Drunken Kung fu s.o.s

[EpicWaffle]

I just finished watching Drunken Master (an earlie jacky chan movie, a true gem) and I now want more than anything to play brewie xD this, and @daniello_s recent post, got me thinking that brewie, while being extremely awesome (as concept) has little to no use compared to other masters. I'm not saying "wyrd buff him so he's competitive and super strong", tho he sure needs some love. By taking a look at wave 5 models ideas, it looks like he's reciving some, but  is it enough? 

So my idea was, what do you think brewie need ATM? What would you "create"/change in order to make him viable among the other masters?  

[Math Mathonwy]

Add Casting Expert.

But in all seriousness, Brewmaster is a difficult concept. He is often seen as frustrating when his bubble works so making it work better is dangerous. Swill is OK but it is a bit boring as a main focus and making it even better would just emphasize that further. Debuffing Wp is nice but tied to the bubble. Making Obey better is encroaching into Zoraida's territory.

One thing that immediately springs to mind is that his Upgrades stink. Binge if good but the rest are some of the very worst Master-specific Upgrades in the game. And even with Binge there is the problem that why not Swill some more instead? I mean, there certainly are situations where you want to Binge but it's still somewhat niche ability. And I'm not sure that the Maks was meant to work on friendlies  

Brewmaster is also oddly resilient in that he crumbles like a wet paper bag against shooting but bubble can make melee a nightmare and Wesley is of course another (weird) factor.

I would like to see him being better at buffing Moon Shinobis and the Whiskey Golem. Maybe Swill against friendlies allows for a second Swill to be cast immediately at a different target?

[daniello_s]

58 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

One thing that immediately springs to mind is that his Upgrades stink.

Sadly this ^

[EpicWaffle]

@Math Mathonwy maybe one upgrade could something along the line of "INEBRIATED",  which allowsfriendly  models in a certain bubble (to fortify his theme), to gain some benefits of being drunk (so having poison). Also, moonshinobis and the golem really need some love.

I get your points and I concurr that brewie can get frustrating when your deck is on fire, but I feel like he's forced into lists which are nothing to how brewie "should be played", thematically talking. So maybe some models THAT ACTUALLY ARE USABLE (akanmes, im looking at you)  that would allow him to have some better impact on a match! Something along the line of the Hinamatsu (I'm not sure if it's written this way) for collodi, where a big puppet models was really what he needed (so a tweak to the golem could achieve something similar just to make an example).

[Omenbringer]

I would also throw in that Brew Masters stock crew isn't really that great. He runs much better in 10 Thunders than in Gremlins. Moon Shinobi could use some help, they are in almost all cases worse than Fermented River Monks.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Omenbringer
sloppy grammar

[PositronMike]

I really like the concept for Brewmaster and would love him to be an effective tar pit master. Part of me is tempted to say he needs to lose Obey and just concentrate on debuffing the enemy. I would also suggest he could do with Instinctual as both his (0)s are good and then it would also make Liquid Bravery and Drinking Problem upgrades worth considering taking on him. The only upgrade I really think is a waste is The Good Stuff.

[Cadaver_Junkie]

On 5/17/2017 at 11:21 AM, Omenbringer said:

I would also throw in that Brew Masters stock crew isn't really that great. He runs much better in 10 Thunders than in Gremlins. Moon Shinobi could use some help, they are in almost all cases worse than Fermented River Monks.

I'm not so sure about that.

I run Brewmaster a lot, and have taken him to a couple of large tournaments recently. The Moon Shinobi have been standout models. Great defence (as good as the Fermented River Monks when the monks are buffed by poison), and incredibly potent with a swill or two. Drunken Gremlin Kung Fu is pretty strong.

 

Also, Running Moon Shinobi alongside Akaname makes the Shinobi crazy agile, the utility provided by Akaname to a Gremlins, themed Tri Chi list is quite reasonable.

Just... if you're running Brewmaster, don't even worry about his aura. It's a waste of time, unless you're lucky. Just concentrate on Swill. Which is a little boring, to be honest. It's good, but changing it up a little might be what I'd aim for, if anything.

[EpicWaffle]

10 hours ago, Cadaver_Junkie said:

I'm not so sure about that.

I run Brewmaster a lot, and have taken him to a couple of large tournaments recently. The Moon Shinobi have been standout models. Great defence (as good as the Fermented River Monks when the monks are buffed by poison), and incredibly potent with a swill or two. Drunken Gremlin Kung Fu is pretty strong.

 

Also, Running Moon Shinobi alongside Akaname makes the Shinobi crazy agile, the utility provided by Akaname to a Gremlins, themed Tri Chi list is quite reasonable.

Just... if you're running Brewmaster, don't even worry about his aura. It's a waste of time, unless you're lucky. Just concentrate on Swill. Which is a little boring, to be honest. It's good, but changing it up a little might be what I'd aim for, if anything.

Interesting to hear mind explaining how you run akaname? What's their purpode in the crew? I guess is something along the line of handling poison to river monks but its better to be sure cause it sounds interesting

Also if you have the time, mind sharing some lists you run or some general ideas? It's good to have some feedback from some successful gremlin players

[Lokibri]

I just released a Crew Setup for Brewie. Maybe you can take a look and find some fun in playing him

 

[Mr. Kelevra]

I think the biggest issue I run into with running Brewmaster right now is super heavy hitters. Still think maybe an upgrade card that would give him some melee ability would be nice, but also not needed.

Does anyone else give their moon shinobi Swill so they have +1 to Def flips? 

[Omenbringer]

On 5/18/2017 at 8:55 PM, Cadaver_Junkie said:

I run Brewmaster a lot, and have taken him to a couple of large tournaments recently. The Moon Shinobi have been standout models. Great defence (as good as the Fermented River Monks when the monks are buffed by poison), and incredibly potent with a swill or two. Drunken Gremlin Kung Fu is pretty strong.

While this works it shows the issues with the Moon Shinobi.

In order for them to be a viable option over the Fermented River Monk they need the Brew Master to dedicate Actions to just them. Even here though, I would argue, throwing Swill on the model the Fermented River Monk is engaging instead would produce a similar removal difficulty while also limiting that models presence (Offensively as well as defensively).

One thing that could push the Moon Shinobi's viability up would be another model that could pass out that all important modifier for them.

[Four_N_Six]

You could always use Wesley to give the Shinobi Swill.  He can only get 1 per turn, but he's got a better chance of getting it onto a Shinobi than he does getting it onto a target that a monk is engaged with.

[SAYNE]

Maybe if they changed one of Brewys (lackluster) upgrades to something like

"Yer just getting prettier and prettier": Models within 6" with the Poison +2 condition suffer -flip. Models with the Poison +3 condition suffer - - flip. 

 

Or something. Basically, Swill would be 'less' of something he HAD to do every turn because it would eventually happen naturally. You could still do it to models immune to poison, or as a quick boost. But it wouldn't be the "only good action" anymore. Might also fix the upgrade situation.

[SAYNE]

As a side note. I would give akaname an aura too, something like

"Stain of Filth": Models within 3" with the Poison condition do not lose stacks of the Poison condition if they normally would. 

Not sure how to word it, but it's supposed to help Moon shinobis (preventing them from taking damage from poison), while also allowing Brewie to acquire stacks easier.

Also might make them generally more useful to a gremlin crew if facing ressers for instance.

 

[Four_N_Six]

I agree on a boost to Brewmaster, he's my favorite gremlin, but automatically giving  for being near him is way overkill.  I can see something else.  Like if you have Poison +3, you have to pass a Wp duel or gain slow.  Something like that maybe?  But still a stretch.

What Brewmaster really needs to assist in his effectiveness is more models that can deliver poison effectively without making it the only thing they do, and/or a way to deliver poison at range.  The main issue I have with him is getting him close to models without having the poison buffer to keep him safe.

[SAYNE]

I wouldn't call the negative flip automatic per se. It still would rely on poison stacks sticking to an opponent. 

If it would be too much, perhaps make the negatives only towards attack flips? It would still boost Brewie and Co. Survivability, but wouldn't mean you could start shredding the opponents models as well.

Of course this is all hypothetical unless Wyrd is watching >.>

On the getting close factor, it seems like Brewie's obvious weakness is any range at all. I feel like that helps keep him in a niche and basically makes any buffs given to him involving melee only half as effective. Personally, at least, I'd rather him get better at what he's already good at, instead of turning him into another gremlin generalist. It's already tough competition. If he had something that just made him obviously better, rather than a very specific advantage, he would simply out(moon)shine everyone else.

I'm okay with a master who is not "competitive" in the sense they can win every game and have an option for everything. I'm not really okay with a master who can barely win at what they were supposed to do in an already small niche.

Tl;Dr Leave the weaknesses, amplify the strength. Make him feel OP at the one thing he's supposed to be OP at. Let him suck at everything else. At least when you win, you're gonna win big.

[Bazlord_Prime]

On 30/05/2017 at 0:12 AM, Four_N_Six said:

Like if you have Poison +3, you have to pass a Wp duel or gain slow.  Something like that maybe?  But still a stretch.

What Brewmaster really needs to assist in his effectiveness is more models that can deliver poison effectively without making it the only thing they do, and/or a way to deliver poison at range.  The main issue I have with him is getting him close to models without having the poison buffer to keep him safe.

I like that idea of the Drinking Contest being more about giving out Slow. Will have to think about that one - how would it work?

Wave 5 has the 10T Tanuki coming (5ss Tri Chi minion), but it doesn't sound as though that's going to hand out much Poison, and not at all at range. It does sound good for giving out Fast & Reactivate to Brewie's crew, though. 

What I'd really like to see is a mid-cost (7ss?) Tri Chi Enforcer or Henchman - something that can throw Poison at range, and that can take the 2ss Drinking "Problem" upgrade without it having to go on Fingers or Whiskey (upping them to 12ss if you want to take it). This model already sounds quite support-orientated, so perhaps it could be a Gremlin rip-off of a 10T Archer/Katanaka Sniper? Could have a Gremlin blow-pipe with poison darts. Or it could be a grenadier, lobbing around glass flasks full o' dregs. Just something to fill the gap.

[Tokapondora]

What the Brewmaster needs is a big step away from poison. His thematic units all revolve around the mechanic of handing out enough poison, getting into position and getting the right activation order, all so you can follow it up with effects that are utterly mediocre. It's just not worth the fuss, especially since not playing on poison means you are much more flexible and free in how you can assemble your list. Imo, the reason why he's generally seen as better in TT than in Gremlins is because TT is pretty much the best faction at making a generic list that you can slap onto any master, meaning you can safely leave the poison behind and play purely staples. And even then all these Tri-chi models are locked behind a shitty 2 SS upgrade; why would you spend 2 SS just so you can take a Tanuki or Fermented River Monk - even if you thought they'd bring something to your crew, do they bring 7 SS's worth to your crew?

The other thing (problem?) is that Swill just works. Using Swill on something will often be so much more effective than anything else he can spend his AP on. Obey is good in a pinch, though annoyingly suitless, and giving that suit would be a great way for the Brewmaster to both turn his AP into attacks or disrupt your opponent's units. Binge can rid a hand of its last cards that your opponent seems to save up, completely lock down an enemy unit, and even (with some help from fast and Wesley) drain up to 5 cards from a hand a turn. So with that he has a way to severely lower a model's odds of success, can damage or reposition enemy units, and attack their hand while chipping away at a model. And then there's his 3" bubble, which is like a small scale manipulative that raises its TN and heals you the more you fail it.

Meanwhile he has no uses for poison besides that bubble. One attack on an upgrade that rids your opponent off all their poison to paralyze them, which runs counter to how you'd still like poison to exist on models. Why do that when a well timed Swill or two will be about as effective for zero set-up. And with his other actions all being decent by themselves, why would he spend his AP trying to even poison them. And at that point you're left with the crew doing all the poisoning and the crew using all the poison - so why not paste that crew onto a better master and get better results out of all the poison shenanigans. Beyond that 6" aura it does nothing, so why not get a great generalist master while your crew faffs around playing with poison - the answer to that obviously being that there's much more effective models to compose a crew of, and if there's much better crews to compose, why bring a poison crew to the Brewmaster.

[lame0]

Personally I think there is way to much defense for what in my opinion is the worst model in the gremlin line. The moon shinobi needs a master ap per turn to not be terrible is not resilient and don't have reckless. I feel like reckless would go a long way to making them interesting because at least the investment of a swill starts to look better. Why would I use a moon shinobi when I could take Burt or a taxidermist for one more which have reckless ml 6 and can either summon + have + flips to damage or have high damage output with some resilience. Tbh even with reckless im not in love with moon shinobi. Brewie wouldn't mind getting tri chi for 1 ss instead 2 to get more options

I think for brewmaster he needs a buff to one of his concepts outside of swill. The bubble could be made bigger 2 like 6-8 inches making it easier for him to actually deny something of importance.

He could also get a 1ss upgrade which makes his obey get the suite for free if his target has the poison condition and add more poison if he hits some trigger making him support way better and not waste his card resources.

I also think it be great if he got other options to support.(best masters in Gremlins support somer with do it like this & Wong with ooo glowy for 3 models) another upgrade like letting models in 8 use a 0 action for "drunken master" remove a poison counter this model receives the focused  +1 or defensive +1.

[lame0]

21 hours ago, lame0 said:

Shit I clicked quote instead of edit my bad.