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Underdogs & Overcosted stuff


yool1981
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Dear All,

Please find below stuff from Wave 1 & 2 I never got working. Please kindly share your experience if you have tried these models (successfully or not) in a competitive environment.

  • Tannen - So I tried Tannen on Saturday night, again... Every time I make a list with him I am sure I have found a way to make him work. Every time I fail, he dies turn 2. His defensive mechanisms are just really crappy, especially if you want to use his Chatty bubble. And he is 6SS...
  • Black blood shaman - I may be wrong but I have the feeling they are overcosted by 2SS imho.
  • Wicked doll - Never felt the need nor the use for them.

Other stuff that works but does not seem worth its points:

  • Candy - She and her upgrade are very pricey. With the Captain treatment, I feel she would be a very strong choice but as of now, I find her lackluster (but I don't play Pandora much).
  • Young Nephilims - They work OKish but they are too slow and they tend to not be worth their points, especially when competiting vs other minions in the 5-7SS range.
  • Mature Nephilims - Every time I favour Nekima for pure damage or I go down to Grave for additional utility. Now that the Rider is at the same price, I fear for the Mature.
  • Barbaros. He works, I like him and challenge is great but his damage track is too poor for a 10SS model. Nimble & Critical strike (or straight +1 damage on the Min damage) would help or Swift & the same damage track would maybe make him fully worth his points.
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I have to disagree about Tannen and Barbaros. Both have really strong synergy with Pandora. Especially when playing “woe is me” Pandora. Mr. Tannen’s “cooler” aura is an amazing for card drain. Emissary with Pandora’s conflix can copy this aura for a greater use. Also Tannen has good cast against wp, which also applies a condition. Another thing is his “chatty” ability. This one can be really helpful in gg18 reality. He just need a pretty careful management. “Challenge “ of Barbaros is tough here as well. More wp duel that can save your other models. Actually both Tannen and Barbaros can be a good combo.

Another place for Barbaros can be Titania crew. “Challenge “ and “behold my glory “ are great combo. Also pushes from his attacks can provoke more “pounce” attacks from Rougarou/Kade/Lelu/Changelings. I think Barbaros is more tank model than hitter.

 So imo the ss cost of these two guys is fine, if you find a right use for them.

 

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I've had lots of success with Tannen in tournament games actually. Disclaimer: haven't played any super big tournaments with the a-level players.

I often run him in my darked Lucius crew. Play him really cautious turn 1 and send illuminated and Graves at the enemy so they feel pressure to deal with them turn two if they win initiative. Use Lucius and the scribe to put red tape on their main threat and he'll last a little longer. I usually don't put up the chatty aura early in the turn until turn 3  or 4 when I've dealt with a few of their main threats and they need to get schemes done. In tge eqrly turns people usually start activations with their beater. Between all the positives Lucius gives out and the opponwnt needing to discard to cheat I usually land a lot of hits. 

I've also used him with Barbaros, their two auras combine nicely. I'm pretty sure some highly rated players actually consider Barbaros well worth his stones, the challe ge aura in conjunction with cooler screws greatly wirh people and helps keep Tannen safe. I often tank with Barbaros when I play Lilith. People get pretty miffed when they can't do much qithout those wpchecks to target Barbaros despite him not being a legal target.

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Tannen - I used him in Pandora's crew, he helped me score points but more importantly - he denied gaining points by the opponent (We played Ply for Information). In Pandora's crew he's far more survivable, having access to up to 3 (usually 2) Martyr auras. Theoryfaux, but our masters with Obey-like effects can turn his Chatty on outside his activation.

Wicked Doll - Played it once or twice with Dreamer to give Empty Night'ed Teddy :+fate to Attack Flips. Wasn't worth it. Let's just face it: it's a 4 ss Minion that is not worth 3 ss; it's a summon that's not worth summoner's AP (and it can be summoned by non-master models!), not to mention a card from the hand.

50 minutes ago, HydroMog said:

wicked dolls are awesome when you target something like collodi or lilitu and lelu with all sewed up or if you are playing summoning pandy.

I see some potential with Collodi, i'm sceptical about the twins, though. Summoning Dora can hire Field Reporters - they provide her with a cheap source of conditions, too and are far better models. And they cost 4 ss, too.

Candy - her personal upgrade is far from neccessary. Similarily to HydroMag, I used her with great success in Dora's crews back in 2016. I used her as summon healer in Dreamer's lists  with mixed success, but I'm a bad Dreamer player. Unfortunately, it's a model that needs much support from the rest of the crew to work right. With FFM on suit gone, I hope to play with the model again.

Mature Nephilim - Pure theoryfaux, again, but it should shine in Royal Titania's crew. With access to the Fae Squeal, extra armor and heals both from Titania and Emissary, he can be quite survivable. He offers some pushes and the very best Ml attack Changelings (summoned by the Emissary) can copy - :+fate to attack flips and min dmg 4. Please do note that you can't substitute Mature with other melee beaters in that crew.

Barbaros - it's not a beater, it's a control piece. Never played with him 'cause I don't have the miniature, but I've heard he's good with Pandora and Titania. The key is his Challenge.

 

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Hum it seems Tannen is good with Pandora who provides extra survavability.

I played him with Lilith, Lynch & Titania so far (in conjunction with Barbaros actually). Every time the player read the card he killed the model (wasting valuable AP from masters to set it done as I put Tannen a bit behind obviously). In Ply for Info, I don't see how he can make himself useful without instantly dying from sharp shooters (he loses manipulative if he activates early  and has thus no defense).

23 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

I've also used him with Barbaros, their two auras combine nicely. I'm pretty sure some highly rated players actually consider Barbaros well worth his stones, the challe ge aura in conjunction with cooler screws greatly wirh people and helps keep Tannen safe. I often tank with Barbaros when I play Lilith. People get pretty miffed when they can't do much qithout those wpchecks to target Barbaros despite him not being a legal target.

 

12 minutes ago, Pikciwok said:

Barbaros - it's not a beater, it's a control piece. Never played with him 'cause I don't have the miniature, but I've heard he's good with Pandora and Titania. The key is his Challenge.

Is Barbaros worth 10SS to you though?

I have played Barbaros with Lilith, Titania and Pandora so far. I like the model rules and how he combines with Fears Given Form for max annoyance, I like the fluff and I love the alt mini but he does not feel like a 10SS henchman to me.

As an opponent, once you realize his damage track is crappy and he is not that survivable, either you use him to burn your opponent's cards & SS and/or you use him for your own schemes & strats (ply for information, public demo, set-up...).

I always feel like I'm paying some extra cost for him as I have to bring a beater to complement his control job.

20 minutes ago, Pikciwok said:

Mature Nephilim - Pure theoryfaux, again, but it should shine in Royal Titania's crew. With access to the Fae Squeal, extra armor and heals both from Titania and Emissary, he can be quite survivable. He offers some pushes and the very best Ml attack Changelings (summoned by the Emissary) can copy - :+fate to attack flips and min dmg 4.

Hum This would mean having a 1SS upgrade (which you may take anyway of course) and spending high cards, one of your Master's AP, the Emissary's 0 action (so no hungry land marker this turn) to make the Mature survivable despite his Df4.

Changelings would need to be very near him to copy his attack, so this will require set up (but is far from impossible to manage).

This seems very resource & placement intensive, doesn't it?

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I think he is worth the 10ss. Just look at ply for example. They ply Barbie, ok. Now they want to ply another model but nope, Wp14 duel or they can't do that (and probably take damage if you are running Pandora). The Tannen + Barbaros combo in a Lucius list would mean I set up cooler with Lucius scaring Tannen to do it so no one can interact near him but they need to pass both challenge and manipulative cheating for double the card cost to remove him.

Wp 14 is a pretty decent duel and aura 8 is a lot of board covered. They charge my model, maybe the charge started outside the aura so they don't need to duel for that but each free attack is declared individually so they need to pass those wp14 duels. Yasinori careens into my crew and gets a ton of extra triggers but each and every one of those needs to pass that duel or just whiffs. If the enemy intends to hurt your models all those duels add up. They also add up when the enemy has abilites targeting their own models. There are lots of automatic actions that include the magic words "Target model" and thus need to take that wp 14. It definitely makes your job easier if they are spending part of their good hand cards on that instead of cheating hits and defenses.

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46 minutes ago, yool1981 said:

Is Barbaros worth 10SS to you though?

 

3 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

I think he is worth the 10ss. Just look at ply for example. They ply Barbie, ok. Now they want to ply another model but nope, Wp14 duel or they can't do that (and probably take damage if you are running Pandora).

Can't say if its cost's OK, cause I have never played him. We, the Neverborn, are supposed to have unique Henchmen with interesting abilities, not the strong ones ;) . @Ludvig , I don't think it's a good example. Whole enemy's crew can farm Barbie for Information like there's no tomorrow, provided they  have movement tricks or other means to get to him.

 

54 minutes ago, yool1981 said:

Hum This would mean having a 1SS upgrade (which you may take anyway of course) and spending high cards, one of your Master's AP, the Emissary's 0 action (so no hungry land marker this turn) to make the Mature survivable despite his Df4.

Changelings would need to be very near him to copy his attack, so this will require set up (but is far from impossible to manage).

This seems very resource & placement intensive, doesn't it?

You make it sound much less appealing :P

Seriously though: I may agree that's resource intensive, I disagree with your placement worries. Keep in mind that 'lings have that powerful place (0) action, so they can do the set up thing themselves. 

It may be hard to decide which Emissary's '0' to use, especially at the round 2, true.
If you value Titania's AP more than a high card you can hire Malifaux Child to cast the action from her upgrade.

As I have said, that's just a theoryfaux, yet I'm quite fond of it, so thank you for pointing out all the weak spots of my brain's child. ;)

Just to be fair - Of course, one can choose Nekima as a beater in the Fae Queen's Court Crew, spending more SS points to hire her, then burning stones like crazy for damage prevention, while whining: 'Where's my defensive push trigger?', 'Why, oh why I couldn't take retribution's eye?', '13 ss model, and NO damage reduction?', 'Why those Changelings can't hit anything without cheating high?' etc. :P;)

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3 hours ago, yool1981 said:

 

  • Tannen - So I tried Tannen on Saturday night, again... Every time I make a list with him I am sure I have found a way to make him work. Every time I fail, he dies turn 2. His

Tannen is getting killed early because your opponent is getting an opportunity to kill him. I have found that Tannen can be such a game changing pain in the ass if I leave him alone that he becomes a priority target for me if I see him.

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15 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

Wicked dolls can be really good in a colloddi crew with 3 stitched and a couple of effigies, going above htk is really good.

Also they combo well with hinamatsu and a performer for massive damage.

I play Dreamer and Dora, both are masters that like to operate in the bubble of self-adoration, where every single model buffs or supports others. When I first saw Hinamatsu I thought: 'That's it! A self-sufficient model that can perform well outside the bubble! The flanker I always dreamed of!'. After I read your comment I started creating crews with Hinamatsu's own bubble of self-adoration.

How could you do that to me?!:angry:

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2 hours ago, Pikciwok said:

I see some potential with Collodi, i'm sceptical about the twins

the thing with the twins and wicked dolls is the healing and the :+fate to the pounce attacks since the twins share conditions and healing. i run those 3 in a titania crew and they can murder just about anything when tooth is involved.

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1 hour ago, Pikciwok said:

 

Can't say if its cost's OK, cause I have never played him. We, the Neverborn, are supposed to have unique Henchmen with interesting abilities, not the strong ones ;) . @Ludvig , I don't think it's a good example. Whole enemy's crew can farm Barbie for Information like there's no tomorrow, provided they  have movement tricks or other means to get to him.

They can't farm him if he gets it from one of them. Or at least they will have a harder time doing it. He is nimble and has solid defense so he can easily disengage to get it from an enemy model if they are anywhere near him.

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Interesting topic.

I don't consider Barbaros, the Black Blood Shaman or Young Nephilim to be anywhere near bad.

  • Barbaros is a simply fantastic control piece. Activate him early to put up Challenge and Nimble / Charge into the most annoying spot possible.  Your goal is to have enemies engaged with something else big and scary (or that they actually want to hit) but not able to touch Barbaros himself.  The other player will happily cheat mid cards on the first couple of Challenge duels but when it comes to mid turn and the choice is to drop a face card or waste the AP it becomes much more fun.  Armour, Black Blood and decent defensive statistics will keep him around for a good few turns even if he does get caught (and sometimes you can surprise people with a cheeky use of his defensive trigger).  Sample game report here, especially turn two.
  • The Black Blood Shaman is more niche (i.e. crews predominantly filled with other Black Blood models) but fills that niche nicely.  I've used him with a Collodi grow crew several times and been very happy, here for example.
  • Young Nephilim are highly mobile due to Flight and can eat most other scheme runners in their range.  Mobility allows good positional play; good positional play will mean that you win.  They're also amusing to keep floating around the fringes to opportunistically become Matures.  I quite often start with Tots and look to Grow them but I have some Young in my starting crew in this game.

Tannen, Candy and the Mature Nephilim I feel have their places. 

  • Tannen is an excellent control piece; that you've seen him taken down swiftly demonstrates that the other player is aware of his potential and is taking steps to deal with him.  You can use this to your advantage and trade Tannen for board position or attrition if the trap goes well.
  • I will admit that I've found Candy hard to use well, but I have seen others do OK with her so I assume that this is mainly a matter of playstyle.  She has some cool tricks with the Sweets / Sours abilities and it is rare that I regret a big engagement range.  I could see her getting some minor adjustment.
  • The Mature Nephilim brings good speed and weak damage of 4.  I do feel like a utility (0) action would be quite helpful, but otherwise I do quite like him for a budget fighter.  Between flight and that colossal charge range he's quite easy to bring to bear, and positive attack flips means that he's not too card hungry. 

I do agree on Wicked Dolls, I can't find any good use for them.

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Barbaros isn't a hammer, he's a wrench. You throw him into the enemy crew and he will waste your opponents AP and cards. He's Df6, Wp7, 10 Wd and Armor +1. If he hits you he can push you 4" away out of a scoring position or into my crew to get chewed up. And on top of all that he can waste your AP just by being within 8" and LoS of your models. Want to buff one of your models? Wp 14 duel. Want to attack one of my models? Wp 14 duel. Want to push someone? Wp 14 duel. It's not hard to make a situation where you need to pass 10+ Wp 14 duels each turn past turn 2. Throw in a BBS or Malifaux Provides with a source of scheme markers or Lilith's new upgrade to heal 2 on a 0" and you make it that much harder to kill Barbaros.

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9 hours ago, yool1981 said:

Black blood shaman - I may be wrong but I have the feeling they are overcosted by 2SS imho.

I always take one BBS with Lynch and it never disappoints me. Throw black blood on 2 illuminated turn 1 and later just support to make them even more survivable, and even more hard-hitting, and inflict a bit of irresistible damage if someone gets within 1"

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Candy really needs activation control options (specifically, Mood Swing and a model with the Depression upgrade for Nobody Likes Me) to be optimal. Handing out unavoidable paralysis and 3-damage chunks through Sweets and Sours is what makes her worth 9 SS, but she can't do it alone.

As others have noted, most of the models in this list (Barbaros being an exception, in my opinion) are supporting models that need something else to really shine. All of them have a role, which they're good at performing, and none of them are beaters or obvious scheme runners. It's just a matter of building the right synergies into the crew... and a little luck.

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As mentioned before Candy needs someone who applies “mood swing” and/or “nobody likes me”. So Pandora and Iggy are good choices to join the little girl. Usually I used her in “guard the stash” or other control position strategies. “Fears given form “ works pretty good on her here as well.

To be honest I don’t really know what to do only with one model from my collection - Angel Eyes. Maybe just pray more and wait for July errata?:D

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Sorry for the late reply.

On the Nephilim side. I did not say that Barbaros was bad, I just said he was 0.5-1SS overcosted. I make good use of him and I like him (especially because of his challenge aura and his alt scupt) but his very low damage output is detrimental in many circumstances for a piece of this cost.

As to the BBS & Young - Mature Neph. I guess it is is a question of choice.

For Candy, I need to try her again in the rightly themed crew I guess.

On Tannen, I am still unconvinced. I'll give it a go another time when I have the opportunity (and vendetta is not in the pool).

On 23/01/2018 at 2:42 AM, Redline said:
On 22/01/2018 at 5:00 PM, yool1981 said:

Black blood shaman - I may be wrong but I have the feeling they are overcosted by 2SS imho.

I always take one BBS with Lynch and it never disappoints me. Throw black blood on 2 illuminated turn 1 and later just support to make them even more survivable, and even more hard-hitting, and inflict a bit of irresistible damage if someone gets within 1"

I'm curious, wouldn't you be better off with a 3rd Illuminated?

On 23/01/2018 at 6:45 AM, le_sphinx said:

To be honest I don’t really know what to do only with one model from my collection - Angel Eyes.

I tried her a few times and she is useful as she provides a nice range support but she is vastly overcosted (1-2SS overcosted I think). She is competing with Hans and the Trapper and she is not winning this competition. For 2SS more you can have Lazarus for another kind of range support (but I am biased, I love Lazarus).

But the whole starter box on the NB side is really bad honestly.

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4 minutes ago, yool1981 said:

I'm curious, wouldn't you be better off with a 3rd Illuminated?

Probably no, as BBS can give only Black Blood only 2 times in the first turn, and turn two Illuminated like to be already on the frontline, not in the range of Shaman's :meleerange

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1 hour ago, Redline said:
1 hour ago, yool1981 said:

I'm curious, wouldn't you be better off with a 3rd Illuminated?

Probably no, as BBS can give only Black Blood only 2 times in the first turn, and turn two Illuminated like to be already on the frontline, not in the range of Shaman's :meleerange

I meant instead of spending 7SS on a BBS, wouldn't it be more effective to just hire a 3rd Illuminated instead?

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love Candy in my pandora crews. another 3" fears given form (great when you catch someone in 2) plus with activation control you can be paralysing or adding yet more damage to models without having to flip cards yourself, just by standing around.

one thing with her though is never sit near a flesh construct, thought I was safe then found out it ignored manipulation and ate her :D 

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I've always wanted to try the BBS and Illuminated combo. It kind of has a purpose, Black Blood is a really great ability to possess, I run Black Blood models enough to know the 1 damage adds up. But the 7ss does feel wasted, sure a BB Illuminated is nice, but it doesn't really benefit from the Pustule triggers as much. It already heals at least 1 wound a turn, if not more, so the crows isn't really necessary. The + to ML is crazy, but Brilliance kind of achieves the same thing. + to DF duels is great, but Illuminated are tanks as it is. 

It's a great idea and I guess play testing is always an option, but it doesn't seem really efficient for the 7ss. Could be fun with Liliths new upgrade to heal a BB model within 6' 2 wounds, creating an almost unkillable crack addict 😂

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On 29.01.2018 at 3:31 PM, yool1981 said:

But the whole starter box on the NB side is really bad honestly.

I think Bloodwretches are fine minions that can work very well with Dreamer, Zoraida or Aionus (maybe other combos in NB?). Scion is ok, because of conditon removal aura (yeah quite expensive) and his (0) action. The issue is his attacks - while having good damage, their skill is only 5.

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