyrd is going overboard in certain stereotypes. I think they have a wide range of different styles of characters that meet the "eastern theme" and so haven't pigeon holed them too much. (Granted most of the ones that have profiles in the game are part of a crime syndicate, but that's largely true of all factions not having standard members of the public having profiles. The stories certainly have 3 kingdom characters that are just getting along in Malifaux)

 

46 minutes ago, Scoffer said:

I'm Russian and for a long time the only russian-themed model in the game was a half-mad cannibal lady in a stereotypical russian hat. Do I have to be offended? Is Boris-the-dancing-bear (a very russian-themed model too) cultural appropriation? 

Lots of people have said that Zoriada has Baba Yaga theme.  That sounds pretty Russian themed model to me.

[Scoffer]

3 minutes ago, Adran said:

Lots of people have said that Zoriada has Baba Yaga theme.  That sounds pretty Russian themed model to me.

From now on I'll consider every call to nerf Zoraida as anti-russian agression!

[AndreyF]

I also wonder if any greek players are offended about how marriage between Ulisses and Penelope ended up in Malifaux?

[Champignon]

35 minutes ago, Adran said:

Lots of people have said that Zoriada has Baba Yaga theme.  That sounds pretty Russian themed model to me.

Dear Adran

we've find out that there a lot of slavic players in the forum from different countries and cities
can we have some subsection on the forum  or smthing like that to cooperate with each other
please?

sincerely,
Яропылкшъ

[Adran]

13 minutes ago, Champignon said:

Dear Adran

we've find out that there a lot of slavic players in the forum from different countries and cities
can we have some subsection on the forum  or smthing like that to cooperate with each other
please?

sincerely,
Яропылкшъ

That's not something I have any power over.

I think there is a club section of the forums that might be what you want, but I've never used it, so I don't know.

[Caedrus]

As an Australian, I'm offended by the lack of Australian Culture representation 😡.

Wait, Australian Culture is an oxymoron.

I'd like an entire faction dedicated to belligerent, aggressive, unwashed alcoholics with a bizarre fixation on alligators/crocodiles*. We could paint 'em in the Australian scheme: Green and a bit of gold.

 

* Why is there no Gremlin Steve Irwin? That's a Nightmare model that would sell like crazy...

[Myyrä]

1 minute ago, Caedrus said:

As an Australian, I'm offended by the lack of Australian Culture representation 😡.

Wait, Australian Culture is an oxymoron.

I'd like an entire faction dedicated to belligerent, aggressive, unwashed alcoholics with a bizarre fixation on alligators/crocodiles*. We could paint 'em in the Australian scheme: Green and a bit of gold.

 

* Why is there no Gremlin Steve Irwin? That's a Nightmare model that would sell like crazy...

From that description it sounds like there already is an Australian faction.

[Rathnard]

For what it's worth, there is *one* confirmed Australian in the lore - Samantha Thrace. 

McTavish could also potentially have Australian origins, though he's just as likely to be Cajun (is that the word??)

Being Gremlins, Georgy and Olaf are definitely not Australian. But they've certainly appropriated at least two Australian cultural icons.

 

Going back to the original topic, i feel like Wyrd has done a pretty good job of avoiding negative stereotypes or cultural appropriation that might be considered problematic. Wong is probably the closest I've noticed to a negative stereotype, but like Adran said, he's based on a character in a movie. So that makes it...okay? I guess? This is certainly the first time I've heard anyone complain about him. 

In any case, Wong will likely be a moot point pretty soon - given the new art and his need for a new crew box (What with Mancha joining Zipp like the spineless traitor he is ), i suspect Wong will be getting a revised sculpt sooner rather than later.

[Ogid]

I'm from Spain... the only spanish characters in this game afaik are Domadores de Cadaveres, which are a very weird mixture between our bullfighters and flamenco dancers with some folklore from the Mexican's Dia de muertos... and I laught at it loud when I found out. There are a lot of stereotypes in this game, but nothing offensive imo.

For us there are much worse examples: In Mission: Impossible 2 they mix the Passion week and Fallas fiesta (an advice, don't go to Sevilla and tell to the Broderhood of the sacred heart of Jesus that you want to burn his image ("paso"), they will beat the crap out of you XDD); in Knight and Day they allocate San Fermin in Sevilla (I wonder if wikipedia doesn't work in Hollywood). In one chapter of criminal minds there are spanish carnivorous bulls (I'm speechless...). Or in Resident Evil 4 that Spanish location and accent are so out of spot that is comical... after considering all of that I think Wyrd made a great work picturing with us spaniards XDDD

[Myyrä]

Because I find Australia's situation in Malifaux universe quite interesting, I will go back off topic for a bit.

It is not entirely clear there is anything nation like in Australia in Earthside. In the real world, Australia was mostly colonized in 1800s. In Earthside 1800s was mostly dominated by black powder wars, as nations were fighting over the control of soulstones after the Breach closed the first time. At the very least it might host a population that's very different from our world's, and it might even remain largely unclaimed, because the British Empire's/Guild's efforts have been directed elsewhere, first in establishing control over the entire world and then claiming Malifaux once the Breach reopened.

What purpose would Australia even serve when you have a more profitable prison colony where the local fauna is even more likely to kill you?

[gertermit]

36 minutes ago, Caedrus said:

As an Australian, I'm offended by the lack of Australian Culture representation 😡.

wait, I was sure the whole neverborn faction was about Australian fauna

[Maniacal_cackle]

More than the issue of cultural appropriation, I'm bothered by some of the cultural stereotypes. Everything about the Gremlins becoming Bayou and the associated stereotypes seems pretty shit to me.

But then, most games are pretty shit about this stuff, so I'm not going to quit the game over it. But I couldn't fault someone who did.

[Adran]

2 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

 Everything about the Gremlins becoming Bayou and the associated stereotypes seems pretty shit to me.

I can understand not liking the gremlin stereotypes, but I can't see what the issue with the Faction re-naming is. Its certainly made some of the rules clearer, and the Bayou and the Gremlins were already linked.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, Adran said:

I can understand not liking the gremlin stereotypes, but I can't see what the issue with the Faction re-naming is. Its certainly made some of the rules clearer, and the Bayou and the Gremlins were already linked.

Ah, did Bayou exist before?

Basically Bayou in any game is just code for 'lots of stereotypes about the American South.' And the American South is rife with a history of slavery and racial abuse. Grabbing stereotypes from the Bayou as inspiration has a lot of issues.

So my problem is just its existence in the game.

[Maniacal_cackle]

(Ironically I also really like a lot of the Bayou models/think they're hilarious. If they were just 'gremlins' and had some of the inspiration a bit more removed from the American South, I'd have considered it as a main faction).

[Caedrus]

Hi All,

Hmm, I may have been sliiiightly too subtle in my attempt at humour. To be clear: I wasn't offended!

Certainly, the Gremlins take much of their background from the Deliverance-esque hillbilly stereotype. I think you could certainly make an Australian Gremlin cohort, though! If McTavish couldn't be converted into a convincing Steve Irwin, I'd be surprised, as @Rathnard suggests.

After reading @gertermit's post, I have to agree. The Mysterious Emissary could definitely be Australian 😂.

@Myyrä: If I had to give a semi-serious response, in such an alternate history, I'd say that whoever first recognised Australia's natural resources would colonise it, quick-smart. Perhaps the Dutch?

Finally, to follow on from Rathnard, my very subjective opinion is that Wyrd has represented a vast range of cultures, and educated me about some mythology that I wasn't aware of. I think that they are moving / have moved into a more culturally aware and safe place. l I think that it's important to recognise that many of their oldest characters are derived from an amalgam of the fictional and the (non-fictional) folklorish (Seamus, to me, is a Mad Hatter / Sweeney Todd / Jack the Ripper amalgam).

Finally, and this is just one player's opinion: They're miniatures, that are fun to paint and play with. I love their individuality. I like the obtuse references.

If I was offended by any miniature, based on any aspect of their appearance, name, cultural background or reference (and I am not), then I wouldn't buy it, or I'd proxy it, or I'd attack it with Green Stuff ☺️.

I'm off to look up Samantha Thrace. I don't know that bit of lore!

Caedrus, over and out.