Grow, what's the deal?

[Velcro]

Quick background. Brand new player, haven't played a game yet but hopefully this weekend.

Right, so I got Nekima and her upgrade talks about Grow and Mature abilities for Terror Tots but I can't find those abilities anywhere. How do I Grow these things? Even the Pull My Finger entry for Lilith and Lilitu talk about this but as an upgrade. I'm so confused. How does this mechanic work?

Also, the general census is that Young Nephilim suck, but I've gone over their cards and they seem amazing to me. Why are they crapped on so much? They have average DF/WP, good WD, and a huge charge with an amazing MI attack. Why do people not like them? Is it their lack of defensive abilities? WD 7 seems pretty difficult to do in a single activation given how hard it is to get severe damage flips.

[Mutter]

There is a Nephilim upgrade called 'Rapid Growth'. It's Rare 1, and it enables Tots and Young to grow. It's in Lilith's box, I think, and in one of the Arsenal packs.

 

And I think most people don't think much of Young because they're a bit weak for beaters and not fast enough for scheme runners.

In a grow list, they work well, though.

[Velcro]

It wasn't in my Lilith box. Can anyone confirm this? I might be missing a card it seems.

Maybe I'm not jaded to their damage because I don't know many models yet, but their damage is pretty good, especially since they basically get 4 attacks per turn.

[Four_N_Six]

I was under the impression that rapid growth is in the nephalim box, because you need them to run a grow list anyways. I know some people like them, but I've always thought a grow list to be pretty inefficient on AP. I'm sure people will have examples where I'm wrong, but in most situations it's probably not the best use of resources 

[Mutter]

1 hour ago, Four_N_Six said:

I was under the impression that rapid growth is in the nephalim box, because you need them to run a grow list anyways. I know some people like them, but I've always thought a grow list to be pretty inefficient on AP. I'm sure people will have examples where I'm wrong, but in most situations it's probably not the best use of resources 

It's definitely in the Arsenal 1 box, but I'm not sure where else.

 

The AP about grow lists gets mentioned again and again, but in the few games I've played so far, it's been a wash. Sometimes I grow something that hasn't activated (thus losing an AP), sometimes I get to grow something which has already activated, therefor gaining me one.

 

Here is a tournament report which I found really interesting regarding grow lists:

*edit: Yes, it's the Nephilim box that has the 'Rapid Growth' update:

http://gmortschaotica.blogspot.de/2014/02/unboxing-malifaux-nephilim.html

 

[Ludvig]

The nephilim aren't bad but they compete with a lot sturdier choices like waldgeists and illuminated. The former do about the same damage but are a lot harder to kill for the same cost and the latter are a lot better in every way for a single stone more. I don't think nephilim are bad, it's just that online forums gravitate towards "best choice, never pick anything else"-mentality (at least I think so).

 

I had a wonderful game against a Som'er summoning list where I started more or less engaged with half his list due to waldgeists getting to deploy after him and then could munch on gremlins with all my nephs. If you have growth and obisidan talons in the list you can cause some rather unexpected bursts of damage with your tots after they've placed a marker or two for whatever scheme.

[Rob Lo]

I'm just getting into Lilith myself, but from what I've seen and heard mentioned many times over the years is that grow lists can be effective or not from one game to the next, but frequently they're considered a trap for newer players, because it's very easy to spend a lot of time and energy getting the grow to happen, focusing on that rather than on actually getting points. You can end up having a wonderfully grown up crew later in the game, with no turns left and no points to show for it. So if you can ride that line of an effective grow mechanic while actually scoring points, you're golden. It's just not easy to find that sweet balance point while being murderized in all the myriad fun ways Malifaux provides us.

[Myth]

Grow lists are somewhat more viable these days now that there are more pieces for it (like Nekima and her upgrade, and the Black Blood Shaman, and new Nephilim options like Angel Eyes to take Rapid Growth). But, as much as I like Malifaux's upgrade system, the grow list is probably the worst representation of it - the need to take multiple specific upgrades on multiple specific models, and have very careful positioning to make sure the right models are in the right auras at the right time - and the potential to have the entire core of the list stop working as soon as the wrong model gets taken out - makes it a lot more fiddly than most people want to deal with, especially when so many other summoning crews can generate new models much more easily.

That said, when it works, it can really work - Nekima dropping into the middle of some wounded models, spawning a tot by killing one via Black Blood, then killing a model to Grow that Tot, then the new Young Nephilim finishing off a wounded Enforcer to Mature... that can be amazing. Unfortunately, it is also something of a 'win more' situation - the list only tends to work when you are already in a winning situation.

Ultimately, I treat it largely as a bonus - if I already have a Nephilim-heavy crew, and have room for the upgrades, I'll toss them in, and if they work out, that's great! But I don't usually build a list around it or try to make that my theme, since that typically leads to disappointment.

[santaclaws01]

Black Blood shamans definitely help with grow lists, but the main issue with running a grow list is you're basically trying to complete a third scheme that doesn't directly give you any points, and you have models that absolutely can't die otherwise the whole thing just falls apart.

[Velcro]

Shame. Nephilim look amazing, but yeah this just doesn't sound like it's worth investing in them. Oh well.

[santaclaws01]

10 minutes ago, Velcro said:

Shame. Nephilim look amazing, but yeah this just doesn't sound like it's worth investing in them. Oh well.

Grow lists are "win more" lists, and only work in specific scheme pools. That being said, Angel Eyes helps with carrying Rapid Growth and hanging just in range for models to benefit, and between Nekima and BBS you can get new Terror Tots to keep up activation control. Basically just don't play it in a tournament you intend to win.

Also, something I forgot to point out earlier, Young Nephilim aren't limited to only 4 attacks per turn. Go re-read their  attack trigger, you can declare it indefinitely.

[Sybaris]

The Youngs do have one thing going for them that might be worth it in some situation and that's their auto-push. This can trigger pounce from the tots or, more dangerously, lilith's welcoming embrace (or trigger her roots). You can also use that push to move enemy models away from scoring positions (if already activated) or into serious trouble. Tots are better for schemes and Matures completely trump youngs when it comes to killing (it's better to have one mature and a tot than two youngs imho), but for the stones spent, youngs contribute to the ping-pong game alot. I do agree that they are well below illuminated in potency and not quite as useful as waldegeist, but i still often take a young to escort some tots on a far-off scheming run. They do pack a punch if you have good rams to cheat in.

Growing to me was always more of a sideline to the idea of nephilim, and it's a good thing otherwise the principle would create a sort of steamroller gameplay (which isn't fun to play against). The Black Blood Shaman can help grow, sure, but his best use is for the pustule's shenanigans (to me at least). Nekima is a good beater who might grow or pop a tot if you give her that upgrade, but there's no way i am going to plan for that, her actions are too precious. So growing is a psychological tool that does work at times, but won't win you games...that being said it's still nice to have and can throw an opponent off balance depending on where it happens on the table.

 

 

[Lordgimpet]

The problem with alot of the neverborn models, is they are not blunt instruments and require more creative thinking to get the most out of the models,  Young are great for collect the bounty as you can double dip the points with young if played correctly.  For a growth direction it comes down to how the player behaves. If the play the crew with the primary focus of getting as many mature out asap then you will lose as your scoring potential is distracted.  However if you go in with the mindset to score vp and treat any growth opportunities as a bonus we then it's just as strong and viable as any list.  To sum up players themselves have more impact on list viability than the list itself. 

 

[-Loki-]

15 hours ago, Velcro said:

Shame. Nephilim look amazing, but yeah this just doesn't sound like it's worth investing in them. Oh well.

You don't need to run Grow lists to run Nephilim. They're still fast glass cannons, so adjust your playstyle accordingly. I really enjoy using them with Lilith. If you want to stick to Nephilim without Growth they have the widest range of models under that tag that Neverborn has access to. You've got fast scheme runners with Tots, sturdier (but not overly sturdy) beaters with Wretches, glass cannon beaters with Young Nephilim, support with Shamans, control with Lilutu, range with Angel Eyes and Tuco and big beaters with Nekima and the Mature Nephilim.

As already said, Nephilim are good, but they're outclassed by a few things (and to be fair, Illuminated outclass most, if not all, minions in their SS range). You're not going to lose playing them, but you won't win with them if you don't realise their weakness (durability).

[Ludvig]

I may have a little different view.

If you have a nephilim enforcer/henchman with an upgrade slot left over and a couple of neph minions in your list I think 1ss for the potential to finish something off with a young and gaining a mature is not to be sniffed at.

I have a limited model pool for neverborn so I often run Barbaros. Throwing growth on him for that kind of potential isn't a bad investment of 1ss. Young nephilim can as was stated earlier get a lot of attacks and hit quite decently for a 6ss model, even more so if Barbaros also took obsidian talons so any mask to hit will make you able to guarantue 4 damage in a single strike. There are many enforcers that people play extremely aggressively in this game and growth + a single young played carefully turn 1 can be a very good deterrent against alpha-striking with Langston/Killjoy/whatever. The rule of thumb in my meta is go for the throat so models start dropping turn 1 in most games and needing to kill an enforcer isn't a third scheme in my eyes. That enforcer is probably hanging out in the middle of my crew needing to be killed ASAP so I would need to do it anyway. 

[trikk]

Just now, Ludvig said:

The rule of thumb in my meta is go for the throat so models start dropping turn 1 in most games and needing to kill an enforcer isn't a third scheme in my eyes. That enforcer is probably hanging out in the middle of my crew needing to be killed ASAP so I would need to do it anyway. 

 

Me and my Neverborn friend have a saying T1. "Do you stone for cards?" "Nah, its Turn 1, nothing is going to happen". Then all hell breaks loose Turn 1.

[Ludvig]

In my last game I killed 10 ss and my opponent 13 ss turn 1. Standard deployment, none of the schemes were about killing and I was playing a sub-optimal Lucius list with no real alpha-strike potential.

[orkdork]

I think young neph are solid. 2/4/5 with auto push is excellent for 6 stones. Flight is amazing on the right board.

The trouble isnt young neph, the "trouble" is we are spoiled for choice. Young neph are good at many things, but for a given game, there are often better choices.

Schemes? We have many many incredible options. Area control? Can't beat the waldgeist. Killing? Illuminated and stitched are hard to beat.

If you love the models, use them!

As far a grow lists, I consider them cute, but never tournament-worthy.

[Parker Barrows]

Weirdly enough, I think my best run with a Grow List was using Lucius and Nekima. Commanding Presence helped.

Grow Lists are fun, but they've rarely worked out for me (Lucius being one of the exceptions). Regardless of whether I win or not, I just don't seem to get the Grow off, sacrifice VP to get it off, or finally get that Terror Tot to a Mature Nephilim to just see it get killed before it gets to Activate (no seriously, this happens to me all the time).

[lusciousmccabe]

2 hours ago, Parker Barrows said:

Weirdly enough, I think my best run with a Grow List was using Lucius and Nekima. Commanding Presence helped.

You could probably do it better with The Dreamer. 

[Ergonomic Cat]

 

Weirdly enough, I think my best run with a Grow List was using Lucius and Nekima. Commanding Presence helped.

Grow Lists are fun, but they've rarely worked out for me (Lucius being one of the exceptions). Regardless of whether I win or not, I just don't seem to get the Grow off, sacrifice VP to get it off, or finally get that Terror Tot to a Mature Nephilim to just see it get killed before it gets to Activate (no seriously, this happens to me all the time).

Semi-necro post, but it seems appropriate in our forums.

I think part of the issue, from my completely non-playing it, but listening to people talk about it, is the idea that you should grow a Tot in to a Mature (or even bigger, spawn a tot, grow a tot in to a mature).  Realistically, in a 5-7 turn game, that's a lot of commitment.

However, as people have mentioned, the idea of turning a Young in to a Mature at some point (I don't think I'd want to turn a Tot in to a Young unless you're just spoiled for scheme markers and have all the options covered) can be useful, I think.  If you have an upgrade slot, and you're playing a Young Neph, put Rapid Growth on Nekima/Barbaros/Lilith/whatever is in the middle.  Run the Young as a flanker to your main beatstick, and play them together.  Then, when you do get the kill, you've got reasonable odds that it'll flip the Young to a Mature.  You might lose an AP doing it, but you've also turned a reasonable threat in to a big threat, which can be worth the AP.

Personally, I'm going to try the Angel Eyes route, because I think she can position and kill in such a way that she can trigger it without a huge opportunity cost.  We'll see if it works.  I think it's going to be fun in any case.