Walking Dead and Revenant.

[Fluffaluffacus]

Walking Dead: When declaring or resolving friendly Actions or Abilities, this model may count as a Corpse Marker. If the Corpse Marker would be removed, this model is killed and does not Drop a Corpse Marker.

Cremation: Target a Corpse Marker. Drop a 50mm Hazardous (Burning +1) Pyre Marker in base contact with the target, then remove the target.

Funeral Pyre: After this model kills another model, it may Drop a 50mm, Hazardous (Burning +1) Pyre Marker in base contact with the killed model.

How do these 3 abilities work together?

You target a zombie or candle with cremation, make the pyre marker and remove the target. Would you then get a second pyre due to Funeral Pyre since it removed the zombie/candle and therefor killed it? OR does the Walking Dead ability kill the model and therefor Funeral Pyre doesn't happen?

[KingJocko]

These rules do create a bit of a grey area, but I'm going to lean towards Walking Dead does the killing and not the model using Cremation. This is because Walking Dead specifies the killing aspect of this interaction while Cremation doesn't and on page 61 of the rule book, 3rd paragraph of the Killed section, "Killed models are always considered to be killed by the model that generated the Action or Ability that killed them". One could make a chicken or the egg argument that Walking Dead wouldn't have killed the model if it wasn't for Cremation being the source of the chain of events, but independent of one another Cremation doesn't kill other models while similar actions (i.e. target corpse marker, remove corpse marker) will cause the MZ/Candle to die every time from Walking Dead, so Walking Dead should be attributed the kill.

[PirateCaptain]

I'm not so convinced that is how the interaction would work.  I don't think walking dead kills the model.   Walking Dead says that if it was removed, it is killed.  I don't think Walking Dead does the "killing, I believe Walking Dead causes the action that would remove it to kill instead.  I think this needs an official ruling to avoid any confusion at events in the future.

[newsun]

Looks like two pyres to me.

[Maniacal_cackle]

This is better suited to the rules forum, but...

The rules on 'what does the killing/where does something come from' are ambiguous. My personal standard I apply is wherever the rules text is located is what is doing the killing.

The rules text on cremation says to remove the target. Walking dead clarifies that this counts as killing. So I'd say that cremation killed the target. "if this model would be removed it is killed" suggests to me it is killed by the removal effect in cremation.

Thus, two markers. But it's ambiguous, play it however your playgroup agrees.

[Harlekin]

On 9/22/2019 at 12:37 AM, Maniacal_cackle said:

The rules text on cremation says to remove the target. Walking dead clarifies that this counts as killing. So I'd say that cremation killed the target. "if this model would be removed it is killed" suggests to me it is killed by the removal effect in cremation.

Hooray, even better. 

As a side note, I created "multiple" Markers by just killing the Candles with an attack. You will get a Pyre anyways, plus an extra Corpse (with no "instead of" on the card). 

[Adran]

Before you get too excited there are probably more people that think it's walking death that counts as killing the model. My argument is that cremation does not deal damage or kill as part of its text. It's the walking dead ability that tell you the model is killed. 

[PirateCaptain]

On 9/21/2019 at 6:37 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

This is better suited to the rules forum, but...

The rules on 'what does the killing/where does something come from' are ambiguous. My personal standard I apply is wherever the rules text is located is what is doing the killing.

The rules text on cremation says to remove the target. Walking dead clarifies that this counts as killing. So I'd say that cremation killed the target. "if this model would be removed it is killed" suggests to me it is killed by the removal effect in cremation.

Thus, two markers. But it's ambiguous, play it however your playgroup agrees.

If Cremation is what kills a corpse candle, then you'd actually get 3 from that action. 1 from cremation, 1 from the candles Demise, and 1 from the Draugr's Funeral Pyre.

[newsun]

6 hours ago, Adran said:

Before you get too excited there are probably more people that think it's walking death that counts as killing the model. My argument is that cremation does not deal damage or kill as part of its text. It's the walking dead ability that tell you the model is killed. 

It's really not relevant the number of people arguing one side or the other as this is not decided by vote. It could be ruled both ways or this discussion would not be going along with the thread in the rules sub forum. I brought up my post regarding obey there as the originating action controller may or may not get credit for the kill based on this decision and it's further reaching than just more pyre markers.

[Locoplaya]

Hi guys, I'm also interested in knowing how this skill works. Reading the rule book, I have come to the conclusion that you put 3 pyre markers (1 for "Cremation", 1 for "Funeral pyre" and 1 for the death of corpse candle). why? Because it is the "Cremation" ability that triggers death, not walking dead ... otherwise it would count as if the corpse candle would kill itself ... and I think that is not possible. I'm sorry for my English, I hope I explained myself well.

[marke83]

1 pyre marker. Walking Dead kills the model. Cremation just "triggers" the effect (=removing the marker) that "allows" Walking Dead to kill the model.

[Locoplaya]

hmmm... are you sure? well... then it could be 2 pyre markers cause demise skill corpse candle

[solkan]

2 hours ago, Locoplaya said:

hmmm... are you sure? well... then it could be 2 pyre markers cause demise skill corpse candle

You mean "the Demise (Smouldering Heart) ability is triggered by the model being killed", right?

If you use Cremation, and target a Corpse Candle as the Corpse Marker, then the end result will be two Pyre Markers:  The one specified in the action, and the one specified in the demise ability.  You don't get the third (from Funeral Pyre) because the Corpse Candle's ability killed the Corpse Candle, not the action.

The point being that "this model is killed" are instructions to kill the model.  The Execute trigger says "If it does neither, it is killed, ignoring Demise Abilities," and you're going to expect that anyone using that trigger is getting credit for the kill, right?

 

[Locoplaya]

Ok, just 2 pyre markers then. Corpse candle Demise ability + Cremation. Thank you, guys ^^

[TheJoyInGaming]

I will say that I played Reva during the Open Beta and when I used Cremation I would Drop 3 Pyres as my understanding at the time was that Walking Dead caused Cremation to kill the Corpse Candle as opposed to Walking Dead killing the Corpse Candle itself. It seems like this is the intent. If it is not, why would you ever use the Action if you could just use a regular attack to kill a Candle to trigger Funeral Pyre and still get 2 Pyres?

[Adran]

12 minutes ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

I will say that I played Reva during the Open Beta and when I used Cremation I would Drop 3 Pyres as my understanding at the time was that Walking Dead caused Cremation to kill the Corpse Candle as opposed to Walking Dead killing the Corpse Candle itself. It seems like this is the intent. If it is not, why would you ever use the Action if you could just use a regular attack to kill a Candle to trigger Funeral Pyre and still get 2 Pyres?

You are talking about an interaction of an action and 3 different abilities, all of which exist on multiple models. Its very hard to claim anything about the intent because I don't think this set up was the intent of any of the 4 things.

If what you want to do is just create pyre markers from corpse candles, then yes, using cremation is no better than using an attack action (as long as you have minimum damage 2), but Cremation can be used on any corpse counter, not just walking dead models. (And  Vincent has a trigger on his cremation which is good)

[Ogid]

This question was also asked in the rules forum:

 

[KingJocko]

Cremation can also be used while engaged unlike  actions or if you're engaging an important enemy and you don't want to leave engagement to go bash your Corpse Candle in the head. In addition Vincent has a trigger on his action. The downside of Cremation vs attacks is the existence of a TN.

[TheJoyInGaming]

2 hours ago, KingJocko said:

Cremation can also be used while engaged unlike  actions or if you're engaging an important enemy and you don't want to leave engagement to go bash your Corpse Candle in the head. In addition Vincent has a trigger on his action. The downside of Cremation vs attacks is the existence of a TN.

Vince’s Crossbow has greater range than Cremation, no TN, a circumstantial built-in push for other Pyres, Rapid Fire, and can be triggered off of his Staggering Punch.

Cremation having no gun symbol is the only point in its favor besides the ability to target normal Corpse Markers.

3 hours ago, Adran said:

You are talking about an interaction of an action and 3 different abilities, all of which exist on multiple models. Its very hard to claim anything about the intent because I don't think this set up was the intent of any of the 4 things.

I can infer intent.
 

In the Open Beta, Reva at one point could discard a card to summon a Candle anywhere in range. It became a topic of discussion about whether or not this was healthy as Killer Instinct could give a model with Funeral Pyre the ability Loot Their Corpses. This allowed the crew to kill a Candle, gain a Stone, generate 2 Pyres, and heal all models in range with the Final Veil ability, all at the low cost of ending their Activation near a Candle. Reva’s summon was then changed to the current version.
 

I find it odd that nowhere in these discussions did Wyrd correct the mistake of many a player that used Cremation to generate 3 Pyres (or Blasphemous Ritual to generate 2 etc) and instead gave Reva more of a cost to use her ability. All of this leads me to believe that the Walking Dead is intended to modify the Action/Ability so that the Action/Ability kills the Candle.

Is this clearcut? Absolutely not. I cannot prove the intent behind the crew’s design. I also cannot prove that the change behind Reva’s summoning somehow means that  I played Walking Dead correctly during the Beta or that it was the catalyst for that change. It is curious though. All this being said, I would encourage anyone with this question to discuss the matter with their opponent prior to any games to avoid any rules conflicts that may come up.
 

Btw the two models with Cremation in Reva’s Keyword, Vincent and the Draugr, both have min 2 attacks to kill Candles so the damage isn’t an issue. The Draugr is also lacking that “good” trigger Vincent has on Cremation, and can charge the Candle for multiple benefits. It will gain a push from the charge, and can Drop the Pyre underneath itself to gain Burning which sets up both Spirits in the Flames and Blaze of Glory. It can then charge again with Frenzied Charge.

Edited October 16, 2019 by TheJoyInGaming

[Locoplaya]

I thought he got 3 counters because "Cremation" says "removes" and the "Walking Dead" ability says that if he were to be removed, he is killed. Hence I think it is the "Cremation" action that really kills the model and not the "Walking Dead" ability.

[solkan]

18 minutes ago, Locoplaya said:

I thought he got 3 counters because "Cremation" says "removes" and the "Walking Dead" ability says that if he were to be removed, he is killed. Hence I think it is the "Cremation" action that really kills the model and not the "Walking Dead" ability.

That's not what the rules say, unfortunately.  The rules say

Quote

Killed models are always considered to be killed by the model that generated the Action or Ability that killed them (as well as by that model’s Crew). If a model is killed by another effect (such as a Condition or Hazardous Terrain), it is not considered to have been killed by any player, model, or Crew.

The ever popular Execute trigger says:

Quote

The target may either discard a card or a Soulstone.  If it does neither, it is killed, ignoring Demise Abilities.

Compare that to Walking Dead:

Quote

If the Corpse Marker would be removed, this model is killed and does not Drop a Corpse Marker.

If Walking Dead added a few words, like "If the Corpse Marker would be removed, this model is killed by that effect and does not Drop a Corpse Marker" or something similar, then it would work how you expected it.  In its current form, however, Walking Dead is killing the model just like the Execute Trigger is.

Disclaimer:  In 2nd edition, all of the abilities like Walking Dead said "sacrifice" instead and did not set off anyone's "killed" effects.  They switched from "sacrifice" to having the model's own ability kill it and specify no marker dropping.