At the risk of being unpopular, Imbued Energies needs to go.

[Fog]

There.  I've said it.  

The upgrade is too good.  The benefits it gives for one soulstone are amazing and it's drowning out other choices for upgrades as well as design space for further upgrades.  Oathkeeper, too.  It's rare to encounter a competitive Arcanist or Outcast list that isn't taking the upgrade in multiples.  When that's happening something needs to be done.

When an upgrade sees as much play as IE, it hurts the game in several ways.  Lists become more homogenized as you begin seeing three copies of the upgrade in every list.  Making newer upgrades stronger so they can compete with IE would be power creep coming in hard.  Every new release needs to be designed with concern over addiional AP.  The game becomes stagnated and design becomes bogged down.

I'm guilty of overusing this upgrade.  I know many of you feel the same way.  It's time to admit this is bad for the game.

 

[Rogue1]

Oddly enough I have found that as I get better at the game I take those upgrades less often rather than more.  So while I wouldn't necessarily cry over them changing or outright removal I am not entirely sure its necessary.  

In fact I think recalled training may be a bigger offender with it applying to all flips (rather than all duels) which on the right model, like a master, can result in an effective 3 AP spent as focus.

[Douglas Scoundrels]

I haven't played with it a ton, but what you say makes sense. Any suggestions for a fix? Increased cost? Remove the card-drawing portion?

[FertileSpade]

i use it in most every list. Blessed of December with IE = 22" movement in one activation. that said other factions have crazy AP sources as well right (not necessarily upgrades)? i could see dialing back all extra AP sources a little as a potential improvement for the game. extra AP allows for imprecise activations still achieving success.

you should definitely check with the cool kids before posting heretical ideologies. you risk ostracism. 

[SurreyLee]

Powerful, yes, overly so, potentially (in the right hands in the right situation) but as commented, all factions have similar things. The game is fairly balanced and IE's in its current format are part of that. 

Okay, seeing a Howard Langston heading towards your master with IE and Assassinate in the pool is frustrating, but there are counters etc to all these things. 

1ss for 1 extra AP....once, isn't that bad. 

 

[Fog]

I'm not saying it's overpowering in a vacuum.  I don't think it is.

What I am saying is that it's drowning out other options.  I consistently hear "I like this upgrade, but I can't take it because OK/IE is just better."  

I don't want to see things reach a game state where three models on each side in every game have the same upgrade, and I'm worried that's where things are headed.  "Which three models have sac fast?" should not be the first question I ask after sitting across the table from somebody.  It's boring, it's bad for model viability, and it's already oversaurated.

[Adran]

Prehaps it needs reducing to rare 1? I'm probably an imbued energies abuser. After I've got a cache of 4 or 5, I'm likely to fill up on IE slots

[solkan]

But I've only ever used Imbued Energies for the "You killed me, I'm going to draw four more cards and come back for my revenge!" 

"Discard this upgrade and a card to gain fast", maybe?

 

[D_acolyte]

I skip it for Imbued Protection, DF6 or 7 is really nice.

[decker_cky]

If you want to fix it, make it (and oathkeeper and recalled training) 2SS. Still useful, but it tightens the soulstones available for the crew a bit more. 

[FertileSpade]

Adran's rare 1 idea is good. i don't think it becomes a negative play experience for your opponent until it's done multiple times. Unless it's Howard and you give him reactivate to boot. but now that i think of it the Blessed with its' trigger to attack non constructs again and again combined with IE can be crazy if you have suites in hand.

If they cuddled it I would want to see other factions' AP factories cuddled as well.

[bertmac]

I think imbued energies/oathkeeper and recalled training are the best general upgrades available. Certainly think guild could do with something similar but ressers and neverborn have other ways of handing out fast and gremlins have ridiculous amounts of AP anyway. I use it quite regularly but only really in place of a totem or additional stones. 

I don't think it is gamebreaking enough to need to be taken out!

[MagicGis]

I think it depends on what you would do with the free stones if the upgrade would not exist.

 

If the answer would be... I would increase my cache to have more flexible soulstones ...its ok. Than I rather play against 5 stones and 2 Imbued so some fast comes into play more variance than playing against 7 stones.

 

If the answer is I would have taken this other upgrade or this model never anybody uses...that would mean you are right and it takes out valuable options from the game.

[admiralvorkraft]

I'd rather play against an arcanist/outcast list with three extra AP then any random Gremlin list with reckless on everything and two slop haulers. This is a game of resource management, and anything that buys additional resources is hugely powerful, yes that means that Imbued Energies and Arcane Reservoir are all over the place, yes it can be boring. I wouldn't go so far as saying it "needs to go," but like any crutch, making the conscious choice to not take it is worthwhile.

In Guild I run a maximum of one Austringer, in Arcanists I usually only take one copy of IE. Does that hamstring me competitively? I think I do a good enough job of that at other points in the game that it doesn't make much difference

[Breng77]

It is funny I rarely take it.  I find having it ends up with me overextending at some point win a key model.  

[Postmortem]

 

If they cuddled it I would want to see other factions' AP factories cuddled as well.

Agree.

I agree with the original point of the thread, but it is most certainly not an upgrade in a vacuum. Other factions would have to pay the price as well.

If it HAD to be cuddled, I would rather see the cost raised to 2 than made rare 1.

Edited November 7, 2015 by RuntotheHills

[Postmortem]

Although on top of the metal gamin cuddle (which I agree with), you are likely to have a riot on your hands.

[Bengt]

Imbued Energies is good, but I don't think it's earth shattering. The real reason that we see so many of it is, in my opinion, that the remaining Arcanist general upgrades that can be taken by non-Leaders are pretty specialized. They can be good, but only in certain situations, that may not be under your control, depending either on the opponents crew composition or their playstyle. Imbued Energies is always going to be at least somewhat useful, making it safe to take it.

General upgrades:

Imbued Protection - can be useful for things like Bodyguard, Entourage. More expensive.

Recharge Soulstones - only useful on a model that is going to spend a lot of time close to the enemy. Can't be taken by Enforcers.

Warding Runes - only useful against crews with a certain type of casting actions. Can only be taken by Henchmen. Requires a substantial investment to get the most out of it.

Killswitch/Decoy - only useful on a model that you plan to sacrifice, hindered by the fact that you can't finish it off yourself if it sits in the perfect spot.

Almost general as there are quite a lot of M&SU models:

Powered by Flame - only useful if you have several constructs. More Expensive.

Bleeding Edge Tech - only useful if you have several minion constructs or the opponent has Ca actions and you plan to get in his face.

[Anixma]

I don't see it that unbalanced. I think that it's a useful upgrade, but it is not a no brainer/every situation one. I think it does what it was designed for. Upgrades like recalled training are probably even better, but I think they are fine too.

[dgraz]

I think Bengt really nailed it. IE is always going to function, it's reliable....the other Upgrades are more of a crapshoot or very specialized.

[paxmiles]

Rather than increasing cost, I suggest more models with abilities like Rasputina's Child of December upgrade, which inflict more impressive damage/effects against upgraded models.

Killswitch/Decoy - only useful on a model that you plan to sacrifice, hindered by the fact that you can't finish it off yourself if it sits in the perfect spot

.

Easily the best upgrade. Fun, easy to implement, cheap, effective, plus doesn't use any upgrade slots. Really wish Outcasts had an equivalent.

And no, not only useful on models you plan to sacrifice (as in a sacrificial piece). Yeah, that's the obvious function, but it can be psychologically impressive, as well as a useful contingency on models that aren't supposed to die and whose loss will be costly to your plans.

Kill switch can also be used without the decoys, and just flatly inform your opponent that model "x" will explode if/when he dies. Some opponents will alter plans to cope with it, as 2 damage which can't be reduced can be very irritating to some unit types, especially as it doesn't use an opposed flip (and so doesn't allow defensive triggers).

Oh, and it can be especially impressive on models that normally explode when they die (5 damage on a dead Ice Golem, for example).

Edited November 8, 2015 by paxmiles

[Bengt]

 

Killswitch/Decoy - only useful on a model that you plan to sacrifice, hindered by the fact that you can't finish it off yourself if it sits in the perfect spot

.

Easily the best upgrade. Fun, easy to implement, cheap, effective, plus doesn't use any upgrade slots. Really wish Outcasts had an equivalent.

And no, not only useful on models you plan to sacrifice (as in a sacrificial piece). Yeah, that's the obvious function, but it can be psychologically impressive, as well as a useful contingency on models that aren't supposed to die and whose loss will be costly to your plans.

Kill switch can also be used without the decoys, and just flatly inform your opponent that model "x" will explode if/when he dies. Some opponents will alter plans to cope with it, as 2 damage which can't be reduced can be very irritating to some unit types, especially as it doesn't use an opposed flip (and so doesn't allow defensive triggers).

Oh, and it can be especially impressive on models that normally explode when they die (5 damage on a dead Ice Golem, for example).

To each their own, I consider it weak and not effective for its cost. If you could pull the trigger yourself I would be a little more impressed (well you can with Conditions, but that means adding more moving parts to the plan). A potential psychological effect requires your opponents to be scared of 2 damage...

[paxmiles]

To each their own, I consider it weak and not effective for its cost. If you could pull the trigger yourself I would be a little more impressed (well you can with Conditions, but that means adding more moving parts to the plan). A potential psychological effect requires your opponents to be scared of 2 damage...

It's 2 damage that can't be reduced to every model in a 2" pulse for 1ss and it doesn't occupy an upgrade slot.

And no, they aren't scared of 2 damage per say, they are looking at the threat a model that if slain in close quarters, will likely deal 2 damage to their attacker. Can they kill your model without sacrificing their model? Sure, turn 1, 2 damage isn't a big deal, but if it's on something that will last, how impressive is 2 damage on turn 3 or 4? And is it 2 damage to 1 model, or 2 damage to each of several models?

And you don't need this on fragile models. Ironsides, for example, could take killswitch. It only costs 1ss and doesn't compete for upgrade slots. Ironsides is very likely to survive most games, and if she does die, it will likely be in melee, and likely against an opponent which is wounded already.

I had a game where my railgolem had the kill switch. Rail golem is a great example, as it will likely be engaged in melee and will last, but may die during the game, and when it dies, it will likely be in melee. 

Those two are examples of models you'd want the decoys for, as informing the opponent of killswitch would keep them away.

Cassandra, on the other hand, could inform the opponent she'd explode, and use the Killswitch just to make the opponent reconsider sending models into her explosion range (which is the range she probably doesn't want to be in anyway).

Edited November 8, 2015 by paxmiles

[Bengt]

To each their own, I consider it weak and not effective for its cost. If you could pull the trigger yourself I would be a little more impressed (well you can with Conditions, but that means adding more moving parts to the plan). A potential psychological effect requires your opponents to be scared of 2 damage...

It's 2 damage that can't be reduced to every model in a 2" pulse for 1ss and it doesn't occupy an upgrade slot.

And no, they aren't scared of 2 damage per say, they are looking at the threat a model that if slain in close quarters, will likely deal 2 damage to their attacker. Can they kill your model without sacrificing their model? Sure, turn 1, 2 damage isn't a big deal, but if it's on something that will last, how impressive is 2 damage on turn 3 or 4? And is it 2 damage to 1 model, or 2 damage to each of several models?

And you don't need this on fragile models. Ironsides, for example, could take killswitch. It only costs 1ss and doesn't compete for upgrade slots. Ironsides is very likely to survive most games, and if she does die, it will likely be in melee, and likely against an opponent which is wounded already.

I had a game where my railgolem had the kill switch. Rail golem is a great example, as it will likely be engaged in melee and will last, but may die during the game, and when it dies, it will likely be in melee. 

Those two are examples of models you'd want the decoys for, as informing the opponent of killswitch would keep them away.

Cassandra, on the other hand, could inform the opponent she'd explode, and use the Killswitch just to make the opponent reconsider sending models into her explosion range (which is the range she probably doesn't want to be in anyway).

Yeah, I get that you like it for some reason. It's still an upgrade that is dependent on your opponents crew build and playstyle. E.g. against a ranged and/or control crew it can be made completely irrelevant; an unflappable opponent wont let its presence affect their pursuit of victory points; a canny opponent might blow it up among your own models.

[paxmiles]

Yeah, I get that you like it for some reason. It's still an upgrade that is dependent on your opponents crew build and playstyle. E.g. against a ranged and/or control crew it can be made completely irrelevant; an unflappable opponent wont let its presence affect their pursuit of victory points; a canny opponent might blow it up among your own models.

True, though as Arcanists, you have a pretty broad selection of units immune to it. Anything immune to damage from pulse effects is immune to killswitch.

And as for enemies that single it out, that is the entire point of the Decoys. 3 targets instead of 1, makes it a bit more challenging to control or destroy.

And ultimately, it's a 1ss upgrade that occupies no slots. Even if it does nothing all game, it isn't preventing you from doing anything. You can equip the model with whatever normal upgrades you'd take.

Anyway, I do agree, it is playstyle dependent. Not so much the list builds you suggest, but more that it would require a certain personality to make good use of - nothing lacking in a personality that can't use it, just a different way of playing.

The only 2 times I'd argue killswitch to be a liability is if the opponent is Rasputina with Child of December (and your killswitch unit isn't immune to paralyze), or if the killswitched unit is intended to sacrifice itself (like myranda) as it would make that choice harder for you, the player with the upgrade.

Rest of the time, it's just an added tool in the toolbox, and a cheap, multipurpose tool at that. I envy Arcanists for this upgrade.