What is Powered?

[Fetid Strumpet]

So a topic I thought worthy of discussion has been kicking around in my head for awhile. I was considering that we are now just about at the point where I think Wyrd was seriously thinking about what they learned in 1.5 and was thinking about version 2.0. As we are now at about that time ourselves into M2E, I thought it might be interesting to consider what models might be considered the most successful designs in M2E. There is usually so much discussion about what is Over-Powered, and Under-Powered, I was curious about what models (Masters, or any other station) the community regards the most successful designs. Those that are just... Powered, right at about the perfect balance point of Malifaux.

Let me clarify, I'm not speaking about what might be considered the amazing models. I'm not talking about the auto-includes or the never includes. I'm specifically speaking about what models the community thinks Wyrd got the balance just right on, and specially why.

[Myyrä]

The right power level is sort of a moving target. New models have to be borderline op to be viable, while many models that are at the moment considered too weak were rather well balanced in wave 1.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I know, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a functional mean.

[Tawg]

1 hour ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I know, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a functional mean.

But it does mean that, that mean, could be different based on timing as closely as just before GG2016 came out or after Wave 4 releases.  Either of which can change the meta, based on what people find useful?

 

Personally, I think the premise of the question is simply flawed.  You can't really divorce models from the game and get any sort of metric of "power", because it's what else that determines that, and like @Myyrä says it's constantly changing.  I hear there are even different top-level competitive choices made between European players and American players, just by virtue of having different enough exposure to the game (different metas).

But more importantly, I don't think that a model fitting right smack-dab in the middle of a "power balance" scale, at any point, is the metric for good design.  Granted this is personal opinion, but good design should be something that engages the facilitates of the players and interacts with the rules in interesting ways, or combines different aspects of the game for interesting outcomes.  Hard To Kill + Eat Your Fill on the Jorogumo, for instance, is a fairly straight forward use of two synergistic Abilities, which is good but semi-boring.  It being a Minion and Last Blossom however, opens up avenues of play which are potentially interesting, and I'll wager not entirely above under-powered.  I personally view the Jorogumo as interesting, and successful design.  Or interaction between Lynch's Ace in the Hole with any number of models which can make use of this, most recently like the weird Torokage + Lust + Lynch Wambo-nonbo that tries to draw your deck.  Things that give space for players to search out interactions that they find compelling.  I doubt that Lynch list is particularly competitive, but it's funny and interesting at the very least.  Although this leaves most models with the "Looks good to me!" rating, by my design ideas.  There are probably a few that are a bit underwhelming, I think Levi in general does a bit too much for his own good, just from a design stand-point (Not even regarding power level), so he feels more scattered, and doesn't always have an interesting synergy besides "I said I wanna hire Constructs, so I will.", so you know.

Granted, my mentality stems from admiring the designs of Magic: The Gathering, where a 4/5 vanilla for 7CmC could exist as a "bad card" and highlight the strength of a 3/2 Flier for 6CmC.  Essentially their design allows for duffs and good things, in an acceptable way (We all know there are bad cards), but miniatures are fairly frowned upon for having duff models.  Plus I feel that there is less unique design space between any given set of models (Most have been playing in the same area) that is common ground, where as unique Abilities are usually seen on a single model or two.  There just isn't the same breadth of design space to throw out the mediocre and for that to be ok.  But there are like, the Exorcist from Guild, who punish the Undead trait, and that is interesting, but it's not a focus across the board (Not everything is trying to focus on Undead as a design point).  So in that sense, it's harder to see the interesting interactions through the lens of the Factions in quite as straight forward of a way as a new set of Magic does.

 

But honestly, for the sake of power level, I think Wyrd does rather beautifully with Malifaux, in regards to making it easy enough for two players to pick up a handful of models and not have one be entirely steamrolled by the other every time.  Assuming generally similar player skill, and not trying to force the strongest choices possible, most crews can earn VP (With the right scheme choices made), and stand a chance of winning a match.  So I think the game overall comes out as successful in that regard, at least IMO.

But individual models, more in line with your idea, seem hard to say are strictly balanced or not, because often it comes off as a Rock-Paper-Scissors type deal, where they are really good in a situation (Arguably OP at that goal) but aren't good in other situations (Arguably UP at everything else), so they come off as mediocre, or aren't hired as frequently as "has less weaknesses" models, or "Excels too much to leave behind" type models.  Then the real UP models are regarded as the ones who simply don't call Rock, Paper OR Scissors when the time comes, and they just freeze up and do nothing, so people regard them as being truly underwhelming.

[solkan]

One of the difficulties is a variance in how different people evaluate the effectiveness of "situational" models and upgrades.

Suppose there was a X SS model "The Leveticus Slayer" that only did one thing, it buried Leveticus, killed him, and then set his card on fire, and had no other effect on any other model in the game.  So the usefulness of the model is going to depend entirely:

1.  The chances that your opponent is playing Outcasts in general.

2.  The chances that your opponent is playing Leveticus.

In the regular play format, you can make your choice to take the Leveticus Slayer when you know the answer to #1, and the answer to #2 is "There are 8 possible masters, one of which is Leveticus". 

How do you figure out what X should be for that model?  Is there even a reasonable value that you can assign to X?  Do you go with the expected value (probability of Leveticus times the value of a dead Leveticus and a burning card) or the value if you guessed correctly so that if you guess wrong that's playing X SS down?

But what happens if instead of having no other effect against anything else, you give the Leveticus Slayer the stat line of an 8SS henchman?  You pay X points, if Leveticus doesn't show up you get 8SS worth of value, if Leveticus does show up you get the full XSS value for your model while you watch Leveticus's card burn. 

Most of them aren't that specifically hyperbolic in their focus, but Malifaux has that sort of model where it's a Y SS model with Z SS worth of 'might be useful' abilities. 

[admiralvorkraft]

In an attempt to answer op's question. Guild Pathfinders are flexible, powerful and interesting but require resources to reach their potential.

On the Master level, Nicodem gets summoning right - it's a potent, flexible tool that requires high investment, but he also brings a number of interesting non-summoning options to the table.

Also, I really like the two faces of McMourning, both thematically and practically. I may be in a minority there, but I like it.

Note the lack of belles/Austringers/emissaries in the list.

[lusciousmccabe]

Sorry to go off on yet another tangent but I was thinking the other day that a lot of the reasonable models from wave one have a big flashy ability or action which makes them worth taking, whereas later designs tend to be more 'squashed' with good stats and various abilities/actions but none (usually) that really stand out. It's kind of a continuation of  the trend from 1.5 to 2nd ed where models went from doing one thing ridiculously well to doing a bunch of things pretty well with one specialisation.

So back on topic, some models which I think are good designs and why. 

Candy + Iggy - they both have synergy with Pandora, but together can bring that synergy to other crews. Their combo is very good but not unavoidable and they are still good if you can't pull it off all the time.  

Tannen + Graves - more or less for the same reasons as above. I think Graves is probably a bit too easy to take as an accelerator for any crew and I'm not a huge fan of the Tannen Teddy maching either. As a duo who can go in any crew I think they are a good design, considered individually they're more hit or miss for me. Also, not a huge fan of (0) actions that do nothing most of the time as a design choice. 

Waldgeists - it's a tree that is hard to get rid of and performs that way in most every game. Nice synergy with various masters, good options for exploiting terrain and a lot of good abilties but none without their counter.

The Depleted - similar to above, although I think they are probably slightly ahead of the power curve. I like that they aren't an auto-pick for anyone but are very strong in a brilliance heavy crew, either with Lynch or without.

The Illuminated - people rave about them but I've found they're mostly a solid investment for 7 SS. Nice to have a strong beater option as a minion.

Death Marshalls - I think they're one of those models who is subpar overall but Pinebox is so strong that it makes them worthwhile. I think I prefer the more compressed balance option but in this case they turned out fairly equal. 

Silurids - they're kind of awful but people take them because of Leap. They seem more like a v1.5 design since you would only take them for 7SS when the scenario screams out for it, but people do that so I think they work.

Von Schill - he's great for his crew and sort of boring. No-one is disappointed with how he performs and he doesn't blitz the other crew if left to his own devices.

There are plenty more and I might stick them up later but I was about to start leafing through cards and realised this wall of text is illegible enough as is. 

 

[daniello_s]

My favorite 'power' model is Rusty Alyce. She costs 10SS but she is excellent combination of solid Df, whooping Wp, fast legs (Wk6 baby! ;)), deadly gun and mechanical arm plus no charge zone for enemy. Thanks to this combination of pros she can find a place in any crew.

On second place I would put Johan and third would be for Ashes & Dust/Freikorps Trapper.

[lusciousmccabe]

17 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

On second place I would put Johan and third would be for Ashes & Dust/Freikorps Trapper.

I'm afraid these two are poster-boys for 'overpowered'.

Particularly Johan, not only is he better than anything else for the cost in Outcasts, he's pretty much worth taking for an extra stone in any crew in the game, even without being able to use half his card. 

[daniello_s]

29 minutes ago, lusciousmccabe said:

I'm afraid these two are poster-boys for 'overpowered'.

Particularly Johan, not only is he better than anything else for the cost in Outcasts, he's pretty much worth taking for an extra stone in any crew in the game, even without being able to use half his card. 

I would agree but..

Johan dies fast even with his HtK. I don't recall single game where I haven't lost him near turn 3 or 4. He is slow and his condition removal comes at the price of 1AP. Is he strong option? Yes, definitely. Is he over-powered? Don't think so.

As for Freikorps Trapper - I consider him on the same level as Katanaka Sniper or even December Acolyte. Both latter costs 1SS more but are more capable in melee and I don't think they are over-powered.

[lusciousmccabe]

Yeah, I suppose on the Trapper it's more that his competition in faction is a bit lack-luster and being a mercenary means he tends to crop up a lot.

As for Johan we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one .

 

[daniello_s]

Agreed that if there was some competition for Trapper in the faction he wouldn't be commonly considered as above the normal power level.

As for Johan - if he was for 7SS I wouldn't cry too much

 

[Math Mathonwy]

2 hours ago, daniello_s said:

My favorite 'power' model is Rusty Alyce. She costs 10SS but she is excellent combination of solid Df, whooping Wp, fast legs (Wk6 baby! ;)), deadly gun and mechanical arm plus no charge zone for enemy. Thanks to this combination of pros she can find a place in any crew.

On second place I would put Johan and third would be for Ashes & Dust/Freikorps Trapper.

Which models do you consider overpowered in the Outcasts? Or is it a faction made up of only balanced and underpowered models?

[daniello_s]

1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Which models do you consider overpowered in the Outcasts? Or is it a faction made up of only balanced and underpowered models?

Master wise: Levi is overpowered. Especially when he can get two Waifs for free. Rest of the masters is ok including Hamelin

Henchman wise: i don't think there is an issue with any model here.

Enforcer wise: A&D looks too strong at first sight although it comes with whooping price so there is kind of balance here. Johan is strong too but as I said before it doesn't take much to take him out of the game. Rest of the enforcers looks fine as they are.

Minions: Trapper could really enjoy some competition here as he is strongest choice although not best against every faction. Obedient Wretch could be limited to Nihilist leader only as she might bring a bit unhealthy advantage over the game. On the other hand she did perform well in about half of my games I used her only, mostly when Hamelin was a master. 

What i think is most OP thing in Outcasts is Oathkeeper upgrade. Rare 1 would be enough IMO.

[daniello_s]

P.S. After tonight's game I can add to over-powered list Levi+Hodgepodge Effigy combo. Quite often it is at least demoralizing to my opponents when I kill 2 or 3 of his models, summon 2 Abominations and recycle 2/3 soulstones on the top of that

[Omenbringer]

On 6/25/2016 at 4:11 PM, Fetid Strumpet said:

 I was curious about what models (Masters, or any other station) the community regards the most successful designs. Those that are just... Powered, right at about the perfect balance point of Malifaux.

Let me clarify, I'm not speaking about what might be considered the amazing models. I'm not talking about the auto-includes or the never includes. I'm specifically speaking about what models the community thinks Wyrd got the balance just right on, and specially why.

I think Som'er is one of the most successful designs, aside from the loss of his Skeeters being able to access Sooey! (this was a somewhat major blow that I argue wasn't necessary). His summoning is likely the most balanced in the game.

[Da Git]

I would put Lilith down as a perfect example of a "powered" Master.  She's super interesting, has lots of different playstyles from game to game (even turn to turn, or within an activation!) and none of them are broken (they're powerful, but she's a master, they should be!)

For a cheap Minion, I think the Witchling Stalkers and Komainu are good examples of a cheapish beater minion & Crooligans/Terror Tots good examples of a Scheme runner minion.  All have good tools to see the job done and are really interesting and have some good synergies within their Faction.

On the whole, I think most things are "powered".  There are a few outliers which in which I'd probably include Levy & Kirai as well as probably the rat engine (not necessarily OP, but looks really unfun... ) otherwise I think most things are within maybe 1/2 one soulstaone of where they should be (for example, Chiaki/10T Brother is probably 1/2ss too cheap & Torakage/High/Fermented River Monks are probably 1/2ss too much), so really if they were going to do a major overhaul I really think it would just require a few minor tweaks to a lot of models.

[Tawg]

11 minutes ago, Da Git said:

Witchling Stalkers and Komainu are good examples of a cheapish beater minion

Witchling Stalkers, like... those things that come with Sonnia's crew box?  I thought they were primarily brought by the Guild players for Condition control.  They are considered beaters?

[admiralvorkraft]

Ml 6, 2/3/5 with automatic burning and a discard trigger (off the top of my head)

They're a great countercharge with Lucius (charging into his aura for positives, he orders them to attack more, stoning for suits to make them explode) or Sonnia, but otherwise I don't tend to get a lot of work out of them because their short threat range (Wk 4, Cg 6, Rg 1) makes them mediocre offensive pieces.

[Munindk]

It might be hard to seperate him from his Belles but I think Seamus works exactly as intended. In the fluff he's a creepy serial killer that feeds on fear and pops up unexpectedly and he plays that way on the table.

[D_acolyte]

Shoot I totally missed this topic, I tend to associate power or putting a model in a tier with the penetration or the model in the communities games. It sort of like saying the more often a model is taken between X player in Y numbers of games the more powerful or the higher tier the model is. For instance, Nekima is often considered powerful and high tier this to me is the same as saying that Nekima has a way of working into a higher percentage of games then other models. The issue with using this is then when an introduction of a new model comes out and causes a sudden change, is that change because a model is new or because the model is good. To an extent you can not know this till half a year to a full year after the models release.

For instance a Mature Nephilim and Nekima are very similar but till Nekima came out her "role" was field by the Mature Nephilim and after she came out we saw a change in the numbers of Mature Nephilim in games. Sense then Nekima has taken the spot of the Mature Nephilim in many lists I have seen, so she by being taken more often is more powerful then the Mature Nephilim.... It sort of like Darwin's "fittest" referring to the number of whelps an animal have and not there actual fitness in the fact that it not always as easy as just stats.