Self Loathing/Hate and Blasts

[Math Mathonwy]

I agree with Myyrä and Adran. The rules define blasts as being a part of the damage (effect) when they are printed on the damage track. And I have been known to take Pere Ravage and I don't play Pandora.

[zFiend]

I'd argue that as it states no other effects, and blasts are an effect, Pandora wouldn't be able to put out blasts.

[vulky]

Damage is an effect, blast are effects, but they are both in "the printed damage results" which Pandora uses. Everything but the "printed damage results" is ignored, but the blast symbols are printed in the damage results as much as are the numbers.

My view ofc.

 

Also it kind of feels like it makes sense. Pandora makes you hit/shoot youself (Self harm), why would a Lazarus' grenade launcher's grenades literally stop exploding only because they where shot directly into the ground?(or face). Ofc this is completely unrelated to rules, but still worth considering I think.

[NeilH]

To be honest everyone here is using their own interpretation of the rules to suit their view.

It's obviously not 100% clear. I'm a Pandora player and have always played it that no blasts occur, but i'm starting to think the other way after reading this post. Seems weird papa locos dynamite wouldn't explode if he hit himself with it.

It's not difficult to see why there's confusion, were the blasts intended to not happen by the designers or were they just wanting to make sure that apart from triggers, things like joss' ignoring everything weren't to be applied (which I assume must also be an effect).

[Bodiless]

I play Pandora, and up until now I have not placed blasts when using her abilities. Not entirely sure it has come up either, but no matter. But I have say I also find the place blasts argument to be the most convincing. The blast symbols are *right there* in the damage results. The interpretation that they are somehow a separate thing from the damage despite being printed within the slash marks definitely strikes me as the less straightforward interpretation.  

[Myth]

jonahmaul, on 16 Mar 2015 - 05:38 AM, said:

Effects are a defined game term in Malifaux.  You have written how damage is an effect of an action (page 38) and I have quoted page 50 which also states that Blasts are an effect.  These are two clear parts of the rulebook where effects are defined.  Pandora's Self-Loating states that you apply the printed damage effects (i.e. the numbers that are on the cards which are the damage spread ('a damage flip is indicated by three numbers separated by slashes with the amount of damage dealt depending on the value of the card flipped' page 46)) and 'no other effects or triggers from the chosen action are applied' (the Blast which is defined on page 50 as being an effect of (usually) damage).

 

For me, the key wording in those quotes is "no other effects". If an effect is part of the "printed damage results", it would still be applied. This includes both the damage the target takes, as well as any blasts generated - both of those are effects, but they are ones that are included in the printed damage. Hence, I'm in the camp that believes Pandora can cause Blasts.

 

Here is some other key quotes for me, from the section on Blasts:

 

- "Some effects (usually damage) contain a blast symbol."

- "If a blast is part of a damage flip..."

 

This all says to me that blasts are considered part of the printed damage. There is nothing to indicate that the numbers in the damage spread somehow are the real damage effect, but the blasts in that damage spread are instead something else entirely.

 

That said, I certainly agree that it isn't clearly defined in the rulebook and can see how one would arrive at a different conclusion. But for me, Self Loathing would indeed drop blasts, going by both the letter and the spirit of the rules.

[asrian]

For me, the key wording in those quotes is "no other effects". If an effect is part of the "printed damage results", it would still be applied. This includes both the damage the target takes, as well as any blasts generated - both of those are effects, but they are ones that are included in the printed damage. Hence, I'm in the camp that believes Pandora can cause Blasts.

 

Here is some other key quotes for me, from the section on Blasts:

 

- "Some effects (usually damage) contain a blast symbol."

- "If a blast is part of a damage flip..."

 

This all says to me that blasts are considered part of the printed damage. There is nothing to indicate that the numbers in the damage spread somehow are the real damage effect, but the blasts in that damage spread are instead something else entirely.

 

That said, I certainly agree that it isn't clearly defined in the rulebook and can see how one would arrive at a different conclusion. But for me, Self Loathing would indeed drop blasts, going by both the letter and the spirit of the rules.

And see, my view of that is opposite as Blasts are printed along with the numerical value of the damage for ease of reference when determining how much damage the blast effects will do. If an attack did 1/2/3 and poison +1 you would consider it two separate abilities. If they chose instead to symbolize it as 1P+1/2P+1/3P+1 it would still be two abilities, just written differently. If you're going to say that because it's not an additional separate effect because it's written on the damage line, then Pandora copying a December Acolyte (who has Slow built in to every attack) would also copy the Slow. 

[jonahmaul]

And see, my view of that is opposite as Blasts are printed along with the numerical value of the damage for ease of reference when determining how much damage the blast effects will do. If an attack did 1/2/3 and poison +1 you would consider it two separate abilities. If they choice instead to symbolize it as 1p+1/2P+1/3P+1 it would still be two abilities, just written differently. If you're going to say that because it's not an addition, separate effect because it's written on the damage track, then Pandora copying a December Acolyte (who has Slow built in to every attack) would also be copied. 

Agree.  The wording is not good (though I draw attention to Self-Harm over Self-Loathing again) but based on other abilities etc. in the game then it would be consistent that the Blasts don't get placed.

 

Unfortunately it's just going to be a circular argument until Wyrd give an official ruling on it.  My group will continue to play it without Blasts until then.

[asrian]

Agree.  The wording is not good (though I draw attention to Self-Harm over Self-Loathing again) but based on other abilities etc. in the game then it would be consistent that the Blasts don't get placed.

 

Unfortunately it's just going to be a circular argument until Wyrd give an official ruling on it.  My group will continue to play it without Blasts until then.

Same for my group. No blasts for Pandora until Wyrd makes a statement.

[Adran]

And see, my view of that is opposite as Blasts are printed along with the numerical value of the damage for ease of reference when determining how much damage the blast effects will do. If an attack did 1/2/3 and poison +1 you would consider it two separate abilities. If they chose instead to symbolize it as 1P+1/2P+1/3P+1 it would still be two abilities, just written differently. If you're going to say that because it's not an additional separate effect because it's written on the damage line, then Pandora copying a December Acolyte (who has Slow built in to every attack) would also copy the Slow. 

 

If the decembers acolyte had a Damage Track of 2+slow/3+Slow/5+slow then Pandora would give it slow. Its not written that way, so she doesn't. The phrase in the decembers acolyte that gives out slow isn't part of the damage track, and so Pandora doesn't use it. But if it was part of the damage track (As I wrote earlier) then she would give it out.

[Myth]

asrian, on 16 Mar 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:

And see, my view of that is opposite as Blasts are printed along with the numerical value of the damage for ease of reference when determining how much damage the blast effects will do. If an attack did 1/2/3 and poison +1 you would consider it two separate abilities. If they chose instead to symbolize it as 1P+1/2P+1/3P+1 it would still be two abilities, just written differently. If you're going to say that because it's not an additional separate effect because it's written on the damage line, then Pandora copying a December Acolyte (who has Slow built in to every attack) would also copy the Slow. 

 

Just to clarify, my argument isn't about it being on the same line as the damage - there are plenty of effects that are listed separately from the damage and clearly wouldn't be applied by Pandora. The issue is that it is included in the printed damage itself, and that the rules for Blasts indicate they are part of the damage flip. Now, it may well be true that it is there for "ease of reference" - but the rules don't say that anywhere, while they do indicate that blasts are part of the "damage effect".

 

The point about Self Harm having different wording ("damage results" vs "printed damage results") definitely muddles the water even worth. But I'm not sure how much it does so. The question ultimately comes down to this: Is the Blast part of the "damage results", or is it one of the "other effects" of an attack?

 

For me, the rules on Blasts only seem to support it being directly part of damage. But they never come out and state it directly, and so it does seem unlikely this will be resolved convincingly without direct word from on high.

[ilogico]

I think we should wait for an official ruling by Wyrd people.

 

As a Neverborn player, I am biased towards believing that Pandy can use the blasts, but I understand the opposite point of view.

 

Any word on this, Wyrd?

[jonahmaul]

I think we should wait for an official ruling by Wyrd people.

 

As a Neverborn player, I am biased towards believing that Pandy can use the blasts, but I understand the opposite point of view.

 

Any word on this, Wyrd?

If we are lucky Nathan or Eric might comment here but until it's in the FAQ is doesn't count as official.

[NeilH]

Doesn't even need an FAQ.

Just someone to answer whether it was intended for Pandora to be able to use the blasts from opponents damage profile.

If not fair enough, if so fair enough.

Doesn't need every word on every page and every card to be scrutinised constantly by people with too much time on their hands. It makes people hate the forums and the idiots that live here.

[zFiend]

Doesn't need every word on every page and every card to be scrutinised constantly by people with too much time on their hands. It makes people hate the forums and the idiots that live here.

 

I don't think that's necessary really. 

[NeilH]

It's not the guys like you who give good advice and have a laugh that was directed at. You know the type i'm talking about.

[Lucidicide]

I will make an official ruling: Pandora does, in fact, have an attack that causes damage.

 

You're welcome.

 

 

The FAQ document is the only way to get an official ruling, so figure it out amongst yourselves until that day exists (if ever).

[jonahmaul]

Doesn't even need an FAQ.

Just someone to answer whether it was intended for Pandora to be able to use the blasts from opponents damage profile.

If not fair enough, if so fair enough.

Doesn't need every word on every page and every card to be scrutinised constantly by people with too much time on their hands. It makes people hate the forums and the idiots that live here.

As Aaron's post says though, if it's not in the FAQ then it doesn't count which means people will still argue for/against it even after a game designer has given a ruling in a forum because Wyrd themselves have said that they are not official rulings (which is mad, but a different issue.).

[NeilH]

So we'll play it as she does blast until further notice.

[Fetid Strumpet]

(Full disclosure, Pandora is my 3rd or 4th most played master, but no where close to Molly or Seamus)

 

Agreed. I tended to follow the interpretation that said the blasts were not able to be utilized via Self Loathing and Self Harm. However, I personally feel Myyra has made a good case for why they able to be utilized, according to the rules, and intent. So in any games I officiate that will be the case until such time as a ruling is issued via the FAQ.

 

I can honestly see the arguments for intent on either side of the issue, but only Myyra has put forth valid rules arguments along with it, in my opinion, and I don't often agree with Myyra.

 

That isn't to denigrate the opposing view, just that, at least to me, the argument isn't as strong. Time will tell.

[NeilH]

I initially only got involved in this post as my regular opponent jonahmaul hates Pandora with a passion and the chance to increase his hatred was not to be passed up.

I'd just assumed the rule that she doesn't get blasts was true as I was new to playing her when I was first informed of it. Looking closer is does seem to favour her being able to blast after all.

I think I will keep playing it as no blasts for now to stop 2 of my friends quitting the game due to nerdrage. Any tournaments however I will check with the TO and just go with his stance on it.

[Bengt]

I will make an official ruling: Pandora does, in fact, have an attack that causes damage.

Monk of the Low River disagrees.

[Lucidicide]

Failed wp duel, one damage. I will not be deterred!

[enderwiggin]

Failed wp duel, one damage. I will not be deterred!

That's not an attack, that's an effect.

 

[Myyrä]

That's not an attack, that's an effect.

 

Effect is still not a defined game term. Referring to things as effects is not technically wrong, but the term carries practically no useful information. Anything and everything caused by something is an effect.

 

Carry on.